Should/Will Twins re-sign Torii Hunter?

[Dr. Evil]

He would be a decent pinch hit option on the bench. We don't have that now. But not a starter please.

[sane]

 

I presume the prevailing opinion out here is that they should not, but maybe there are some who feel differently. After all, Rosario and Hicks and Buxton and Arcia and Kepler all should have significant question marks.

 

But will they? Local, fan favorite, team leader, proclaimed mentor...and he might be that much cheaper to sign. I'm a lot less sure about that. What do your crystal ball say?

Only a team which would try to bring back Jason Bartlett, Matt Guerrier and Jason Kubel would make a mistake like that...........OOOPS!

[Eris]

 

At $10.5 million, couldn't the Twins have signed a better player as a better mentor? Why Hunter?

 

 

 

Better players do not equal better mentors.  Hunter's leadership and work ethic was well known and the team lacked good leadership and players had become accustomed to losing.  Bringing Hunter back was the right decision and a great signing.  The Twins were also competing with the Royals for Hunter (http://www.kansascity.com/sports/mlb/kansas-city-royals/article4251917.html).   For next year, they should offer Tori a position as a coach or in the front office.  However, if Tori wants to play an additional year, a team desiring veteran leadership will be willing to sign him.  We need to remember that many of these young players are in there very early 20's and can be easily influenced both positively and negatively by who they hang out with every day.  

[SwainZag]

At $10.5 million, couldn't the Twins have signed a better player as a better mentor? Why Hunter?

 

Torii Hunter left the Twins on his own accord. I have no feelings of loyalty to or from him. Hunter had a decent offensive season in Detroit, but the Twins overpaid for his services, and they will again if he re-signs.

 

The outfielder I would have liked the Twins to go after was Nelson Cruz. Of the outfield free agents, he had the second most pop behind Victor Martinez, and Seattle got Cruz for a 4 year $57 million contract ($14.25 million per season) rather than the 4 yr $68 million ($17 million per season) that Martinez received to stay in Detroit. Both players have had up and down histories, but four year contracts are a pretty good length for 34/35 year old veterans.

Yet you are comparing a 1 year deal to 4 year contracts, not even in the same realm of comparisons.

[kab21]

And that was why Hunter was a fairly good signing last offseason.  The Twins needed a stopgap that could play reasonably well before the prospects started coming up.  the Twins didn't need a 34 yr old dreadfully awful fielder that should only DH clogging up the roster for 4 years.  My hope is that he isn't brought back as a starter but I have a feeling that will happen.  That is the concern here.

[mikelink45]

This is really more of a referendum on TR.  His logic is beyond most of us and his desire to have wily vets on the staff is so strong I fear both Hunter and Pelfrey.  The fact that Berrios did not get any call up yet, that we have broken Arcia's spirit, and that we set back Pinto and we have not restored Buxton to the big leagues tells my TR story.  I believe he needs to have more time off, maybe 365 days a year and we need to do what the other teams have done and reach out to someone who knows how to use the tools that are now available to evaluate the team and players on it. 

[Eris]

 

Just curious, does Twins Daily group think really dismiss organizational values such as leadership and loyalty completely out of hand?  Of course, there's a point where such values have diminishing returns, but are we so obviously beyond that threshold with Hunter?  (I feel the need to note that baseball players are  not statistical output machines, they are people who require something more than fuel to maximize their abilities).

 

I can only speak for myself.  Having worked for 3 multinational organizations, values (organizational and individual) and corporate culture are probably the most important attributes contributing to the success of an organization.  I can't imagine why a baseball team would be different.  What are the expectations and values players have?  Is it OK to be out drinking at 4:00 a.m. before any game including 163 (OK, the Twins benefited from this).  If you are a potential future power hitter, but are a lousy outfielder (Arcia) do you take extra fielding practice to improve your game.  If the shift is killing your batting average, can you learn to hit to the opposite field?  Hard work and dedication are probably more important than ever in modern baseball.  The digitization of everything means that players weakness's are more easily discovered and disseminated.  To overcome this, players have to make continuous improvements in their game. 

 

The history of baseball (and sports in general) is full of talented people and teams who never lived up to their potential and others who have exceeded all expectations.  What normally separates these players is work ethic and values.  As it relates to the Twins, the Twins-way of the Tom Kelley era seems to have been lost in the organization.  Although I think that is now changing with people like Doug Mientkiewicz and Molitor playing a significant role in this.  

