Making moves for the playoffs with Angels

[Richie the Rally Goat]

35 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Put the injured player on the 60 day IL.

They could come back for game 4 of the World Series I guess

[GusGus11]

14 minutes ago, dex8425 said:

Giolito is ineligible to receive a QO since he was traded midseason.

Apparently you are only reading my posts and only some of them in this thread haha

Both things you have quoted me on have already been mentioned 

[DJL44]

9 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

If teams pick these guys up, they will need to request waivers on whoever the new person replaced.  Is it possible, that one of those players would have interest for the Twins?  I know that they would not be eligible for the post season, but they may have more value in the long-term if the team sees upside.

If they have long term value they're not likely to make it to the Twins on waivers. Entirely possible the Reds or Marlins lose a player to Oakland or Kansas City as part of this process.

Low hanging fruit on the Marlins roster is probably Jorge Lopez. Don't want him back.

[Brazilian Twins Fan]

What about NYY Bader?

[jaimedude]

Just to be clear, if a player is claimed prior to September 1st are they eligible for a playoff roster spot? 

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, jaimedude said:

Just to be clear, if a player is claimed prior to September 1st are they eligible for a playoff roster spot? 

Any player on the 40 man before that date is eligible.

[whosafraidofluigirussolo]

11 hours ago, lecroy24fan said:

These are revocable waivers. Last week the Halos put Tyler Anderson on waivers and nobody claimed him so he was kept. However if they get rid of all of these players it will knock them under the CBT tax crap, um cap.

Not to get too far into the weeds on this, but the Anderson transaction doesn't imply that these are revocable waivers (which did indeed go away with the second trade deadline, as far as I know.)

The way I understand it (which is probably incomplete), under the old rules with waiver trades, a team could pull its player back from waivers even if another team claimed him. So a team placing a claim was trying to claim the right to negotiate a trade. With the old rules, if the Angels put Anderson on a revocable waiver and (let's say) the Reds won the claim, if they didn't offer a trade the Angels wanted, they would simply pull Anderson off the waiver and keep him. This is why teams put a lot of players on the old revocable waivers, because they could gauge potential trades and there was no risk of losing players for nothing.

So I think the actual current situation with Anderson is an option the Angels had when he cleared a different kind of waiver. On an outright waiver, a team could have claimed him and would owe only his salary for the rest of the year. If no one claims a player on outright, the original team theoretically has the right to keep him in the organization without giving him a 40-man roster spot, except that Anderson should have had enough service time to reject an assignment to the minors.

So assuming he cleared outright waivers, the Angels probably knew he would choose free agency and they'd still owe the rest of his salary, so they just kept him and re-committed the roster spot to him. I'm pretty sure that's a way that a player can be waived and not change teams.

[Cris E]

More details on the plumbing of this from Fangraphs:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/qa-what-the-heck-did-the-angels-and-some-other-teams-just-do/

 

Quote

Teams are forbidden from making claims for the express purpose of blocking other teams from making a claim, so the Yankees could not immediately designate a claimed player for assignment to keep them from the Red Sox with no intent to roster him themselves.

Plus in the comments someone pointed out that teams have 48 hours to claim, which is why it’s done now in time for playoff eligibility on Sept 1.

[Vanimal46]

1 hour ago, SwainZag said:

Have none of you guys played online OOTP leagues before?  This happens with teams almost every season with some soon to be free agent vets.

Everyone assumes it's only playoff hopeful teams who will be claiming as well.  A savvy non contender could very well claim players and try for extensions as well. 

That is a good point. The Cardinals GM already stated on record he’s looking for 3 starting pitchers this winter. They could use their bad record to claim Giolito and buy an exclusive negotiation window after the season. 

[LonelyseatinMOA]

Why do people want Giolito so bad? 

he's been doo doo recently 

[Squirrel]

2 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

No one is going to claim them Sept 1. If you aren’t making the post season you aren’t adding the cost. If you are making the post season, you don’t want to dilute your roster with players that can’t be on the playoff roster.

in other words, a catch and release will cost you the salaries

I feel sorry for the players ... what a sucky business 

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

No one is going to claim them Sept 1. If you aren’t making the post season you aren’t adding the cost. If you are making the post season, you don’t want to dilute your roster with players that can’t be on the playoff roster.

in other words, a catch and release will cost you the salaries

I think there is a very small chance anyone else would claim them if somebody tries a catch and release maneuver, but it's possible somebody who needs a part-time injury filler would make the move just to get them to October, or to a division win instead of a wild card birth. Their appeal goes way, way down if they can't be on your playoff roster, but there's plenty to play for still in September for teams and you have to add 2 guys who won't be on your playoff roster anyways, so it's possible somebody would still claim them. Just a much smaller chance.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

21 minutes ago, LonelyseatinMOA said:

Why do people want Giolito so bad? 

he's been doo doo recently 

Might think with better coaching than the White Sox or Angels could coax a #2 or #3 pitcher value out of him.  This late in the season though would seem difficult to do any major changes of pitching motion, would be all about the pitch sequencing or pitch repertoire tweaks to enhance performance.  

