Twins 8, Cubs 1: Ryan Jeffers, Twins Ambush Cubs

[Melissa]

I was at Target Field last night and surrounded by Cubs fans. Splurged for this one and sat right behind the Twins dugout.

SWR being pulled after five was both disappointing and understandable. Giving up walks is I think his biggest issue.

Cubs fans were pretty hopeful in the top of the 8th when Jax let the first two batters on, but then quieted down when the next three made outs.

But that bottom of the 8th was so electric! I haven’t had so much fun at a Twins game all year! 

[NYCTK]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Once a series I will post the number of players on the opposing team that have 3 years or less experience. 

I do this so anyone inclined can easily compare and contrast. 

The Cubs are one of the few teams that compare with the Twins in regards to the youth on their roster.

The Cubs came to Target Field with 9 pre-arb players (less then 3 years experience) which is ranked near the bottom. 

The Twins are now up to 11 players with less than 3 years experience. 

The Cubs are currently 54-37

The Twins are 44-47

Cubs payroll is about 192M . The Twins payroll is 145M

I think this shows why a rebuild is necessary. They had timed this to be their peak. The height of this group of player's windows. 

Tear it down. Sell, sell, sell. 

[Melissa]

One of the cool things about sitting so close was watching Twins players returning to the dugout when the top of the inning ended. Players’ expressions and body language were so interesting.

Carlos Correa always seemed to study the crowd as he approached the dugout. But my favorite Correa moment (other than his two hits) was how he greeted Willi Castro after that amazing sliding catch along the right field foul line to end the Cubs’ sixth inning. What a moment between two teammates that was.

[Western SD Fan]

1 hour ago, stringer bell said:

When someone asked what Woods Richardson has to do to work deeper in games, my tongue-in-cheek reply was "score more runs". but I meant it. If the score was 4 or 5 to 0, the manager indicated he would stick with his starter. IIRC, SWR has worked deeper in two games where he was behind, but Rocco wants to make sure when the starter pitches to a lead that the ball gets to the bullpen with a lead.

You're obviously right in that they need to score runs and there's always a commenter on here that says that you need to win the games in front of you.  I made the argument earlier that SWR has faced some good lineups since coming back from AAA and giving him a chance to win is always important.  That doesn't mean that there won't be a price to pay.  Hypothetically, let's assume we get one of Ober or Matthews back before the end of July and we are able to rally to be a .500 team at the trade deadline.  I assume that puts us within a couple of games of the wild card and we do nothing at the deadline.  I don't see either Ober or Matthews going more than 5 innings as they build back up so now you have an entire rotation that can only go 5 innings, apologies to Joe Ryan.  There's a 10-game stretch in August that will likely kill the bullpen (3 v KC, 3 @ NYY, 4 v DET).  Our poor planning of not allowing these pitchers to go more than 5 innings will come back to haunt us when the bullpen is taxed and we are depending on Wentz to get critical outs or allowing SWR or another pitcher to try to get another inning in a critical situation when they haven't been expected to all season.

[Vanimal46]

29 minutes ago, Melissa said:

I was at Target Field last night and surrounded by Cubs fans. Splurged for this one and sat right behind the Twins dugout.

SWR being pulled after five was both disappointing and understandable. Giving up walks is I think his biggest issue.

Cubs fans were pretty hopeful in the top of the 8th when Jax let the first two batters on, but then quieted down when the next three made outs.

But that bottom of the 8th was so electric! I haven’t had so much fun at a Twins game all year! 

I’ve been doing some investigating and I think you are my long lost aunt! Why don’t we catch up at the game tonight in these same exact seats? Your treat! 

[MMMordabito]

40 minutes ago, Melissa said:

I was at Target Field last night and surrounded by Cubs fans. Splurged for this one and sat right behind the Twins dugout.

SWR being pulled after five was both disappointing and understandable. Giving up walks is I think his biggest issue.

Cubs fans were pretty hopeful in the top of the 8th when Jax let the first two batters on, but then quieted down when the next three made outs.

But that bottom of the 8th was so electric! I haven’t had so much fun at a Twins game all year! 

I was at the game with a whole row of Cubs fans in front of me as well.  I have to say they were great fans and stayed and cheered for their team even after the six run explosion in the 8th.  They cheered loudly for Justin "He's Still Got It" Turner when he hit his token bomb off Wentz.  Going again on Thursday and hoping for another 30,000+ crowd and charged atmosphere.

[chpettit19]

19 minutes ago, Western SD Fan said:

You're obviously right in that they need to score runs and there's always a commenter on here that says that you need to win the games in front of you.  I made the argument earlier that SWR has faced some good lineups since coming back from AAA and giving him a chance to win is always important.  That doesn't mean that there won't be a price to pay.  Hypothetically, let's assume we get one of Ober or Matthews back before the end of July and we are able to rally to be a .500 team at the trade deadline.  I assume that puts us within a couple of games of the wild card and we do nothing at the deadline.  I don't see either Ober or Matthews going more than 5 innings as they build back up so now you have an entire rotation that can only go 5 innings, apologies to Joe Ryan.  There's a 10-game stretch in August that will likely kill the bullpen (3 v KC, 3 @ NYY, 4 v DET).  Our poor planning of not allowing these pitchers to go more than 5 innings will come back to haunt us when the bullpen is taxed and we are depending on Wentz to get critical outs or allowing SWR or another pitcher to try to get another inning in a critical situation when they haven't been expected to all season.

