Rockies 10, Twins 6: Humiliating Defeat Leaves Twins on Ropes with Deadline Looming

[karcherd]

New ownership can't happen soon enough.  This organization needs a top to bottom honest assessment of everything from players, player development, coaching, and organizational philosophy.

How can every young player come up here and either have a little success then regress or not have success at all.  Yes I know not all prospects become stars or even competent major leaguers.  But either their assessment and drafting of players is really bad or they are not being developed correctly.  

What is the plan for this organization, they will play stopgap veterans and will not move on when they can get similar results from the players they supposedly developed and could find out if that development will pay off.  Leaving Anthony M. up here in place of Adams is just another example of this.

Put players at one position and let them get comfortable.  You could see Correa and Castro talking after the force out at second last night.  Correa plays with a different partner at 2B every night, reps do matter in getting comfortable and helping defensive communication.  And give players regular AB's regardless of who is pitching.

I want to see Lewis, Lee, Wallner, and Larnach in the lineup on a regular basis and fill in the other players around them.  Find out if they can be a part of the core and if not make the necessary adjustments going into next season.  And let the young starters stay in the rotation the rest of the year, one will need to be sent down for Lopez.  But I don't want to see Paddack getting starts over them.

I am just very frustrated with this team and the leadership from the front office down to the field staff.

 

[sstolen]

Sell. Don't buy. Sell

[Aggies7]

2-3 against Pittsburgh and Colorado, who are a mind blowing 71 games below .500 combined

The long winning streak was the worst thing to happen (for the second year in a row now). False hope for an organization going nowhere.

[Sjoski]

7 hours ago, knothole61 said:

50 days until the rookie QB starts his first regular season NFL game in Chicago, on Monday night, against a likely resurgent Bears squad...what could go wrong? Love the Vikes, but I fear that my sports agony may not end soon. Timberwolves, maybe? 

We always have the Lynx and Frost to bail us out. 😞

[Sjoski]

"Twins losing 5-10, which is the number of players they might trade away at the deadline."

After the Dodgers series and an 0-6 start to the second half, hopefully the number is 10. 

[shimrod]

22 minutes ago, karcherd said:

How can every young player come up here and either have a little success then regress or not have success at all.  Yes I know not all prospects become stars or even competent major leaguers.  But either their assessment and drafting of players is really bad or they are not being developed correctly. 

Too many high draft picks failing for it to be a talent issue, IMO. Twins internally developed prospects are regularly outperformed by cast offs from other organizations. Twins prospects arrive with poor fundamental skills and are expected to improve in an extremely fluid (to be charitable) environment. No positional stability and little to no accountability.

From here it looks like a development issue. 

 

[lake_guy]

9 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

People are talking about Jeffers bad game. Well they can add the 6 straight fastballs Jeffers called for Brock Stewart to throw in that 5th, and Stewart threw every single one of them middle-middle or middle up at 96-97 mph.

I thought Stewart would wiggle out of that inning but Tovar was sitting on that first pitch fastball and crushed it. . 

So how is pitch calling supposed to work?  Jeffers looked into the dugout before calling those pitches, were our coaches asleep at the wheel and didn't notice him calling fastballs and signal something else?  

[Aggies7]

9 minutes ago, shimrod said:

Too many high draft picks failing for it to be a talent issue, IMO. Twins internally developed prospects are regularly outperformed by cast offs from other organizations. Twins prospects arrive with poor fundamental skills and are expected to improve in an extremely fluid (to be charitable) environment. No positional stability and little to no accountability.

From here it looks like a development issue. 

 

Right? It seems like every week we face some young dominant arm and our young starters either can’t get to or aren’t allowed to get past the 5th inning. How many quality starting pitchers have the twins developed in the last 15 years?

[shimrod]

14 minutes ago, lake_guy said:

Jeffers looked into the dugout before calling those pitches, were our coaches asleep at the wheel and didn't notice him calling fastballs and signal something else?

If Twins coaches are actually calling pitches from the bench we've identified at least one of the problems.

[Old Crow]

5 minutes ago, shimrod said:

If Twins coaches are actually calling pitches from the bench we've identified at least one of the problems.

You think?

[mikelink45]

We no longer need the comedic columns - the Twins provide enough on the field. 

At least Minnesota Nice prevailed and we are trying to help the Rockies from the worst record in history so our friends in Chicago can retain that distinction.

[karcherd]

Regarding pitch selection, this has come up before.  Shoemaker left town complaining about how they wanted him to pitch and to use his least effective pitch more.  Now he didn't do well here so he could just be bitter.  Duran has also hinted at this a couple of times.  It does feel like they want the analytics to drive pitch selection whether that is the pitcher's strength or not.  They do not use analytics as a tool but as the only way to do things it appears. 