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, Cris E said:

I'm not sure other teams will be pissed any more than if they'd been traded for in July or gathered off waivers in earlier years. Teams can see the spots that the Angels are in and can picture the Why of these moves, and they can see the spot the Marlins are in and can see why they'd grab more than one of these guys. Players move within the scope of the rules every year and there's very little complaining.  I think when FRod was able to be added to the 40 man for the playoffs as a rookie it blew up a little, but that sort of things only happens once every ten years.

On the other hand I do like the Free Puppies image.

I think 1 team being able to claim them all is something that will piss off other teams. They won't be pissed at the Marlins (or whoever did all the claiming), but they'll definitely be pissed that it's something that could happen. The FOs don't get mad at other teams for playing within the rules, they get mad that the rules can give 1 team an advantage that they didn't have the opportunity to take advantage of.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I think there is a very small chance anyone else would claim them if somebody tries a catch and release maneuver, but it's possible somebody who needs a part-time injury filler would make the move just to get them to October, or to a division win instead of a wild card birth. Their appeal goes way, way down if they can't be on your playoff roster, but there's plenty to play for still in September for teams and you have to add 2 guys who won't be on your playoff roster anyways, so it's possible somebody would still claim them. Just a much smaller chance.

There is a possibility of a team that is well out of contention but has a depleted relief corps picks up the relievers to just try to get through the season.  Would be sucky for the players but this is one possibility I do see happening.  

[chpettit19]

57 minutes ago, Cris E said:

More details on the plumbing of this from Fangraphs:

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/qa-what-the-heck-did-the-angels-and-some-other-teams-just-do/

 

Plus in the comments someone pointed out that teams have 48 hours to claim, which is why it’s done now in time for playoff eligibility on Sept 1.

Very interesting. There goes our "catch and release" theory. I wonder what the timeline is for being able to release them again is? You're surely not forced to keep them for the entire season so I wonder when you're allowed to release them. Thanks for this resource!

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

Does anyone think a memo from MLB has gone out to teams regarding this situation, stating if you are not playing for the playoffs please do not make claims on these players.  If you are planning to pick a player up to later drop them,  do not put in a waiver claim.  I think this has prompted a large issue.   The biggest being the fairness,  you could have one team at the bottom, including the Twins who really don't have a legitimate shot at being a contender to significantly moving the needle,  without giving up any draft or player capital.  That is just nuts.  

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, LonelyseatinMOA said:

Why do people want Giolito so bad? 

he's been doo doo recently 

Only if your only evaluation is his six games with the Angels. That would have next to no influence on my decision.

[nicksaviking]

Thinking about this situation more, this should open the door to massive collusion, which in this case would benefit the Twins. Surely the Twins biggest fear in putting a claim on a bunch of these guys would be that they'd actually GET a bunch of these guys, which would not only be bad from a salary point of view, but for the roster construction as well.

However, the Twins have a vested interest in both improving the team, and not letting the AL teams above them improve. But so do the Reds and Marlins. The Twins should 100% be coordinating with one or both of those clubs to see which ones they plan or want to bid on. While those clubs are battling each other, they also should want the Twins to score any or all of the other players if only to keep them away from the NL teams ahead of them. Then the Twins and Reds/Marlins would only have to worry about bids on a couple players each instead of gambling on getting all or none.

This is crooked as hell, and the Twins should totally be taking advantage of it before they fix it next year.

[Cris E]

 

31 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Does anyone think a memo from MLB has gone out to teams regarding this situation, stating if you are not playing for the playoffs please do not make claims on these players.  If you are planning to pick a player up to later drop them,  do not put in a waiver claim.  I think this has prompted a large issue.   The biggest being the fairness,  you could have one team at the bottom, including the Twins who really don't have a legitimate shot at being a contender to significantly moving the needle,  without giving up any draft or player capital.  That is just nuts.  

The Twins do very much have a chance to do things: they have good starting pitching, enough decent hitters that a post-season  hot streak is quite conceivable, and three or four good relievers.  What they need is one more arm and and some luck in October, and there are a couple candidates in this group that could fill that bullpen role down the stretch.

[Guest]

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[SwainZag]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Does anyone think a memo from MLB has gone out to teams regarding this situation, stating if you are not playing for the playoffs please do not make claims on these players.  If you are planning to pick a player up to later drop them,  do not put in a waiver claim.  I think this has prompted a large issue.   The biggest being the fairness,  you could have one team at the bottom, including the Twins who really don't have a legitimate shot at being a contender to significantly moving the needle,  without giving up any draft or player capital.  That is just nuts.  

I very much highly doubt it.  Unless a team picks up a player, they get playing time struggle and get re-released or waived.  Picking up a player only to waive him days later is going to be frowned upon and look bad.

Outside of the relievers, who could certainly help a pen, who is moving the needle?  And significantly at that?