 

An article about the 2011 Red Sox (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/20/sports/baseball/red-sox-off-season-consumed-by-fried-chicken-and-beer.html?_r=0) attributes their late season collapse to poor work ethic and a bad culture.  Whether coincidental or not, all these players are gone from the team.  Here is an article about the current Red Sox team attributing their difficult year to the poor character of Sandovol and Rameriz (http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/boston-red-sox-pablo-sandoval-hanley-ramirez-trade-ken-rosenthal-061915).

[Trov]

I think it will depend on what, if any, trades are made with the other OF.  I was happy with the signing last year, and is paying off the way I expected.  His numbers are average, his defense is below average now, but he did help Hicks, I do believe he had a big hand in it.  I would only do it, if he accepts a 4th OF spot, with the sometimes DH.  I am a strong believer in chemistry on the team, in baseball only.  Hunter, and his dace party, has brought a good mind set to the team, and gave this team a leader to follow.  If the team feels they have a leader without Hunter and does not make a trade, then let him go, else I would be willing to bring him back for a limited role.

[Boom Boom]

Eventually they need to develop new clubhouse leaders or we might be having this same discussion when Torii is fifty.

[Mike Sixel]

well, it isnt true there are a lot of guys in their early twenties. And, that red Sox explanation was not an issue during the year. It is a post hoc explanation. They are tons of teams that didn't get along that won. I am not arguing culture doesn't matter. But talent matters me in sports than in huge companies with thousands of employees. Hunter it's not a good player any more. How is that even debatable right now?

[Minniman]

 

Yet you are comparing a 1 year deal to 4 year contracts, not even in the same realm of comparisons.

 

Sign free agents that will help the team for more than a year. Do not overpay for stopgap players or third starters making second starter money.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Sign free agents that will help the team for more than a year. Do not overpay for stopgap players or third starters making second starter money.

Say it with me, everyone:

 

There's no such thing as a bad one year contract.

 

The Twins could have given Hunter $20m this season and I wouldn't have cared. Overpaying stopgap players is a non-issue. The entire point of signing a stopgap player is that you WANT them to go away after a season or two. If it costs a couple extra million to sign that player so you don't have to deal with the back 1-2 years of a Nolasco-esque contract, that's a GOOD thing.

 

Hunter helped the Twins this season. Yay! The Twins no longer need OF help for 2016 so Hunter leaves. Yay!

[DaveW]

Say it with me, everyone:

 

There's no such thing as a bad one year contract.

 

The Twins could have given Hunter $20m this season and I wouldn't have cared. Overpaying stopgap players is a non-issue. The entire point of signing a stopgap player is that you WANT them to go away after a season or two. If it costs a couple extra million to sign that player so you don't have to deal with the back 1-2 years of a Nolasco-esque contract, that's a GOOD thing.

 

Hunter helped the Twins this season. Yay! The Twins no longer need OF help for 2016 so Hunter leaves. Yay!

did he help this year? Is it so crazy to think that a combination of Arcia and a legit platoon partner wouldn't have put up better numbers? While saving the twins 10 million or so where they could have brought in some BP or C help as well?

[kab21]

 

did he help this year? Is it so crazy to think that a combination of Arcia and a legit platoon partner wouldn't have put up better numbers? While saving the twins 10 million or so where they could have brought in some BP or C help as well?

Arcia was already expected to contribute.  The Twins have gotten lucky that Rosario (almost out of nowhere) has been able to pick up the slack as well as he has.  They needed somebody in the OF. 

 

But he hasn't helped in Jul/Aug (and Apr).  He has been dreadful recently.  that will be the one thing that could lead to him not being resigned by JR.

[Platoon]

Better players do not equal better mentors.  Hunter's leadership and work ethic was well known and the team lacked good leadership and players had become accustomed to losing.  Bringing Hunter back was the right decision and a great signing.  The Twins were also competing with the Royals for Hunter (http://www.kansascity.com/sports/mlb/kansas-city-royals/article4251917.html).   For next year, they should offer Tori a position as a coach or in the front office.  However, if Tori wants to play an additional year, a team desiring veteran leadership will be willing to sign him.  We need to remember that many of these young players are in there very early 20's and can be easily influenced both positively and negatively by who they hang out with every day.

 

Where in the name of Bud Selig would Hunter get to play in the KC outfield? I did not like the Hunter signing, but I could have lived with it as a DH, limited 4th OF. That's what old soon to retire veterans normally do. There are several on here who are sure he is not going to be brought back. These must be recent MN transplants, as they have not observed TR in action. He will be back, and he will be starting. I am not sure he is over the Mendoza Line since July 1, and he still starts, while the Twins continue to struggle to score runs.