On the radio last night they were talking about how they wanted to throw fastballs to the Rockies because the analytics say that is the way to pitch to them.  This could be why we were seeing more fastballs.  But they have to be commanded well and not down the middle of the plate.  

But every pitcher is different and are they taking this into account.  It looks like they are doing a one size fits all but do we really know how they are calling pitches.

[Blyleven2011]

Colorado has been playing lousy , really lousy but the fans are filling the stands and averaging 30 thousand per game ...

The Colorado fans were rewarded with their first series win at home at the expense of the twins and have something to talk about ...

Well the twins fans have something to talk about too , WE'RE LOSERS and we're not the lovable losers ...

[chpettit19]

On the pitch selection stuff for Stewart...

On the season Stewart throws his 4 seamer (54.7), cutter (11.4), and sinker (11) 77.1% of the time.

Yesterday he threw 6 four seamers (66%), 1 cutter (11), and 1 sinker (11) out of 9 pitches. That's 88% for them as a whole. That's 1 pitch (extra 4 seamer) more than his average (8 out of 9 instead of 7 out of 9). Stewart throws a lot of fastballs. If you're just noticing it now, you haven't been paying attention.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, lake_guy said:

So how is pitch calling supposed to work?  Jeffers looked into the dugout before calling those pitches, were our coaches asleep at the wheel and didn't notice him calling fastballs and signal something else?  

Good catch. Were the coaches asleep, you ask? Probably, I would say.

I do think throwing every pitch in the exact same location was the biggest problem there, which I mentioned. Ultimately that falls on Stewart. But hey, shout out to Stewart for being able to locate your fastball and throwing strikes. 🙂

[David Maro]

Because of how bad this clown show is they are pitching Ryan today. They really needed to save him for Monday or Tuesday against the Dodgers. If they were 1-1 in the series they probably would have had SWR or Festa go. 

They can sell at the deadline,but what is going to change. They still have the same management in the office and dugout.

[TheLeviathan]

15 minutes ago, David Maro said:

Because of how bad this clown show is they are pitching Ryan today. They really needed to save him for Monday or Tuesday against the Dodgers. If they were 1-1 in the series they probably would have had SWR or Festa go. 

They can sell at the deadline,but what is going to change. They still have the same management in the office and dugout.

What could change is having more talent for some future season.  Talent is the issue.

The Twins have a simple choice at this point: do nothing and have absolutely zero chance of having more talent in the years to come.....or sell and at least give yourself a half dozen young guys who might help a future team.

I'm not sure why any Twins fan would pick option 1.

[chpettit19]

40 minutes ago, David Maro said:

Because of how bad this clown show is they are pitching Ryan today. They really needed to save him for Monday or Tuesday against the Dodgers. If they were 1-1 in the series they probably would have had SWR or Festa go. 

They can sell at the deadline,but what is going to change. They still have the same management in the office and dugout.

Ryan has been scheduled to pitch today for days. He's known he was pitching today since he threw in the all star game and has built his bullpen and workout schedule around it. 

I'm all for firing everyone and getting some new blood in here, but they're not just making stuff up on the fly and moving starters around based on what games they win and lose. Ryan pitched Tuesday and then went into his normal 4 day schedule to be prepared to pitch today. If it's "clown show" to have your best pitcher follow his normal routine, I don't know what to tell you.

[AKTwinsFan]

The continued proverbial shooting of the foot is sad. If we had a smarter front office and management, we'd practice more catcher/pitcher fielding. Jeffers just couldn't resist picking up that ball on the edge of rolling foul, which ended up giving up 2 runs!

Our batting/hitting coach isn't doing much better than Popkins at getting our boys some hits. We need a batting coach that knows how to teach more contact style baseball. We lack hitting when it's needed. Especially our star players.

Then comes the first pitch swings which lead to a 8 pitch, 7 pitch, 6 pitch and 5 pitch innings. All which was obvious our manager wasn't doing his job. Idk what the strategy was, to try and end the inning the fastest? 

[shimrod]

2 hours ago, Sjoski said:

"Twins losing 5-10, which is the number of players they might trade away at the deadline."

After the Dodgers series and an 0-6 start to the second half, hopefully the number is 10. 

Team is playing like 5 or 10 wouldn't mind leaving. 

[David Maro]

How has selling improved this team other than Lopez and Ryan. They are still waiting on SWR and Martin. Bringing in talent to play in Wichita and St Paul hoping someone makes it to the show won't help. 

The team doesn't play baseball,they play homerun. Until they change their mindset it doesn't matter what the talent is. Yes the homerun has a place in the game,but can't be the end all be all.

