Why on Earth Won't the Twins Move Edouard Julien to First Base?

[Daniel Blegen]

Polanco is gone after this season, 2024 contract vests w/550 PAs, he has 189. Julien is one of several ready for majors who play infield, Lewis, Lee, Miranda, Martin. All cheaper and with minor league options unlike Polanco or Gordon who is also gone. Kiriloff has been their 1B of the future for 3 years, Julien doesn't profile. Trades for pitching from strength possible in winter.

[JD-TWINS]

9 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Kirilloff looks good at 1B. Lewis looks good at 3B. Polo does not look good at 3B. Gallo went 4 for 4 last night with 2 homers. Where did that come from? Where will Lee play next year?  

Lee at 3B IF they can get Lewis to settle into CF. Julien at 2B. Lee at 2B IF Lewis remains at 3B…..Lee may not be up until June?

I think they have to save the $ on Polanco and set him free. Too banged up & out too often. Julien will be under pressure to IMPROVE at 2B. The organization is working with him now & once the season ends I assume they’ll let him refresh a bit and then it will be “2B fielding camp” for about 3 months til Spring Training. Not a lot of time in Canada this winter.

[LA Vikes Fan]

8 hours ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

No to this suggestion.  I'm sorry he does not have a good place defensively, but 1B should not be it as I agree with Chief that it takes a good glove over there which Julian has yet to demonstrate that he has.

Have him work hard in the off season on fielding at 2B and decide if it is improved enough to not pick up Polo's option.  Players in the past (and present like Jeffers) have shown that they can improve defensively with hard work.  Trade either Julian or Polo based on that off season assessment.

This is the key. Work Julien hard on D in the offseason at 2b in the hope he can play there 65% of the time. Work Polanco at 1B so he's the answer when Kirilloff is hurt or sits. Polo becomes a super utility playing 2 days at 2B, a day or two at 3B, a day or 2 at 1B,  2 days at DH, and he's great injury insurance in the IF. 10m is a lot for that guy but the IF next year will have 3 pre-arbitration starters in Kirilloff, Lewis, and Julien so you can afford a higher priced bench guy.  

[LA Vikes Fan]

6 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Brooks Lee is in AAA getting ready for 2024. It's plenty challenging for him as a hitter.

Brooks Lee looks like a great prospect but I got $20 he opens 2024 in AAA. He isn't tearing up AAA yet, after taking 3 months to get to tearing up AA. He needs more time; he's not a short term starter for next year.  He's not an impediment for next year's Opening Day IF. 

Two hot takes-

1) Let's make Polanco a part time 1B when Lewis comes back. He can actually play infield, is a veteran who can separate defensive issues from his at bats, has pretty good hands (his arm is the issue), and needs to play. Good experience for his super utility role next year. He's the better choice. 

2) Why do people want to trade Julien? The guy can hit. He's struggling in the field in his first year in the bigs. He can learn to be a decent infielder or maybe even a decent LF. Two good examples - Corey Koskie and Justin Morneau. Both were poor fielders when they came up who could hit, Both became good infielders with a lot of work. Maybe it's Canadian thing.  Give Julien the same chance. Way to early to give up on the guy or pigeon hole into a DH spot. 

 

[JD-TWINS]

8 hours ago, DJL44 said:

It takes less skill than playing 2B. It's hope that they can salvage some defensive value from Julien by playing him at the easiest infield position. If he can't play 1B then he's a 24 year old platoon DH who doesn't hit lefties. That's hard to carry with just 13 roster spots for position players.

Julien is also having a pretty bad August so far (507 OPS). I might consider sending him back to AAA when Lewis returns.

Castro or Julien down at some point. Sure seems probable/possible.

They have 16 active guys now for 15 spots in September & then 14 spots in October (w/12 pitchers)……only 13 spots this month.

Luplow - Taylor - Castro - Gallo - Buxton - Polanco - Julien are the guys that need to be sorted out.

……………..

Lewis - CC - Julien/Polanco - Kirilloff - Farmer - Solano - Vazquez - Jeffers - Wallner - Kepler - Taylor - Buxton - Castro are my assumption for the October, 14 guys.

……………….

Luplow - Gallo watch & maybe used for 2nd series?

[old nurse]

7 hours ago, DJL44 said:

I want the Twins to trade him for pitching like the Rays did when they dumped Delmon Young on the Twins.

What Tampa Bay did with Deleon Young should be prosecuted. Not just because the got Garza and Bartlett. They turned Garza into Archer and useful players. They turned Archer into Meadows, Glasgow and Baez. They turned Meadows into Isaac Parades. 4 winning trades from Delmon Young. 

[DJL44]

4 hours ago, AceWrigley said:

Have Julien practice juggling, its great for improving rhythm, coordination, first touch, body control and even brain development.