[Platoon]

Arcia was already expected to contribute.  The Twins have gotten lucky that Rosario (almost out of nowhere) has been able to pick up the slack as well as he has.  They needed somebody in the OF. 

 

But he hasn't helped in Jul/Aug (and Apr).  He has been dreadful recently.  that will be the one thing that could lead to him not being resigned by JR.

The Arcia thing is not just about playing ability. His numbers were not that bad this year, and then he got hurt. First they jerked him out of RF. was he good there, no. But why would anyone think moving him around would help, and his arm plays better there than Hunters. There is something else going on. He went down for re-hab, and then suddenly it was announced that re-hab does not include a ticket back? That was a new and relatively player specific program it seems. Even when he hit, he did not come back. I would not be at all surprised if he figures that this year is lost. Next year he is either in MN, or somewhere else. It ain't gonna be Rochester, and he knows that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

did he help this year? Is it so crazy to think that a combination of Arcia and a legit platoon partner wouldn't have put up better numbers? While saving the twins 10 million or so where they could have brought in some BP or C help as well?

I don't think he has been a huge help but he has done his job. Remember the OF situation going into this season:

 

Hicks

Arcia

Robinson

Rosario

 

Number of legit full MLB seasons between all those players?

 

Zero.

 

Hunter did exactly what was asked of him. It's not Torii's fault the front office refuses to start moving on in the second half of the season once the young players started taking their rightful place as every day regulars.

 

The MLB season is fluid. What the Twins needed in April is not necessarily what they need in August. Signing Torii in December looks like the right move. Keeping Torii as a starter in August does not look like the right move.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

 

Doesn't really matter what you do and don't buy. The reality is they don't have one guy on the roster that is a sure thing to make it through the season as a productive OF. They'll want some guaranteed floor as a backup plan, or perhaps you haven't had enough of utility guys getting starts.

How does Hunter provide some kind of guarantee? I agree with you, I think that TR will try to resign Hunter, and probably succeed as some kind of safety net. But should he? Nope! Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

 

Utility guys getting starts in the outfield isn't for lack of outfielders available. Its for lack of appreciation for good fielding outfielders.

 

TR should spend his offseason improving catcher, SS, and bullpen, and offloading crap contracts such as Nolasco's. Don't resign Hunter, please?

[drjim]

How does Hunter provide some kind of guarantee? I agree with you, I think that TR will try to resign Hunter, and probably succeed as some kind of safety net. But should he? Nope! Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.

 

Utility guys getting starts in the outfield isn't for lack of outfielders available. Its for lack of appreciation for good fielding outfielders.

 

TR should spend his offseason improving catcher, SS, and bullpen, and offloading crap contracts such as Nolasco's. Don't resign Hunter, please?

I don't especially want Hunter back either. But I would like the Twins to have an OF in addition to the starters Rosario/Buxton/Hicks and Kepler in the minors.

[Jham]

I don't get the hating on Hunter.  I really don't.  What exactly has he done wrong since he's gotten here?  He was signed as an insurance policy, and despite Rosario's success Hick's success, we STILL needed him.  Anyone arguing for him not to be resigned next year would have a more credible position if they could admit that signing him this year was a straight up good if not great signing.  It did not hurt the development of any players, and it probably furthered the development of others.  The experience, professionalism, study habits, and leadership should benefit the team long after he retires.  He's basically done everything we've asked of him. 

 

His biggest knock coming in was defense.  Evidently he's been better than average defensively this year.  His hitting has slumped, but he hasn't been any worse than Dozier.  No one's clamoring to replace Dozier with Polanco next season because of a bad month.  

 

You could have far far worse options as a 4th outfielder than Torii Hunter.  And if Hicks goes back to being Hicks and Rosario goes all Danny Santana as sophomore next season, you'll be glad we have him or wish we had him back.  Wait, no you won't.  Not if you can't appreciate the season he's had this year.  And we can go back to Joe Mauer being the leader of the team.

 

I would feel much more comfortable about our outfield next year if we re-signed Hunter.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't especially want Hunter back either. But I would like the Twins to have an OF in addition to the starters Rosario/Buxton/Hicks and Kepler in the minors.

 

This is the best reason not to sign Hunter.  We need a versatile OF to back this group up.

[Danchat]

 

Where in the name of Bud Selig would Hunter get to play in the KC outfield? I did not like the Hunter signing, but I could have lived with it as a DH, limited 4th OF. That's what old soon to retire veterans normally do. There are several on here who are sure he is not going to be brought back. These must be recent MN transplants, as they have not observed TR in action. He will be back, and he will be starting. I am not sure he is over the Mendoza Line since July 1, and he still starts, while the Twins continue to struggle to score runs.