[Doctor Gast]

I'll say it again, to win games we need good pitching, good defense, good baserunning, clutch hitting & chemistry. We got some offense, but not much clutch hitting or anything else. Get more big bats? Because of the hype on big bats, big bats are expensive. Getting a bunch HRs when we don't need them, doesn't win games if the other attributes are ignored.

If we had swept the ROX, I'd think nice. If we won the series, it's to be expected; you have to win those games, But lose a series to the worst team in baseball, Twins would have to do a lot of soul searching.

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Ryan has been scheduled to pitch today for days. He's known he was pitching today since he threw in the all star game and has built his bullpen and workout schedule around it. 

I'm all for firing everyone and getting some new blood in here, but they're not just making stuff up on the fly and moving starters around based on what games they win and lose. Ryan pitched Tuesday and then went into his normal 4 day schedule to be prepared to pitch today. If it's "clown show" to have your best pitcher follow his normal routine, I don't know what to tell you.

Why would the Twins, desperately clinging to fading postseason hopes, wait until Sunday to pitch their best starter?

He didnt "pitch Tuesday." He last pitched Friday the 11th (only going 5 innings, BTW). One inning Tuesday at the AS game is nothing more than a normal between starts bullpen.  He does a bullpen between starts normally, as does most every starter. 

There's  no good reason he didn't start the 1st game of this trip--on long rest--and be the one starter getting 2 starts on this road trip. Instead, for some silly reason, its Paddack. 

Self inflicted pain. Someone-coughRoccocough-should be fired over stupid **** like this.

 

[Doctor Gast]

3 hours ago, karcherd said:

Regarding pitch selection, this has come up before.  Shoemaker left town complaining about how they wanted him to pitch and to use his least effective pitch more.  Now he didn't do well here so he could just be bitter.  Duran has also hinted at this a couple of times.  It does feel like they want the analytics to drive pitch selection whether that is the pitcher's strength or not.  They do not use analytics as a tool but as the only way to do things it appears. 

On the radio last night they were talking about how they wanted to throw fastballs to the Rockies because the analytics say that is the way to pitch to them.  This could be why we were seeing more fastballs.  But they have to be commanded well and not down the middle of the plate.  

But every pitcher is different and are they taking this into account.  It looks like they are doing a one size fits all but do we really know how they are calling pitches.

SF went big in weird analytics through the president of operations, Farhan Zaidi & failed to qualify for the postseason for those years. They had to shake things up; they didn't tear everything down. FA Snell left & they signed FA  Adames; otherwise, it was the same roster. They just replaced Zaidi for baseball smart Buster Posey. Instead of taking years to turn things around, instantly, they have seen the difference.

Many are calling for a fire sale of the core. The core isn't the problem, it's the weird analytical philosophy & rejecting fundamental baseball. Clean house in management, top to bottom & replace it with smart baseball from personnel who know baseball, not nerds. I'm not against analytics as a tool, but not the driving force to justify your faulty philosophy.

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Why would the Twins, desperately clinging to fading postseason hopes, wait until Sunday to pitch their best starter?

He didnt "pitch Tuesday." He last pitched Friday the 11th (only going 5 innings, BTW). One inning Tuesday at the AS game is nothing more than a normal between starts bullpen.  He does a bullpen between starts normally, as does most every starter. 

There's  no good reason he didn't start the 1st game of this trip--on long rest--and be the one starter getting 2 starts on this road trip. Instead, for some silly reason, its Paddack. 

Self inflicted pain. Someone-coughRoccocough-should be fired over stupid **** like this.

 

Because he pitched Tuesday. Whether you want to admit it or not, he did. I know you think the Twins are completely and utterly incompetent, but the Mariners, also fighting for that last wild card spot are throwing Bryan Woo today. He also threw in that game that should apparently be ignored on Tuesday. Yankees fighting for their division or to stay in a wild card spot still haven't thrown Rodon. Fools! The Rays, trying to catch the wild card teams, haven't used Rasmussen yet. Not even today. Tigers are starting Skubal today, but haven't touched Mize yet (and his last start was only 3 innings on the 12th). But I'm sure they don't care about wins. And the Royals waited until today to use Bubic even though they're right with the Twins fighting for every last win to chase down the last wild card spot.

Maybe you're not so much smarter than all these teams? I mean, don't you think it's a little weird that not a single starter from that AL team has stepped on the mound yet? And some of them won't even step out there today even? But, sure, it's "nothing more than a normal between starts bullpen." Teams clearly agree.

[Larry Janisewski]

12 hours ago, DocBauer said:

I was doing the family thing and didn't get to watch. That's probably a good thing. I will say that with so much time missed, and oy 1 rehab start, 7 K's by Zebby and 16 whiffs is at least a small positive to take from the game.

