Escobar re-signs with Arizona

[Mike Sixel]

 

Congrats! one out of 3. Not bad.... apparently even the best.

 

Duran not even in the top 21 according to Sickels, and a C+ grade. But we all have opinions.....

 

https://www.minorleagueball.com/2018/10/23/18002156/minnesota-twins-top-20-prospects-for-2019

 

I really don't get this......who cares if we can recall who they got in what trade? Escobar was going to be a FA. They got three players for him. I call that a win in a lost season. Serious A+ work.

[Doomtints]

Arizona really likes him and the feeling is mutual. Like others, I was initially surprised Escobar didn't test out free agency. Now that that I look at his Arizona numbers, I see this is a great deal for him.

 

He is a regression candidate (and in fact his regression is already in process, he was merely average in Arizona) but he is a versatile, if unexciting, infield defender. His offense surprised everyone this year but I don't think his offense is the main reason Arizona signed (not re-signed) him.

[TheLeviathan]

It's possible that the decision was less about money and more about playing time.  Maybe AZ promised him 2B or 3B going forward. 

 

Maybe it's just a much easier flight home to Venezuela.  

 

I'm surprised he isn't reading the tea leaves there - it's a long, rough rebuild on the horizon.

[h2oface]

 

Well, if you're going to use Sickels, then prospect #19 is Gabriel Maciel. Came over in the Eduardo Escobar trade.

 

It doesn't matter who you use, and Sickels was just the opinion de jour, with its own thread today. Pipeline is fine, too. Fangraph's.... whatever. Ben Noble's opinion is just as valid, in my opinion. Maciel was considered the prize of the trade by some. I thought "But we all have opinions....." coverered the multitude of opinions and included them.

 

I have a hard time getting excited about mid level prospects, of which, probably, most will never make it out of the minors. Lots of those is still not much, unless you just like minor leauge ball, which is a lot of fun. To each its own.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I really don't get this......who cares if we can recall who they got in what trade? Escobar was going to be a FA. They got three players for him. I call that a win in a lost season. Serious A+ work.

I care.

 

The players cared.

[Doomtints]

 

It doesn't matter who you use, and Sickels was just the opinion de jour, with its own thread today. Pipeline is fine, too. Fangraph's.... whatever. Ben Noble's opinion is just as valid, in my opinion. Maciel was considered the prize of the trade by some. I thought "But we all have opinions....." coverered the multitude of opinions and included them.

 

I have a hard time getting excited about mid level prospects, of which, probably, most will never make it out of the minors. Lots of those is still not much, unless you just like minor leauge ball. To each its own.

 

Not sure what you want us to say. Escobar is an average player and his contract was up. He would be a free agent right now and probably wouldn't come back to the Twins. As others have said, getting anything for him at all is good.

[TheLeviathan]

 

It doesn't matter who you use, and Sickels was just the opinion de jour, with its own thread today. Pipeline is fine, too. Fangraph's.... whatever. Ben Noble's opinion is just as valid, in my opinion. Maciel was considered the prize of the trade by some. I thought "But we all have opinions....." coverered the multitude of opinions and included them.

 

I have a hard time getting excited about mid level prospects, of which, probably, most will never make it out of the minors. Lots of those is still not much, unless you just like minor leauge ball, which is a lot of fun. To each its own.

 

Trades like this are how you land guys like....I don't know.....Eduardo Escobar.

 

The irony is rich.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Trades like this are how you land guys like....I don't know.....Eduardo Escobar.

 

The irony is rich.

Escobar was already a major leaguer. So not really, in my opinion.

 

A better comparison to the Liriano-Escobar trade would be the Lynn-Austin trade.

[stringer bell]

Not many players come back to a team that they are traded from in midseason. The only Twin I recall is Rick Aguilera and he came back to be a starter after being in the bullpen for years with the Twins. 

 

I think all of the talk about players not wanting to come to Minnesota is overblown. First of all, it depends on what an individual is looking for--fishing lakes an hour away, manageable traffic, great places to eat--or it might depend on who the player knows in the organization. The Twins did sign three free agents last winter and spring in Lynn, Morrison, and Reed. I thought they were all nice moves, but none of them panned out. 