Right field, where former free agent Alex Rios is playing. They tried to get Hunter in that spot but had to settle for Rios. 

[drjim]

This is the best reason not to sign Hunter. We need a versatile OF to back this group up.

I would say the opposite. The versatility of the starters (all can play all 3 positions) allows the Twins to give up some defense for more bat.

 

Not saying that's Hunter but there is flexibility to go pretty much any direction.

[stringer bell]

 

I don't get the hating on Hunter.  I really don't.  What exactly has he done wrong since he's gotten here?  He was signed as an insurance policy, and despite Rosario's success Hick's success, we STILL needed him.  Anyone arguing for him not to be resigned next year would have a more credible position if they could admit that signing him this year was a straight up good if not great signing.  It did not hurt the development of any players, and it probably furthered the development of others.  The experience, professionalism, study habits, and leadership should benefit the team long after he retires.  He's basically done everything we've asked of him. 

 

His biggest knock coming in was defense.  Evidently he's been better than average defensively this year.  His hitting has slumped, but he hasn't been any worse than Dozier.  No one's clamoring to replace Dozier with Polanco next season because of a bad month.  

 

You could have far far worse options as a 4th outfielder than Torii Hunter.  And if Hicks goes back to being Hicks and Rosario goes all Danny Santana as sophomore next season, you'll be glad we have him or wish we had him back.  Wait, no you won't.  Not if you can't appreciate the season he's had this year.  And we can go back to Joe Mauer being the leader of the team.

 

I would feel much more comfortable about our outfield next year if we re-signed Hunter.

Most of the above post is a nice defense for signing Hunter last year. In retrospect, the signing of Hunter is defensible, if not a good move. But going into 2016, Eddie Rosario, Byron Buxton and Aaron Hicks will all have made gigantic steps toward establishing themselves, and Max Kepler will have put up dominant numbers at AA. Add in the possibility of an Arcia rebound and there are five players to fill the three outfield spots.

 

While Hunter hasn't really stood in anyone's way this year, the situation would likely be different next year.

[spinowner]

 

 

While Hunter hasn't really stood in anyone's way this year, the situation would likely be different next year.

Exactly. 2016 is when the outfield prospects are ready to become players.

[Jham]

 

Most of the above post is a nice defense for signing Hunter last year. In retrospect, the signing of Hunter is defensible, if not a good move. But going into 2016, Eddie Rosario, Byron Buxton and Aaron Hicks will all have made gigantic steps toward establishing themselves, and Max Kepler will have put up dominant numbers at AA. Add in the possibility of an Arcia rebound and there are five players to fill the three outfield spots.

 

While Hunter hasn't really stood in anyone's way this year, the situation would likely be different next year.

 

Perfectly stated without bashing or diminishing one of the great Twins of the last 20 years.  As I said, re-signing him would be a luxury for me.  A measure of comfort.  Who knows if he'd even be ok with that sort of role next year. 

 

I know Hunter has no trade value at all.  I can think of a few young outfielders who do have trade value.  If upgrading the front of the rotation or shortstop or catching situation requires losing an OF prospect, then, once again, I think you could do far worse than bringing back Hunter.  I just hate the talk in absolutes.  It screams of spite or personal passion replacing reason and logic.  I'd rather see Hunter retire a Twin if he can handle taking a reduced role.  If not, I think he still considers himself a Twins family member when he retires.

[jimmer]

.238/.292/.420. wRC+ of 94 and -8 DRS.   0.8 WAR.

[USAFChief]

.238/.292/.420. wRC+ of 94 and -8 DRS.   0.8 WAR.

His OPS is within .006 of Mauer, despite the past month.

 

He has an UZR around 3, so a fair appraisal, if one is going to use metrics, would include both.

 

He is certainly struggling, and likely wont be needed in 2016, but he has almost certainly given the Twins more than they would have gotten had they not signed an outfielder.

[jimmer]

Mauer has sucked too, but not sure why that matters when discussing Hunter.

 

Hunter's UZR is slightly over 2, not close to 3. and is an overall negative on defense.

 

It's somewhat hard to produce less than no one at all.  He's not given us much from an on-field view, especially from a position that is supposed to be an offensive force. Overall, 25th out of 32 players with 300 or more PA in RF.

 

It is sad this was the best TR could do and speaks to our farm system. I imagine he inspired a lot of ticket sales.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- the topic here is should or will the Twins re-sign Hunter.