Also, Clemens isn't great, and sure isn't consistent, but he has still found a way to make a difference at times, even in a loss. I think he's back next season, at least for ST.

TWO games right out of the break as losses doesn't change the course of the regular season. But against the worst team in baseball? And even if they win Sunday, they then go face the Dodgers in LA for 3 games that could be tough to win 1.

I don't like giving up on a season and not trying to turn it around with 2 1/2 months to go. Especially with Buxton having the best year of his career. But I think reality is staring the Twins in the face. 

And that reality says to keep trying. Hope Lewis, Correa, and Wallner turn it around. Keep giving starts to the young arms to help get ready for 2026, as well as some other young bats. But it's time to sell off the impending FA and try to make a couple shrewd trades for future help.

I think Paddack, Bader, Castro, and Coulombe have some decent value. Not so much Vazquez, unless someone is in desperate need for a veteran #2 catcher. MAYBE we can get a 1B that's blocked, as was recently proposed here on TD. MAYBE there's a couple of arms...possibly former top arms that need to move to the pen...that could help next year. MAYBE a solid 4th OF that's blocked and needing an opportunity to replace Bader. Maybe not, but it's time to see if the decent, solid FA you have can bring something back. Doesn't mean you have to quit trying to play better ball and try to finish the season strong. But this is not their year.

Rockies fans must be celebrating. The first time they have won back to back games all season!!!

At least Twins have Baldelli locked up for another season and probably won't do anything significant at the trade deadline.

[JD-TWINS]

15 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

People are talking about Jeffers bad game. Well they can add the 6 straight fastballs Jeffers called for Brock Stewart to throw in that 5th, and Stewart threw every single one of them middle-middle or middle up at 96-97 mph.

I thought Stewart would wiggle out of that inning but Tovar was sitting on that first pitch fastball and crushed it. . 

Stewart’s location on the HR - terrible.

Matthews location with his fastball, too often middle-middle.

Paddack, night before, 2 less mph & middle-middle. All very discouraging!

Stewart made a mistake - happens. The other two repeatedly were putting it on a tee. Ober & Lopez down and others in rotation not getting it done, even remotely.

[JD-TWINS]

14 hours ago, RpR said:

That can just as easily, and more likely, be, simply not enough talent to do in the Bigs what they did in the Minor League.

Not being able to adjust to pitchers adjust to them, separates, those with a good, or average career from the flash in the pan gents.

Cannot coach players into being star talent!

Players need to adjust and get better with their abilities and with what’s between their ears. Injuries play a big role. Our guys don’t seem to grow much after leaving St Paul….. I see that as just not drafting the right guys.

Really hoping Keaschall is healthy enough to get playing time soon - gotta believe that Lewis - Wallner - Keaschall become regular contributors at average or above average level. ……… I have very little confidence in Brooks Lee …… I don’t look at advanced metrics/data but I do see him rolling soft grounders to 2B & fouling out WAAAY too often!

[Major League Ready]

3 hours ago, David Maro said:

How has selling improved this team other than Lopez and Ryan. They are still waiting on SWR and Martin. Bringing in talent to play in Wichita and St Paul hoping someone makes it to the show won't help. 

The team doesn't play baseball,they play homerun. Until they change their mindset it doesn't matter what the talent is. Yes the homerun has a place in the game,but can't be the end all be all.

The point many here are making is the Twins are generally reluctant to act on selling opportunities, so you are asking then wrong question.  The question is has selling assets .5 - 1.5 years in advance of contract expirations contributed significantly to building more competitive teams for those teams that pursue this strategy.  The answer to that question is a resounding yes.  

[TheLeviathan]

3 hours ago, David Maro said:

How has selling improved this team other than Lopez and Ryan. They are still waiting on SWR and Martin. Bringing in talent to play in Wichita and St Paul hoping someone makes it to the show won't help. 

The team doesn't play baseball,they play homerun. Until they change their mindset it doesn't matter what the talent is. Yes the homerun has a place in the game,but can't be the end all be all.

Well first off...."other than Lopez and Ryan" is one hell of a caveat.  Selling got us our best pitcher and making a wise trade of Arraez got us our second best one.

I mean....that's the argument right there.  Sure, you misfire on guys like SWR and Martin.  That trade didn't work out.  You know what else is true?  We'd still be sitting here in 2025 with no Berrios.  Whether those guys don't contribute because they're never here, or weren't very good doesn't change that Berrios wasn't staying.

The alternative is really simple: if you want to do nothing, then you will add nothing to your chances going forward.  I assure you when the door closes on the 2027 season, we won't be bringing back Ober, Ryan, and Lopez.  Or Jax and Duran.  Some of them will be gone one way or the other.  The question is when do you move the ones you don't plan to retain.  Right now is when that conversation should be happening rather than when it's too late.