[AceWrigley]

8 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

and chicks dig it.

[The Mad King]

Sound logic. And he stays healthy...

[Linus]

Julien has had promising stretches but it’s still pretty early. I think most people on these boards are overrating him as he really is a dh. I doubt he ever hits well enough to be a primary dedicated dh. Same problem with Miranda. If you can’t field you have to be an elite hitter and both are not likely to be  elite. 

[Riverbrian]

12 hours ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

Polo becomes a super utility playing 2 days at 2B, a day or two at 3B, a day or 2 at 1B,  2 days at DH, and he's great injury insurance in the IF. 10m is a lot for that guy but the IF next year will have 3 pre-arbitration starters in Kirilloff, Lewis, and Julien so you can afford a higher priced bench guy.  

I have no problem with your Polonco usage suggestion.

It adds up to somewhere between 6 to 8 days at 4 different positions so the time frame you are suggesting is obviously very important. If you are using a typical week time frame... he would not be a high priced bench guy... 6 to 8 days is either a full time job or a Beatles song. Therefore... if he's playing full time at multiple positions... wouldn't that make him more valuable than the guy who plays full time at one position. 

Personally... I stopped using the word bench many years ago. Willi Castro is currently 5th in AB's with the Twins... So is he a bench guy? 

Once you remove the word bench from your baseball language, having Julien, Kirilloff, Polanco and Lewis on the same team is no longer a problem. 

[Karbo]

21 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

If Kepler is back - Wallner is back - where does Kirilloff play with Polanco at 1B?

May be Lee at 2B & Julien as DH as well in ‘24.

Personally, I don’t see us picking up Polanco’s option unless we are trading him or Julien. Jorge is banged up too much to have in plans forward…….already have Buxton to deal with on the fragility side. Can’t trade Julien - right?

I think the practical “long play” is to see if Julien can play LF…….ultimately, moving Wallner to RF in ‘25.

AK would move to left and Wallner could DH or play right if Kepler is gone, though I don't think he will be. To me the key is Buxton going back to CF.

[wabene]

16 hours ago, AceWrigley said:

Have Julien practice juggling, its great for improving rhythm, coordination, first touch, body control and even brain development.

I think he already did that at mime summer camp up in Quebec

[wabene]

19 hours ago, DJL44 said:

He's unplayable at 2B for a whole season. If that's his best position, then he doesn't have one. LF would be a better choice simply because they get fewer chances to screw up than 2B. They made the 2B decision before the rules changes about infield shifting. Now 2B range matters again and Julien doesn't have enough range.

Not sure range is his problem, it's what he does when he gets there. 

[Trov]

For all we know they have behind the scenes and he was been terrible?  People underestimate how valuable a good first baseman can be, and how a bad one can cost a ton of runs.  I agree with the idea, but it is possible they have given him reps there in practice and he has been terrible.  I think in the off-season they need to make him learn the position more, because we have too many good hitting and much better defending infielders ready to push him. 

[Major League Ready]

5 hours ago, Trov said:

For all we know they have behind the scenes and he was been terrible?  People underestimate how valuable a good first baseman can be, and how a bad one can cost a ton of runs.  I agree with the idea, but it is possible they have given him reps there in practice and he has been terrible.  I think in the off-season they need to make him learn the position more, because we have too many good hitting and much better defending infielders ready to push him. 

He played 180 Innings at 1B in the minors so it's a safe bet they also worked him out at 1B on numerous occasions.   Anyone who has seen him play anywhere knows he has stone hands and bad footwork.  Yet, somehow people who have not seen him play 1B are astonished the Twins are not playing him there.  He is bad at 2B and we have several 2B options and we need 1B depth.  It's pretty obvious the organization has tested this option and concluded it will not work, at least not in season.  Maybe they have him take throws and work on his footwork at 1B over the winter.  

[yeahyabetcha]

For the remainder of this year, I would prefer to see Julien only at 2b or Dh.   A position change in 2024 might make sense, but there are several factors to consider first.

[Riverbrian]

28 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

You are correct in that all these guys have some skills that are workable on a PT basis.  You can include Gordon, Castro, Solano and Farmer in this same category.  That said, there are not enough roster spots to support a bunch of PT players.  The Twins need more complete players (e.g., Lewis, Lee, Kirilloff, and Correa, etc.) that are not liabilities on offense or defense so they do not have to eat up two roster spots for each of these positions.  Having a few super utility guys works but you cannot have too many.

Super Utility is a guy who plays every day at multiple positions. 

Utility is a guy who plays occasionally at multiple positions.  

The limitation of 9 starting spots and 13 players will limit how many super utility guys that you have because you won't need that many.  

