Mariners 10, Twins 6: Bullpen Blows Up

[Doctor Gast]

9 hours ago, 2wins87 said:

I'm not one to complain about most modern baseball trends, but I think I'm sick of the slider specialist reliever.

Even for guys where it works most of the time, I've just come to really dislike watching 60-70% sliders, constantly trying to get hitters to expand the zone, lots of balls and long counts, with no other pitch to get guys out.

I never really trusted Wisler, Romo I guess was the best possible version of it as a guy who made a career out of it but even he wasn't always the most fun to watch and he did it better than anyone else.

I'm not enjoying Jackson and Okert much this season, who teamed up for an all time ugly inning of just throwing slop pitches. When the hitters didn't chase they had nothing else to go to but a slider in the zone. A 3-2 pitch with no where to put Raleigh, everybody in the world knew it was going to be a slider. If he managed to locate it perfectly in a corner it probably would have been OK, but more often than not, it's going to be a less than perfect execution and it's either a walk or a ball in the seats.

I wouldn't trust Jackson or Okert much either other than low leverage. They sent Alcala down because they were concerned about his usage, just coming off a long injury time off. But they still used him plenty in AAA. I have faith in Alcala but I'd ease him in the super high-leverage situations & limit him to 1 inning which they obviously didn't do. They used all their high-leverage RPs the night before, I'd save at least one for tonight. Here I'll advocate our need for long relief again. Long relief helps us from over using our short relief RPs especially high leverage. 

[TwinsDr2021]

Last 5 games, Starting pitchers 28 innings, 8 earned runs, ERA 2.57,

Last 5 games, Relief pitchers 17 innings, 23 earned runs, ERA 12.17

And the Twins are 3 - 2,

[Doctor Gast]

Ober pitched a good game. Looks like the hitting problem is solved, basically. The outcome & the BP wasn't what the doctor ordered. I was also thinking even before the Jeffers's misplay, that in a game like this it'd be a good idea to put Vazquez in at catcher & leave Jeffers in at DH as a defensive move. 

[chpettit19]

34 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Ober pitched a good game. Looks like the hitting problem is solved, basically. The outcome & the BP wasn't what the doctor ordered. I was also thinking even before the Jeffers's misplay, that in a game like this it'd be a good idea to put Vazquez in at catcher & leave Jeffers in at DH as a defensive move. 

You can't switch a guy from a position to DH in the middle of the game. That foul ball was a bad result, but I find it hard to fault Jeffers for not being able to see the ball. Definitely hurt, but it's just a freak thing that happens sometimes. 

[Doctor Gast]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

You can't switch a guy from a position to DH in the middle of the game. That foul ball was a bad result, but I find it hard to fault Jeffers for not being able to see the ball. Definitely hurt, but it's just a freak thing that happens sometimes. 

I didn't know that. IMO bad rule. I wasn't faulting Jeffers.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Doctor Gast said:

I didn't know that. IMO bad rule. I wasn't faulting Jeffers.

It will be interesting to see if any of the rules around the DH change now that it's a fulltime part of the game in both leagues. 

Didn't mean to make it sound like you were faulting Jeffers, sorry if that's how it came across. I was just adding my own narrative to that whole situation.

[Doctor Gast]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

It will be interesting to see if any of the rules around the DH change now that it's a fulltime part of the game in both leagues. 

Didn't mean to make it sound like you were faulting Jeffers, sorry if that's how it came across. I was just adding my own narrative to that whole situation.

I've caught some, that play is extremely difficult, although to some it looks easy. I marvel that catchers do make that play as often as they do.

[Schmoeman5]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

You mean the media? They ask him about both his pen usage and pinch hitting. Immediately after the game they were all posting on Twitter, etc. about Rocco saying it was an easy decision to pull Ober tonight because he just didn't have his stuff. I don't watch post-game pressers, but the media asks him about these things.

I know he comments on his pitching and bullpen usage.  I must have missed the pinch hitting. As to the pinch hitting. If it's 7th inning or later. It's not so bad. But this is literally the 3rd time where Margot and Farmer have come up for 3 PA by ph them too early. And facing a RH pitcher thus nullifying any advantage he's trying to get

[Patzky]

10 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I would conservatively estimate Rocco gets outmanaged 3 times per week.