 

My guess is the two biggest priorities for a free agent (outside of money) are playing time and a chance to get to the World Series. Last year a lot of us were pretty bullish on this team and a year from now we might be again. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Escobar was already a major leaguer. So not really, in my opinion.

A better comparison to the Liriano-Escobar trade would be the Lynn-Austin trade.

 

He was an after-thought we acquired to dump an expiring player.

 

Not everyone has to be a big name prospect or Top 100 guy to end up being a valuable acquisition. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Not everyone has to be a big name prospect or Top 100 guy to end up being a valuable acquisition.

 

No doubt about it. I hope they found some future major league ballplayers in those trades.

[jokin]

 

At least the current FO is trying something different than the McPhail, Ryan, Smith or Antony did.  Time will tell but some do not like to wait. Milwaukee got to where they did in part by these kinds of trades. They sold to Houston and ended up  Hader, Santana and one of the players they traded for Moustakis.  They got Davies who had a good year last year but had shoulder issues this year on a deadline deal the same year.

 

old nurse... I like the new you...

[h2oface]

 

He was an after-thought we acquired to dump an expiring player.

 

Not everyone has to be a big name prospect or Top 100 guy to end up being a valuable acquisition. 

 

'Tis true. And....... it sometimes takes years for the aquisition to be considered valuable. 

 

And on some teams, career league average is even considered valuable, especially on the end of a career 2/3 year above that average.

[jokin]

 

I care.

The players cared.

 

I'm not convinced... and I still don't care if the players cared...

 

Truth is...

 

They almost all flat punked-out this year (apparently), evidently as their "caring" tribute and in honor of Escobar's career year.

[KGB]

 

Well we know that Escobar was willing to forgo free agency, we know that the Twins did offer him a contract and we also know that the consensus is that Arizona got him for a bargain price. 

 

That coupled with Arizona's long history of being more attractive to athletes (and moderators) than Minnesota, what we know is much more indicative that Escobar just didn't want to be here.

We also know the FO decided to trade him and don't sign any players last year with more than a 1 year contract.  Seems to indicate the FO didn't want him here.

[h2oface]

 

I'm not convinced... and I still don't care if the players cared...

 

Truth is...

 

They almost all flat punked-out this year (apparently), evidently as their "caring" tribute and in honor of Escobar's career year.

 

I read the 'players' referred to here as the ones traded for, not our guys traded..... the new aquisitions, not the Doziers and Escobars.....  ??

 

The new minor league prospects.... they care. I could be wrong.....

[yarnivek1972]

.... and he plays outfield well, something Escobar is horrible at.

Escobar is a subpar fielder pretty much anywhere.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I'm not convinced... and I still don't care if the players cared...

 

Truth is...

 

They almost all flat punked-out this year (apparently), evidently as their "caring" tribute and in honor of Escobar's career year.

Not quite sure I follow. Rosario, Escobar and Kepler carried the team thorough the first part of the season while the other guys either struggled to make plays or disappeared to the disabled list. Not sure we need to follow that tangent here. Yes I agree this may be Escobar's career season.

[nicksaviking]

I care.

The players cared.

I empathize with the fans who wanted to watch the best possible team even in a lost season. But judging by the fans in the stands, the game thread participation/death and surely the TV ratings, your passion was surpassed by a mountain of apathy and frustration.

 

Choosing to stick with a fruitless present to appease a minority of fans would have been irresponsible. They aren’t going to win back the fans by putting their best team on the field after everyone has already tuned out. They’ll win them back by putting their best team on the field next April and the April after that and the one after that.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I empathize with the fans who wanted to watch the best possible team even in a lost season. But judging by the fans in the stands, the game thread participation/death and surely the TV ratings, your passion was surpassed by a mountain of apathy and frustration.

Choosing to stick with a fruitless present to appease a minority of fans would have been irresponsible. They aren’t going to win back the fans by putting their best team on the field after everyone has already tuned out. They’ll win them back by putting their best team on the field next April and the April after that and the one after that.