In the example that started this discussion string. Polanco would be a super utility guy because he would play nearly every day at multiple positions. That would not be a bench guy. 

Personally, I don't care much for buckets or labels because those buckets and labels don't last long over the course of a season.

Willi Castro made this roster as a utility player out of spring training with limited expectation for playing time. As the season has gone along with injuries and what not... Castro is 5th in AB's. There have been stretches of time where Castro has been Super Utility because of necessity. 

Necessity is the mother of invention.  
 

[LA Vikes Fan]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I have no problem with your Polonco usage suggestion.

It adds up to somewhere between 6 to 8 days at 4 different positions so the time frame you are suggesting is obviously very important. If you are using a typical week time frame... he would not be a high priced bench guy... 6 to 8 days is either a full time job or a Beatles song. Therefore... if he's playing full time at multiple positions... wouldn't that make him more valuable than the guy who plays full time at one position. 

Personally... I stopped using the word bench many years ago. Willi Castro is currently 5th in AB's with the Twins... So is he a bench guy? 

Once you remove the word bench from your baseball language, having Julien, Kirilloff, Polanco and Lewis on the same team is no longer a problem. 

Very well put. I think we tend to obsess on the one day lineup thinking there are starters who play "every day" and then there are bench players. I think there are more like 5-6 guys for the infield, 4-5 outfielders, and two catchers who play in various combinations in modern baseball. With that construct, an infield group of Lewis, Correa, Polanco, Julien, Solano, and Farmer works very well. Add in Kirilloff and lose one of the "part timers" in Solano or Farmer and you really have a very good infield group. Maybe you trade Farmer in the off season to a team that needs a SS and Solano stays until Lee is ready to join that group.  The OF group is Buxton, Taylor, Kepler, Wallner, and Castro, with Larnach, Luplow, or any other youngish guy in AAA taking the place of Castro if they deserve it. Works for me and I think it's a contending group. 

I say improve flexibility this year and next by playing Polanco at 1B now.  Also opens up the possibility of a Polanco, Julien, Correa, Lewis playoff infield with Solano and Gallo in the pinch hitter/DH role and Farmer as the late inning defensive replacement.  

[DJL44]

22 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't know if he can read a fly ball. If he can't and he's turning flyouts into doubles I'm not sure LF is the better choice. 

Second basemen also field fly balls.

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Second basemen also field fly balls.

And LFers also field grounders. But those certainly aren't the skills you're looking to develop at those positions. If a 2B is fielding a fly ball there's a very good chance that at least 1 of 5 other players on the field (P, 1B, SS, CF, RF) can also get to that ball. And the balls in the air a 2B is fielding are very different than what a LF is fielding. I have no idea what you're trying to suggest here.

[Riverbrian]

11 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

Very well put. I think we tend to obsess on the one day lineup thinking there are starters who play "every day" and then there are bench players. I think there are more like 5-6 guys for the infield, 4-5 outfielders, and two catchers who play in various combinations in modern baseball. With that construct, an infield group of Lewis, Correa, Polanco, Julien, Solano, and Farmer works very well. Add in Kirilloff and lose one of the "part timers" in Solano or Farmer and you really have a very good infield group. Maybe you trade Farmer in the off season to a team that needs a SS and Solano stays until Lee is ready to join that group.  The OF group is Buxton, Taylor, Kepler, Wallner, and Castro, with Larnach, Luplow, or any other youngish guy in AAA taking the place of Castro if they deserve it. Works for me and I think it's a contending group. 

I say improve flexibility this year and next by playing Polanco at 1B now.  Also opens up the possibility of a Polanco, Julien, Correa, Lewis playoff infield with Solano and Gallo in the pinch hitter/DH role and Farmer as the late inning defensive replacement.  

Teams move players around all the time due to ever changing team needs. It shouldn't scare anyone but the thought of it seems to frighten some folks as these discussions happen all the time. 

Having Lewis, Julien and Polanco on the same roster is not a problem unless you make it a problem by being inflexible. 

Flexibility is a natural by-product of having actual depth on your roster and every team should want depth on their roster. 

You can't have depth without flexibility. 

When Lewis comes back... I don't care who plays 1B.

Move someone... it'll be OK. The sky will not fall because teams do it all the time out of necessity. Necessity is indeed the mother of invention.   

If Polanco is rostered next year as a 3B, 2B and 1B.

That's Great!!! Polanco instantly becomes more valuable and easier to put into the lineup card while making room for others. 

 

 

[DJL44]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

And LFers also field grounders. But those certainly aren't the skills you're looking to develop at those positions. If a 2B is fielding a fly ball there's a very good chance that at least 1 of 5 other players on the field (P, 1B, SS, CF, RF) can also get to that ball. And the balls in the air a 2B is fielding are very different than what a LF is fielding. I have no idea what you're trying to suggest here.

