Escobar re-signs with Arizona

[nicksaviking]

So is the contention that if the Twins had kept him he would have eventually just signed a contract? He played for both AZ and the Twins last year and immediately re-signed with AZ. This theory seems to boil down to the Twins should have Flowers in the Attic-ed Escobar so that he'd never find out that the grass is greener elsewhere.

 

My suspicions would be that he already knew.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Let's also not forget when comparing the Twins to Diamondbacks, the Arizona state income tax is about 5% less than Minnesota.  So $21 million from them nets about a million more in his pocket than if signing the same deal with the Twins.  And he ain't getting a FED deduction for it like they used to.  

It doesn't really work that way with players. Escobar will keep a bit more money in Arizona but only for the 81 games he plays there. For the other 81 games, he'll pay taxes in line with whatever the rate is of the state in which he's playing (play in Dodger Stadium, pay CA taxes).

 

All in all, he probably gains a little money but playing so many games in CA has to chisel into that overall amount quite a bit (~57 games against the Dodgers, Padres, Giants, half of them in CA).

[JD Green]

 

Damn he was fun to watch. That is a deal. Thank the LordBeJeebus we still have Astudillo!

Austudillo showed he deserves a shot at becoming our next utility player. Cant expect him to keep his September pace, but if he was to maintain .275 to .300 BA, he might have found a home. Fun player to watch. Kind of looks like a little Kirby! Gotta have some kind of hope.

[Mike Sixel]

It's amazing to me how much people know what the Twins offered, and what Escobar is thinking! 

 

We literally have no idea why it came down this way. But it seems that other teams that have sold at the deadline have signed FAs the next year, and the year after.....so I really doubt that's an issue that would keep someone from coming to MN.

[TheLeviathan]

Escobar is going to be stuck on a bad baseball team the next three years in all likelihood.  I wouldn't be shocked at all to see him moved again in the not too distant future.

[Nine of twelve]

 

It doesn't really work that way with players. Escobar will keep a bit more money in Arizona but only for the 81 games he plays there. For the other 81 games, he'll pay taxes in line with whatever the rate is of the state in which he's playing (play in Dodger Stadium, pay CA taxes).

 

All in all, he probably gains a little money but playing so many games in CA has to chisel into that overall amount quite a bit (~57 games against the Dodgers, Padres, Giants, half of them in CA).

I don't remember how long ago it was that states recognized that visiting players, managers, coaches, etc. were earning money while working in their states and are therefore properly required to pay state income tax on their earnings for that work. It's a way that states with small-payroll teams that host large-payroll teams can increase their revenue relative to what it would be charging income tax only on home team players. And it's a boon for high-salaried players who visit Florida regularly because there's no income tax there. It would also be a boon for high-salaried players who play their home games in Florida if there were any such players.

[Nine of twelve]

Hey moderators, shouldn't this thread properly be in the MLB forum?

[ashbury]

Hey moderators, shouldn't this thread properly be in the MLB forum?

Yeah probably. At this point I don't know if there is a lot of incentive to make the move.

 

It being Halloween season, I'll mention the words "consistency" and "hobgoblin".

[Rosterman]

 

I Think the Twins Front Office better get ready for tough free agent market this coming winter and I am speculating here but I think the word is out that Twins are not preferred club but one that you sign to if no one else is offering anything close in money. I think this past year was sign of this with Lynn and Morrisson when they signed and we heard they were not good club house additions. Second this front office has been here two years and they have not signed one in house player to new contract. It was reported they tried signing Escobar just before they traded him basically take or leave it deal. If that was true the money was either not good enough or playing for the club was not to his likening otherwise he would have signed. If I would been in similar situation I think I would have been very peeved with the whole way it was handled. I think we have seen glimpses what players think of this front office first Dozier reaction when they had he wasn't happy about being sellers, Santana interview where he was quoted saying they keep taking pieces away making it harder to win, and now Escobar signing with his new club even before checking out free agency. I also wonder if last springs arbitration with Gibson also had effect on what the players thought of this Front Office and the handling of Buxton this fall couldn't have set well with players. All these things start adding up to where players look to other clubs before they will now with the Twins.  

Well, it is not like other teams were knocking down the door to sign any of the players the Twins did sign, otherwise they would've signed for money and years elsewhere. So there are always free agents looking for a contract. Teams only have so much money to spend. The difficult part if how much do you overpay to woo someone to come and join your team, compared to what others might offer that are more competitive. 

[Puckett34]

 

With all the time available to discuss an extension AFTER the conclusion of the 2017 season and the fact that it took the Twins until the 11th hour of the trade deadline to float an extension offer - (NOTE this was not a negotiation process.), the Twins pissed him off. This was a - "before we trade you would you care to resign for $X?" So now in APRIL he can play is 83 degree temperature rather than in 33 degree temperature. Thank you legislature and Pohlad family for a non domed stadium. Where do you spend: April, May, September and October? And IF we were to ever get to the World Series again, We would be playing Minnesota outdoor baseball in November

Outdoor baseball in October/November seems to work out ok for the Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs.