I guess the difference is that a lot of people here have bought in to the idea of "sustainability" and the front office's claim that they will field a championship-caliber team year after year. I don't buy it. I think it's just words, to placate ownership and the fan base. We'll see how much the players and fans care next year when they are 16 games out of first on July 27 next year instead of 7 games out. By the way, Milwaukee was 6 games out of first on August 28th of this year. The future is bright, but 2018 still had some life in it too. But 2019, not so much, in my opinion, fruitless yes I agree. 2020 should be better.

[TheLeviathan]

Your comparison with Milwaukee is obviously flawed and I think you know that.  It'd help if we dealt with things as they are rather than twisting them to fit a narrative.  

 

I don't think it has anything to do with buying "sustainability" and everything to do with wanting a FO that recognizes when to act based on statistical analysis and not best case scenario fan hopes.  Selling on Escobar is the kind of move that landed us Escobar in the first place.  Investing playing time in lost seasons are how we ended up with Dozier and Pressley.  

 

Maybe we'll be lucky enough in a few years to say selling on expiring players landed us the next Escobar.  Or the time invested in Austin, Cave, Austidillo, or others will land us the next Dozier.  Maybe not.  None of us know.

 

Yet you insinuate we're all being suckered by the FO, but this is exactly what most of us wanted when we asked for Ryan to be fired.  All we're doing is being consistent with our views.  We want a FO that will act aggressively and wisely.  Plain and simple.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Your comparison with Milwaukee is obviously flawed and I think you know that.  It'd help if we dealt with things as they are rather than twisting them to fit a narrative.  

 

I don't think it has anything to do with buying "sustainability" and everything to do with wanting a FO that recognizes when to act based on statistical analysis and not best case scenario fan hopes.  Selling on Escobar is the kind of move that landed us Escobar in the first place.  Investing playing time in lost seasons are how we ended up with Dozier and Pressley.  

 

Maybe we'll be lucky enough in a few years to say selling on expiring players landed us the next Escobar.  Or the time invested in Austin, Cave, Austidillo, or others will land us the next Dozier.  Maybe not.  None of us know.

 

Yet you insinuate we're all being suckered by the FO, but this is exactly what most of us wanted when we asked for Ryan to be fired.  All we're doing is being consistent with our views.  We want a FO that will act aggressively and wisely.  Plain and simple.

As am I. Thanks.

[USAFChief]

Escobar was already a major leaguer. So not really, in my opinion.

A better comparison to the Liriano-Escobar trade would be the Lynn-Austin trade.

None of the players acquired by the Twins had played a game above low A ball.

 

It’s more like trading in your leased car for three lotto tickets.

[USAFChief]

I empathize with the fans who wanted to watch the best possible team even in a lost season. But judging by the fans in the stands, the game thread participation/death and surely the TV ratings, your passion was surpassed by a mountain of apathy and frustration.

Choosing to stick with a fruitless present to appease a minority of fans would have been irresponsible. They aren’t going to win back the fans by putting their best team on the field after everyone has already tuned out. They’ll win them back by putting their best team on the field next April and the April after that and the one after that.

It’s a bit of a circular argument to claim interest in the team waned AFTER the trades as evidence FOR the trades, no?

[Major League Ready]

 

I guess the difference is that a lot of people here have bought in to the idea of "sustainability" and the front office's claim that they will field a championship-caliber team year after year. I don't buy it. I think it's just words, to placate ownership and the fan base. We'll see how much the players and fans care next year when they are 16 games out of first on July 27 next year instead of 7 games out. By the way, Milwaukee was 6 games out of first on August 28th of this year. The future is bright, but 2018 still had some life in it too. But 2019, not so much, in my opinion, fruitless yes I agree. 2020 should be better.

 

That’s not what sustainability means. The validity of most strategies / concepts is nullified when taken to an extreme as you have here. No MLB team has fielded a championship caliber team year after year. If stated as a goal, it means to do achieve this level as often or consistently as possible.

 

Managing for sustainability means emphasizing things like analytics, player development, scouting, talent evaluation, conditioning, etc. These are practices/programs that promote sustained performance. These practices yield better drafts, trade results and maximizing player potential.

 

It also means managing assets in a manner that maximizes the talent level and return on trades over the entire length of time a transaction impacts the organization as opposed to the immediate term or next year. There is a great deal of short-term emphasis among some fans and you will have a problem with any good GM as long as you remain short-term focused. Selling at the deadline this year is a good example. The Twins could have won a couple more games in a lost season. To forgo adding as many prospects as they did for a minuscule shot at winning the division, especially given they would have been huge underdogs against any of the playoff teams that made it would have been absolutely incompetent.