It's just frustration that people think Julien can't catch a ball or judge a pop fly, so let's put him at an up-the-middle defensive position where it really hurts the team defensively instead of hiding him at one of the easiest positions.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

It's just frustration that people think Julien can't catch a ball or judge a pop fly, so let's put him at an up-the-middle defensive position where it really hurts the team defensively instead of hiding him at one of the easiest positions.

Why do you think he can judge a pop fly? Not everybody can.

The Twins have tried him at other spots. I know it's popular to just assume they're completely incompetent so they're making a clearly wrong decision, but multiple coaches have seen him play these other spots. I don't like him at 2B either, but he's the 1 guy they aren't playing all over after having tried it. Isn't it at least plausible that the reason they aren't doing with him what they did with Arraez is because they've seen him at these other spots and it's even worse than him at 2B?

[jorgenswest]

4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I have no problem with your Polonco usage suggestion.

It adds up to somewhere between 6 to 8 days at 4 different positions so the time frame you are suggesting is obviously very important. If you are using a typical week time frame... he would not be a high priced bench guy... 6 to 8 days is either a full time job or a Beatles song. Therefore... if he's playing full time at multiple positions... wouldn't that make him more valuable than the guy who plays full time at one position. 

Personally... I stopped using the word bench many years ago. Willi Castro is currently 5th in AB's with the Twins... So is he a bench guy? 

Once you remove the word bench from your baseball language, having Julien, Kirilloff, Polanco and Lewis on the same team is no longer a problem. 

Nice perspective on bench…

I also like to think beyond the 26 man roster. They will likely have 18 position players with 100 PAs this year. They need more than 13 capable major leaguers to make it through the season and some capable major leaguers waiting for the opportunity in AAA while optioned. We may have felt like we waited too long but it is far better to be going to Julien and Wallner than Cave and Beckham.

[Riverbrian]

9 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

Nice perspective on bench…

I also like to think beyond the 26 man roster. They will likely have 18 position players with 100 PAs this year. They need more than 13 capable major leaguers to make it through the season and some capable major leaguers waiting for the opportunity in AAA while optioned. We may have felt like we waited too long but it is far better to be going to Julien and Wallner than Cave and Beckham.

Absolutely... I agree with you 1,000 Percent. 

In the end... my judgement on this front office will be almost solely based upon their ability to develop capable young talent at league minimum with years of control. The fruit is starting to ripen. 

Fresh fruit fills those gaps nicely.  

[Mike Sixel]

Some truly mind boggling posts in this thread.....trade Julien? Wow. Hiding Kiriloff at 1B? Wow. Just trade Buxton? Wut?

On topic.....Julien can't play first right now, and it looks like he's unlikely to ever be good at it. I'd think he does less damage at 2B than at first, way less chances. I'm guessing they really didn't like what they saw in the minors of him in LF, because that's the obvious spot for him on this current roster......

Long term? DH or 2B, I'd guess, though Buxton makes that difficult.....

[wornsmooth]

On 8/13/2023 at 10:35 AM, jorgenswest said:

Is there an assumption that it takes no skill to play the first base?

A first baseman doesn’t need range or a good arm. They do need a good glove and hands. That soft glove is not in the skill set of every player and you don’t need to throw them out there at 1B to see it.

Yesterday Gallo caught a laser rocket line drive for a game ending double play. While it wasn't a superman play. It required good defense that a below average defender would not make.

For Julien to improve at second base, he needs to play at second base. He will improve.

Tony Oliva was a marginal right fielder. Except for his accurate cannon arm. They left him in right. Didn't mess with his hitting by experimenting with him elsewher. And he eventually became a gold glover with his hard work.

I am convinced some of the Twins hitting problems are related to moving players around defensively like they are checker peices.

[wabene]

7 minutes ago, wornsmooth said:

Yesterday Gallo caught a laser rocket line drive for a game ending double play. While it wasn't a superman play. It required good defense that a below average defender would not make.

For Julien to improve at second base, he needs to play at second base. He will improve.

Tony Oliva was a marginal right fielder. Except for his accurate cannon arm. They left him in right. Didn't mess with his hitting by experimenting with him elsewher. And he eventually became a gold glover with his hard work.

I am convinced some of the Twins hitting problems are related to moving players around defensively like they are CHESS peices.

FTFY

Fringe Ivy Leaguers don't play checkers. 

[Mike Sixel]

I really also wonder at some of the thoughts here....do we really think the Twins haven't watched him play in the minors and majors? 

They've placed Severino at first in AAA for a game or two, I think that tells us something about Julien at first, and Severino anywhere (I am a believer in his bat, no idea on his glove, other than it isn't great).