[markos]

 

It's amazing to me how much people know what the Twins offered, and what Escobar is thinking! 

 

We literally have no idea why it came down this way. But it seems that other teams that have sold at the deadline have signed FAs the next year, and the year after.....so I really doubt that's an issue that would keep someone from coming to MN.

Sure, we don't know exactly. But I think we can acknowledge that uncertainty and still agree that given the facts that we do know (that it was reported that the Twins and Escobar had some extension discussions, that Escobar signed a deal without actually reaching free agency, etc), the most likely scenario is that the Twins offered less than what the Diamondbacks offered and Escobar ultimately accepted.

 

And speaking for myself, I think it is fair to question the decision making process for the Twins. From all outward appearances, the Twins had a solid, high-floor, extremely well-liked player who was willing to sign an extension at (in my opinion) extremely team-friendly terms, and they decided to trade that player away at the deadline instead.

[Major League Ready]

 

Good thing we've had management with the long term thinking to get us 6 postseason games won since 1991.

 

You lost me. You will have to explain the relevance of what happened long before the new FO took over. You see, I was hoping the would not follow the same pedestrian thinking and mediocre management practices that resulted in the ineptitude you describe. 

[Major League Ready]

 

You didn't have to hope he resigned, they could have actually offered him a contract that he would have signed.  If they didn't offer at least 3 years $21 million before they traded him they are idiots.  And if they did and he just didn't want to be in the organization anymore, that even a worst sign.

 

1) What does this have to do with how far off people were who insisted we should utilize a QO?

 

2) We have no idea what went on so to form any opinion is by definition a word I probably should not use here. 

 

3) I absolutely loved having Escobar on this team. He had a big year but was under 2 WAR the previous 3 seasons. They will need to do something bigger if we are to become a contender. Polanco needs to be moved to 2B and moving Sano to accommodate Escobar makes no sense. Do something like taking a shot with Donaldson. That might be worth moving Sano to 1B.

 

I am not sure how it makes sense to be critical when you don't have any idea what they have planned.

[laloesch]

 

Yup. And some employees put value on how an organization treats it’s people. Players are humans too - not merely a commodity.

 

You are implying that the Twins mistreated him?

[KGB]

 

 

 

1) What does this have to do with how far off people were who insisted we should utilize a QO?

 

2) We have no idea what went on so to form any opinion is by definition a word I probably should not use here. 

 

3) I absolutely loved having Escobar on this team. He had a big year but was under 2 WAR the previous 3 seasons. They will need to do something bigger if we are to become a contender. Polanco needs to be moved to 2B and moving Sano to accommodate Escobar makes no sense. Do something like taking a shot with Donaldson. That might be worth moving Sano to 1B.

 

I am not sure how it makes sense to be critical when you don't have any idea what they have planned.

1) What does this have to do with how far off people were who insisted we should utilize a QO?

 

Sorry, I was not trying to address all your concerns.

 

2) We have no idea what went on so to form any opinion is by definition a word I probably should not use here

 

Since nobody on this site works for the front office, all the posts are here are opinions.  If you are waiting for only discussions based on facts nobody has access too, we might as well never post on this site.

 

3) I absolutely loved having Escobar on this team. He had a big year but was under 2 WAR the previous 3 seasons. They will need to do something bigger if we are to become a contender. Polanco needs to be moved to 2B and moving Sano to accommodate Escobar makes no sense. Do something like taking a shot with Donaldson. That might be worth moving Sano to 1B.

 

If you had an opportunity to lock one of your own player, who has shown to be a good teammate and a consistent 1.5-2 WAR player for 3 years for about the same  money than you paid Lynn and Morrison this year, it's my opinion that would have been a smart move.  Even if you think they should sign Donaldson, with his injury history (and Sano's injury history), a player who can play all 3 infield position is still probably going to get into 130 games.  Again, my opinion, but I think that would have been a smart move.

 

I am not sure how it makes sense to be critical when you don't have any idea what they have planned.

 

I agree I don't have any idea what the plan is, but I really wish they would start giving me a clue.  Because right now, I feel like they don't plan on playing meaningful baseball next year. But it's just my opinion and I would love it if they proved me wrong.

[Ben Noble]

 

By the way..... without looking it up..... anyone...... exactly who did the Twins get for Escobar? No looking it up!

 

Exactly.

 

They got Jhoan Duran, a total stud pitcher in my opinion. He made some significant adjustments early in the season and really took off, but hasn't climbed up prospect rankings yet. In fact, you could make a strong argument for ranking him ahead of every pitcher the Twins have in the minors not named Brusdar. I think he's undervalued and the Twins nabbed a potential ace in exchange for a couple months of Escobar, and that's an outstanding trade in my book.