Chalk one up for this week.

Fairness, he made all the right moves Friday and Monday. Guess that's technically spread over two weeks though. 😉

[Otaknam]

This loss is on Baldelli. Ober was cruising and Baldelli took him out after 82 pitches because his computer analytics told him to, again showing he doesn’t trust his starters and manages by algorithm rather than by trust and instinct. Fire Rocco!

[Florida Flash]

8 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

Margot and Santana are really disappointing. And Margot is a waste of a roster spot. Bring up Kiersey.  Martin keeps proving he is an IF playing in the OF 

Who is making these calls? Rocco or the FO that doesnt want to look like the fools they are by grossly overpaying guys that are barely hanging on.

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, Karbo said:

The trade for Margot was a total waste of a good prospect!

They got back a prospect who is essentially equal to the one they sent to the Dodgers in the trade for Margot. If Margot is a waste, it's just cash.

Margot's dropoff defensively is concerning and the sprint speed metrics agree he is slower. It points to an overall decline in athletic ability. That might be due to an injury but it means he's not likely to contribute. His batting numbers keep getting worse, which is another bad sign. I'd rather see the lefty hitters get the at-bat and stay in the game than see Margot pinch hit for them.

[mikelink45]

Wouldn't Tommy Pham look good on this team?  

[Guest]

I expected Sands to get another inning after 13 pitches in his first.

Jackson's lost a couple feet off his fast ball from last year.  It's pretty clear he's past his use-by date.  Topa in, Jackson to IL or DFA'd.  They must fix the back half of the bullpen quickly.  Stewart to IL really hurts.

Keirsey's coming on.  I love Martin, but jeez, learning to find the outfield wall first isn't rocket science.

Patiently waiting for a Brooks Lee sighting.... 

[wabene]

16 minutes ago, Otaknam said:

This loss is on Baldelli. Ober was cruising and Baldelli took him out after 82 pitches because his computer analytics told him to, again showing he doesn’t trust his starters and manages by algorithm rather than by trust and instinct. Fire Rocco!

Rinse repeat

[DJL44]

Kirilloff started off hot but has a 500 OPS over the last 28 days. I don't blame Baldelli for pinch hitting for Alex but he doesn't really have a better option on the bench. It's too bad Larnach is not able to play the field, he's usually a better defender than Kirilloff.

[DJL44]

13 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

Wouldn't Tommy Pham look good on this team?  

Brandon Belt is still sitting at home.

[Doctor Gast]

38 minutes ago, Florida Flash said:

Who is making these calls? Rocco or the FO that doesnt want to look like the fools they are by grossly overpaying guys that are barely hanging on.

The marching order has always been "Showcase my boys as much as possible, even when it hurts the team"

[LambchoP]

I just do not understand bringing in our worst hitter Margot to PH for fome of our best hitters, especially in the 4th inning? And then pulling Ober after like 84 pitches? Then having Alcala pitch tro innings when he was clearly out of gas...very questionable management decisions lately... I say we cut Margot and call up Keirsey Jr. Would be an immediate upgrade for both offense and defense, seeing as Margot looks completely lost in the outfield

[David Maro]

As I stated before Pham was out there,but no they trade for Margot.Rocco needed to PH Martin over Margot.He looks totally lost at the plate and is 0 for 15 as PHer.When a team scores 6 in a game it should be a win,not a give away lose.

[Doctor Gast]

32 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Kirilloff started off hot but has a 500 OPS over the last 28 days.

What's going on with Kiriloff? He's a better hitter than this.

[jmlease1]

32 minutes ago, Otaknam said:

This loss is on Baldelli. Ober was cruising and Baldelli took him out after 82 pitches because his computer analytics told him to, again showing he doesn’t trust his starters and manages by algorithm rather than by trust and instinct. Fire Rocco!

Any time I see the "spreadsheets and algorithm" comments it's like Miss Othmar on the Peanuts cartoons. because now we're on a pre-determined course that doesn't even have anything to do with the game. 