[TheLeviathan]

 

None of the players acquired by the Twins had played a game above low A ball.

It’s more like trading in your leased car for three lotto tickets.

 

Escobar was a .550 OPS player who never even sniffed a .750 OPS in the minors.  When the trade was made we (myself included) mocked the trade for crappy value and considered Escobar nothing more than the same kind of 40 man filler Ryan was a pro at acquiring.

 

Escobar wasn't even good enough to be a lotto ticket.  He was more like a faded McDonald's Monopoly tab.  But when you manage your assets well....sometimes you get lucky.  If Ryan had done that more often maybe we wouldn't have had such a barren system.

 

Thankfully, at least the new guys are doing the right thing.  (You know...like Milwaukee!) Now we wait and see if they have the right touch for how they did it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Your comparison with Milwaukee is obviously flawed and I think you know that.  It'd help if we dealt with things as they are rather than twisting them to fit a narrative.  

 

I don't think it has anything to do with buying "sustainability" and everything to do with wanting a FO that recognizes when to act based on statistical analysis and not best case scenario fan hopes.  Selling on Escobar is the kind of move that landed us Escobar in the first place.  Investing playing time in lost seasons are how we ended up with Dozier and Pressley.  

 

Maybe we'll be lucky enough in a few years to say selling on expiring players landed us the next Escobar.  Or the time invested in Austin, Cave, Austidillo, or others will land us the next Dozier.  Maybe not.  None of us know.

 

Yet you insinuate we're all being suckered by the FO, but this is exactly what most of us wanted when we asked for Ryan to be fired.  All we're doing is being consistent with our views.  We want a FO that will act aggressively and wisely.  Plain and simple.

This sums up my feelings pretty well.

 

I don't need to agree with everything this front office does to appreciate their relative consistency. And that's good enough for me, really. If I agreed with everything the front office did, it likely means that front office is running the team into the ground in some capacity.

 

I want them to be smarter than me and the only way they can prove that is with a pretty lengthy timeline. Thus far, the results have been mixed (Chargois, for example) but those decisions aren't what makes or breaks a baseball team over the long run (provided they remain rare and isolated).

[nicksaviking]

 

It’s a bit of a circular argument to claim interest in the team waned AFTER the trades as evidence FOR the trades, no?

 

No, the interest in the team waned after they started tanking in May and June. Most of their audience was gone well before they decided to trade.

 

If they want to keep interest they need to put a continually good product on the field all year long. All teams have ups and downs, but interesting teams don't bottom out as thoroughly as this team seems to do at least once a year.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

.......Managing for sustainability means emphasizing things like analytics, player development, scouting, talent evaluation, conditioning, etc. These are practices/programs that promote sustained performance. These practices yield better drafts, trade results and maximizing player potential.........

Perhaps so, but I don't see how these things are any different that what other teams are doing. It's dressed up in really nice language but ultimately it sounds like jargon to me (and others). I'm sure you can see my point of view, even if you don't agree. 

 

If my skepticism crosses the line into the personal, I apologize. For your part, calling the things I and others were advocating for "absolutely incompetent" or "laughed out of the room" also seems a little demeaning. 

 

I will end by saying something positive about the front office: They have had two excellent drafts so far. (The Rule 4 variety, not Rule 5 )

[MABB1959]

I am probably going to get a big thumbs down or worse but....to me it seems like they either do not want to or do not know  how work with the Latino players.  Seems like they are easily benched for sent down if they have one or two bad games, while Dozier could have a half season of poor play and still be in the line-up every day.  Kepler maybe should have seen the bench a few more times. Morrison got way more time then he deserved.  Maybe the Latino players to not feel like they will be given the same chances?  Vargas up and down and no consistent playing time. Romero was doing well enough to be here at the end of the year to play..  Even Esocbar wouldn't have been given many chances w/o all the injuries. Can someone explain how the let Vargas go, brought him back and never gave him a chance even at the end of the year when there was nothing left to lose.