 

Got a couple of outfielders, too, that I would have to look up, but Duran is clearly the prize here.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I agree I don't have any idea what the plan is, but I really wish they would start giving me a clue.  Because right now, I feel like they don't plan on playing meaningful baseball next year.

The World Series starts tonight. I'm not sure what you expected them to do between August and November to convince you of anything, good or bad.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong when it all shakes out, only that you're showing a level of impatience during a period of the season when the team literally isn't allowed to do anything (excepting talking to their own players, but that's almost a non-issue for the Twins, as the Twins have no pending free agents that are "must keeps" and are therefore free to lock up their existing players at their leisure).

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

We should look back on all the posts insisting a QO was a good idea because he was going to get close to $50M. He was a free agent and we got 3 prospects that are in our top 25. Should we have just held on to him and hoped he resigned?

Re-signed.

[rdehring]

 

It doesn't really work that way with players. Escobar will keep a bit more money in Arizona but only for the 81 games he plays there. For the other 81 games, he'll pay taxes in line with whatever the rate is of the state in which he's playing (play in Dodger Stadium, pay CA taxes).

 

All in all, he probably gains a little money but playing so many games in CA has to chisel into that overall amount quite a bit (~57 games against the Dodgers, Padres, Giants, half of them in CA).

Yup, wasn't thinking about that and certainly know it to be true.  Still a noticeable savings for the half that is in AZ versus MN.  Haven't looked at how MO, ILL, MI, OHIO and TEX compare with the CA teams.  I know TEX didn't have a state income tax back when. 

[Jacksson]

People are so soft these days. Whining about being outside in September? Then move to Boca Raton with all of the other 87 year olds.

 

Pneumonia can be really tough on the fragile.

After a 16 inch snowstorm in mid April 1999, I bailed out on MN after enduring the weather for 45 years of being a prisoner of my house either because it was too cold and snowy or too hot and humid. Looks like EE did the same.

[Jacksson]

Looking at the deal from the Arizona side- Who do you think they are not keeping? Some rumors are out there that Arizona is looking to move Goldschmidt. If they get what they are looking for they can move Lamb to 1B. This move makes it possible to move guys around if trade scenarios develop.

So the Twins can now go after Goldschmidt to fill their void at First.

[KGB]

 

The World Series starts tonight. I'm not sure what you expected them to do between August and November to convince you of anything, good or bad.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong when it all shakes out, only that you're showing a level of impatience during a period of the season when the team literally isn't allowed to do anything (excepting talking to their own players, but that's almost a non-issue for the Twins, as the Twins have no pending free agents that are "must keeps" and are therefore free to lock up their existing players at their leisure).

 

I had no expectation for them to do anything from August to November (except I don’t think the Buxton situation was handled great).  The issue is only what I’m finding out now on how they handled thing before August.

 

Prior to yesterday, I had no information on what Escobar wanted in a contract or if he was just was determined to test the market.  Now, it sure looks like Escobar was not making an unreasonable contract request and I think it was a mistake not to keep him.  You take that information along with last year’s inability to extend any of the players.  Even if you think now that would have been a mistake, there was plenty of steam on this site about what if would take to get extension done.  Was there inability due to low-balling them?  The Escobar information would support that assumption.  Also, if you are hopeful for this year’s free agency, you have to wonder if they are going to change their approach from last year.  I believe they would not give an escape clause to Darvish.  Do you think any major free agent is going to sign here with a clearly rebuilding club and not demand an escape clause?

 

I know they can’t do anything today, but based on what we are learning, I’m losing confidence in what they might do later.

[S.]

 

Outdoor baseball in October/November seems to work out ok for the Yankees, Red Sox and Cubs.

I gotta say, the players being a little bit chilly would be pretty low on my list of concerns if we made the world series. And I'm pretty sure any fans going to the game own a jacket

[Dman]

I did not see this coming. I really thought Eduardo would make it to free agency.  If he had become a FA I wasn't sure the Twins would be able to sign him but at least then we had the guys we traded for.  His signing with AZ does make me wonder about what was he was offered by the Twins.

 

Even with him gone I still like the trade but I have to say my opinion back when the trade happened was wrong as I thought for sure we would get a crack at him in free agency.  I really thought this was a have your cake and eat it too scenario.  I guess it is crow for dinner tonight for me.

 

He will be missed in Minnesota but he is not irreplaceable.  Here's hoping the FO gets someone who will contribute as much as Esco.

[nicksaviking]

 

I had no expectation for them to do anything from August to November (except I don’t think the Buxton situation was handled great).  The issue is only what I’m finding out now on how they handled thing before August.