I think it was a tough decision on Ober. he was effective in the game, but was NOT dominant (I was there, and he wasn't exactly dealing). He got through the 4th 1-2-3 but had a lot of trouble finishing off Garver & Urias. 5th inning was 1-2-3, but had 2 hard-hit balls to left and he had a number of balls hit to the OF last night that were fortunately right at guys. facing the top of the order in the 6th, I don't think it was a bad call to go to Sands. And that one worked out, Sands got through it clean.

While I don't care for Rocco being as aggressive as he is with the bench in the middle innings, the Farmer sub for Julien is justifiable for the improved defense as he came in with the lead. I'm ok with that one. The one that was a poor choice and not particularly justifiable was going to Margot for Larnach. There's no defensive benefit attached to replacing your DH and Larnach is one of our better hitters right now, regardless of the platoon split, and going to Margot that early takes Larnach off the field. While I understand the idea of breaking a game open (and I don't disagree with it, really) going to Margot for Larnach with a runner on second isn't enough of an advantage to make it worth pulling Larnach's bat out of the lineup so early, when you know he's going to come up again. 

leaving Alcala in for a second inning is a tough one: he's pitched multiple innings before, and they seemed to be looking to have him be a guy who could go more than 1 inning. But the real question is whether they should have put that burden on Sands to come out for the 7th, and I think that was the choice that they got wrong. They should have at least asked Sands to come out for the 7th because they would have had options in Okert/Jackson/Alcala to come in had respond if Sands started to wobble, but by the 9th they've already used those up. but this one is more along the lines of "decision that looks bad because the results were sh!t" rather than "horrible process and decision-making". If you can't trust Jackson to face the 5-7 guys in a lineup, then there's no point in having him, and he's been fine in these situations this year. not elite, but a decent veteran option. I mean, who really had Mitch "my legs are so bad no one will let me catch any longer" Garver beating out an infield hit?

Rocco deserves the stick for yanking Larnach for Margot in the 5th, though. Too early to pull a good hitter who has been swinging the bat well for a mediocre hitter who has struggled all season just for the platoon advantage. That's probably the biggest problem I have with Rocco's game management overall, and it went poorly last night.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Schmoeman5 said:

I know he comments on his pitching and bullpen usage.  I must have missed the pinch hitting. As to the pinch hitting. If it's 7th inning or later. It's not so bad. But this is literally the 3rd time where Margot and Farmer have come up for 3 PA by ph them too early. And facing a RH pitcher thus nullifying any advantage he's trying to get

He comments on that, too, but it's nothing that ever makes any of us feel better about it. I don't get the strategy and I don't like the explanations of trying to take advantage of that specific moment.

[Schmoeman5]

40 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

The marching order has always been "Showcase my boys as much as possible, even when it hurts the team"

I'd like to see that memo. So who's giving the marching orders? And who are "my boys"

[RpR]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

Brandon Belt is still sitting at home.

Santana is at First for his fielding; Belt would not have any where to play.

[jmlease1]

26 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

I'd like to see that memo. So who's giving the marching orders? And who are "my boys"

there is no memo, there are no "my boys", there's no mandate like this, it's entirely made up.

[DJL44]

3 minutes ago, RpR said:

Santana is at First for his fielding; Belt would not have any where to play.

Belt's bat would more than make up for the dropoff in defense, especially against RHP. Santana has a 70 OPS+ on the season and a 46 sOPS+ vs RHP. Carlos Correa's glove couldn't make up the gap between that and the 124 OPS+ Belt had last season (142 sOPS+ vs RHP).

[joefish]

11 hours ago, Ted Schwerzler said:

Austin Martin's misplay at the wall was huge. That's definitely a reflection of lack of awareness for a field, and Willi Castro not being a traditional centerfielder.

His hustle single was big, but you can't give up a triple like that.

Did their first baseman really step on the bat and fall on his head?

[LewFordLives]

3 hours ago, wabene said:

Careful what you wish for: .221    .274    .256    .529 OPS   56  OPS+

.256 slugging? Yikes power was the calling card of his strikeout prone bat last year

  

No one said he was Babe Ruth, but he already has 0.6 rWAR (mostly from his defense). Compared to Margot, I would take that.

[Schmoeman5]

28 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

there is no memo, there are no "my boys", there's no mandate like this, it's entirely made up.

Really? Nah. It's gotta be true. If it's posted it's gospel. Right?  😃