Giolito?  In 6 starts for the Angels, he has an ERA of 6.89, a FIP of 6.82, and has given up 10 HR in 32 innings.

Renfroe?  He's hitting .217/.315/.362 with an OPS of .677 in 159 PA since the break.  

Grichuck?  Since going the Angels he has hit .165/.212/.351 with an OPS of .561 in 104 PA

Bader is a .239/.,275/.365 with an OPS of .640.  He could add some value on defense.

 

A lot of posts insinuate that the Angels are waiving big stars that are going to be very valuable, when every guy has struggled.....and pretty mightily.  I think there is some depth to be added and I fully see why a team like the Angels would do it.  I also see zero reason for the league to get involved.

[SwainZag]

I also think the MLB is responsible for this issue by severely cutting back on September callups.  

For teams our of contention, September was a time to call up your AAA guys and give them a shot at playing time.  With limiting the callups to 28, you have to be picky. 

[cmoss84]

You haven't heard? Oakland is signing all of them...

[bighat]

Playoffs? 

[Azviking101]

8 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

This is the first year that we have seen this. It's a new loop hole.

They will have to address this in the off-season and come up with a new waiver policy. 

In the meantime... 26/28 and 40 man roster considerations might slow the Marlins and Reds from grabbing everyone. 

Manfred and co are supposed to be the smartest people in the room and should have factored something like this happening 

 

[Riverbrian]

6 minutes ago, Azviking101 said:

Manfred and co are supposed to be the smartest people in the room and should have factored something like this happening 

 

It's an agreement/negotiation between the players union and major league baseball.

Manfred wasn't the only smart person in that room.   

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, SwainZag said:

I also think the MLB is responsible for this issue by severely cutting back on September callups.  

For teams our of contention, September was a time to call up your AAA guys and give them a shot at playing time.  With limiting the callups to 28, you have to be picky. 

I don't think that rule changes what the Angels are doing. They're trying to get under the tax threshold. This is just straight up financially motivated. They'd have done this even if they could call up all 40 guys.

This kind of thing is a bit of an unintended consequence of that rule change, though. But I'm happier with a handful of waiver guys hitting the market on Aug 31 than the team I'm directly battling with playing a AAA team at the end of September while I have to play a real MLB team. The Angels are an outlier, I think. Bader, Carrasco, Cisnero being waived is probably closer to what we'll see moving forward. Even rebuilding teams aren't going to shed a bunch of controllable assets at the end of August. And they likely traded all their free agents to be in July.

[SwainZag]

22 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't think that rule changes what the Angels are doing. They're trying to get under the tax threshold. This is just straight up financially motivated. They'd have done this even if they could call up all 40 guys.

This kind of thing is a bit of an unintended consequence of that rule change, though. But I'm happier with a handful of waiver guys hitting the market on Aug 31 than the team I'm directly battling with playing a AAA team at the end of September while I have to play a real MLB team. The Angels are an outlier, I think. Bader, Carrasco, Cisnero being waived is probably closer to what we'll see moving forward. Even rebuilding teams aren't going to shed a bunch of controllable assets at the end of August. And they likely traded all their free agents to be in July.

Good point with tax threshold, but my point stands in other situations.

I would almost argue that teams that are playing prospects and AAA types who need to play well to get another shot give just as good of a game as one with vets who are mailing it in at the end of the season.  I have zero stats or numbers to back this up though.

No player that was waived was a controllable asset though, so that doesn't really change anything, unless I missed one somewhere.

[LA Vikes Fan]

6 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

I'm guessing they won't have interest in Lopez, historically, he's got terrible control and the Twins pen is built on control pitchers these days. They should have interest in Moore though.

With them willing to option Ober, they should have some interest in Giolito. I mean Giolito vs Kuechel? That shouldn't be a tough decision.

As for the outfielders, I'd guess their interest would go Grichuk, Renfroe, Bader. I mean, why would this team want Bader anyway, he's just as bad at hitting as Luplow and doesn't do anything Michael Taylor doesn't. I have no interest in Renfroe either. His .623 post season OPS and 34% post season strikeout percentage are awful. Grichuk doesn't do anything for me either, but he's the best of the three options by quite a bit since his bat is comparable to Renfroe and his defense is comparable to Bader. The highest ceiling option is still Austin Martin, which is where they should have turned weeks ago.

But three claims seems like a lot, I don't know if the Twins would be willing to risk taking on all of the salaries. So my guess is they put claims in on Moore and Grichuk and if they happen to get the greenlight to go wild, Giolito as a third.

Agree except on Grichuk. He has hit .165/.212/.351 since leaving Colorado and coming to the Angels. He had a .703 OPS for Toronto in 2021, followed by .754 and .821 in Colorado, followed by .563 since he left Denver. Sounds like a guy who is on the way down being propped up by the Rockies ballpark. No need for him. I'd rather have Martin. 

Grab Moore if you can, though. He's good. Lopez, maybe.