 

Prior to yesterday, I had no information on what Escobar wanted in a contract or if he was just was determined to test the market.  Now, it sure looks like Escobar was not making an unreasonable contract request and I think it was a mistake not to keep him.  You take that information along with last year’s inability to extend any of the players.  Even if you think now that would have been a mistake, there was plenty of steam on this site about what if would take to get extension done.  Was there inability due to low-balling them?  The Escobar information would support that assumption.  Also, if you are hopeful for this year’s free agency, you have to wonder if they are going to change their approach from last year.  I believe they would not give an escape clause to Darvish.  Do you think any major free agent is going to sign here with a clearly rebuilding club and not demand an escape clause?

 

I know they can’t do anything today, but based on what we are learning, I’m losing confidence in what they might do later.

 

Well we know that Escobar was willing to forgo free agency, we know that the Twins did offer him a contract and we also know that the consensus is that Arizona got him for a bargain price. 

 

That coupled with Arizona's long history of being more attractive to athletes (and moderators) than Minnesota, what we know is much more indicative that Escobar just didn't want to be here.

[h2oface]

 

They got Jhoan Duran, a total stud pitcher in my opinion. He made some significant adjustments early in the season and really took off, but hasn't climbed up prospect rankings yet. In fact, you could make a strong argument for ranking him ahead of every pitcher the Twins have in the minors not named Brusdar. I think he's undervalued and the Twins nabbed a potential ace in exchange for a couple months of Escobar, and that's an outstanding trade in my book.

 

Got a couple of outfielders, too, that I would have to look up, but Duran is clearly the prize here.

 

Congrats! one out of 3. Not bad.... apparently even the best.

 

Duran not even in the top 21 according to Sickels, and a C+ grade. But we all have opinions.....

 

https://www.minorleagueball.com/2018/10/23/18002156/minnesota-twins-top-20-prospects-for-2019

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I had no expectation for them to do anything from August to November (except I don’t think the Buxton situation was handled great).  The issue is only what I’m finding out now on how they handled thing before August.

 

Prior to yesterday, I had no information on what Escobar wanted in a contract or if he was just was determined to test the market.  Now, it sure looks like Escobar was not making an unreasonable contract request and I think it was a mistake not to keep him.  You take that information along with last year’s inability to extend any of the players.  Even if you think now that would have been a mistake, there was plenty of steam on this site about what if would take to get extension done.  Was there inability due to low-balling them?  The Escobar information would support that assumption.  Also, if you are hopeful for this year’s free agency, you have to wonder if they are going to change their approach from last year.  I believe they would not give an escape clause to Darvish.  Do you think any major free agent is going to sign here with a clearly rebuilding club and not demand an escape clause?

 

I know they can’t do anything today, but based on what we are learning, I’m losing confidence in what they might do later.

All very fair points about Escobar, though we certainly don't know the specifics. I doubt the Twins lowballed him in yearly value compared to Arizona (seriously, how much lower than $7m do you think they could even go) but it certainly could have been years.

 

Or maybe Escobar simply changed his mind. Hard to say without any real information on the subject but, in the end, the Twins likely lost out in this exchange.

 

As for Darvish, it's hard to look at that situation and say the Twins didn't do the right thing. So what if they didn't give him an escape clause? That's going to look even worse in a year or two if the Cubs have to pay Darvish for one entirely lost season, a good season or two, and then he escapes via a clause (though if I was a front office, I'd welcome escape clauses, as your risk is lower at the front end and higher at the back end of your average contract).

 

As for their approach to the offseason, it will almost certainly change, as Levine has said. He questioned the approach of signing so many one-year contracts in a single offseason and given the 2018 team's performance, I doubt that's the only thing the front office is reconsidering right now.

[Squirrel]

 

Re-signed.

I've edited the topic heading because, yeah ... there's a world of difference between resigned and re-signed ... and it does make it a wee bit of an iota confusing until you start reading the first post, then you understand.

[kenbuddha]

 

Congrats! one out of 3. Not bad.... apparently even the best.

 

Duran not even in the top 21 according to Sickels, and a C+ grade. But we all have opinions.....

 

https://www.minorleagueball.com/2018/10/23/18002156/minnesota-twins-top-20-prospects-for-2019

Well, if you're going to use Sickels, then prospect #19 is Gabriel Maciel. Came over in the Eduardo Escobar trade.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Well, if you're going to use Sickels, then prospect #19 is Gabriel Maciel. Came over in the Eduardo Escobar trade.

While I found the Escobar return satisfactory but not that impressive, it should also be noted that the Twins are long on depth and short on top-flight MiLB talent.

 

Being in the 20s in the Twins system is not necessarily a bad place to be. It's a system that has loads of depth where pretty talented guys can be 18th or 26th in the system (though, again, the system could use a lot more top-end talent).