This is a false narrative. You apologize to Joe Ryan in there already, but he disproves your point from the start. He's gone more than 5 innings in 11 starts already this year, and each of his last 5. Festa has gone more than 5 in his last 2 and 3 of his last 5. The Twins haven't limited Ober in years and weren't limiting him when he was actively injured so why would we assume they're going to limit him when he comes back? SWR going deeper depends on the offense giving him cushion. So, we can probably assume he won't be going deeper because they don't tend to do that. And I agree Zebby will likely be limited.

But that's 3 out of 5 who I see plenty of reason to believe they'll be allowed to go longer than 5. Since that's what they've been doing. 

[LambchoP]

It's way past time to stop pulling him after 5 innings despite performing well or pitch count. How can he ever improve his stats third time through the lineup if he never has the chance? This has to be horrible for his confidence. Why are guys like Festa and Mathews allowed to go deeper but not SWR? If he's going to be one of our SP long term, it's time to let him pitch. Also, can we get rid of Wentz yet? I don't think I've seen him have a clean or scoreless inning since we got him. There HAS to be a better option somewhere in this organization. If not, that tells you our pitching pipeline is in serious trouble. Too bad we dumped Henriquez, the kid has looked amazing with MIA this year. We blew that one for sure....

[TheLeviathan]

The Twins were up 2-0 and SWR was sent to the minors for being terrible earlier in the season.  Fans have seen that this offense goes through droughts of incredible ineptitude....

And some of you are calling for SWR to go back out in the 6th against a first place team, with a good lineup, and a small lead?

The *$^& are you people on?  Seriously.  Like, is your intent to completely undermine your own credibility here?  Now, I carve out an exemption for you rational folks that don't always dogpile Rocco, it's ok to have a nuanced opinion.  But 90% of you complaining would've been tossing chairs if SWR had gone out and given up a bloop and a blast the next inning and blamed Rocco for that too.

[Vanimal46]

38 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

The Twins were up 2-0 and SWR was sent to the minors for being terrible earlier in the season.  Fans have seen that this offense goes through droughts of incredible ineptitude....

And some of you are calling for SWR to go back out in the 6th against a first place team, with a good lineup, and a small lead?

The *$^& are you people on?  Seriously.  Like, is your intent to completely undermine your own credibility here?  Now, I carve out an exemption for you rational folks that don't always dogpile Rocco, it's ok to have a nuanced opinion.  But 90% of you complaining would've been tossing chairs if SWR had gone out and given up a bloop and a blast the next inning and blamed Rocco for that too.

In 4 of his last 5 starts he’s given up 1 or 0 ER. He’s figured something out against these good lineups. Maybe we have another SP who can handle more innings, but we won’t know until he gets the opportunity. If SWR was at 80+ pitches after 5, then let’s pull him from the game. Except in recent starts he’s been efficient in that metric too. 

[Mike Sixel]

40 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

The Twins were up 2-0 and SWR was sent to the minors for being terrible earlier in the season.  Fans have seen that this offense goes through droughts of incredible ineptitude....

And some of you are calling for SWR to go back out in the 6th against a first place team, with a good lineup, and a small lead?

The *$^& are you people on?  Seriously.  Like, is your intent to completely undermine your own credibility here?  Now, I carve out an exemption for you rational folks that don't always dogpile Rocco, it's ok to have a nuanced opinion.  But 90% of you complaining would've been tossing chairs if SWR had gone out and given up a bloop and a blast the next inning and blamed Rocco for that too.

My reasoning is that the season is over, and they need to learn.... It may have been a rational decision, but I didn't like it. I understand they can't yet manage like the season is over.....

[Maybe Next Year]

Have fun trying to sign any free agent starting pitchers this off-season!

SWR throws 5 innings of shutout baseball, only 2 hits and just 64 pitches and he gets pulled. This isn't the first time this has happened to him. This has happened to each of our starting pitchers as well. What a slap in the face! It's understandable why Sonny Gray couldn't stand Baldelli. 

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, Maybe Next Year said:

Have fun trying to sign any free agent starting pitchers this off-season!

SWR throws 5 innings of shutout baseball, only 2 hits and just 64 pitches and he gets pulled. This isn't the first time this has happened to him. This has happened to each of our starting pitchers as well. What a slap in the face! It's understandable why Sonny Gray couldn't stand Baldelli. 

Gray was never more successful. He pitched more innings than he had. He should thank Rocco every day. 

When the Twins have good pitchers, they let them pitch. They've been around league average in starter innings nearly every year recently. My issue with yesterday was they'll never know what swr can do if they didn't let him try. But, in context, the decision likely makes sense. 

[Rod Carews Birthday]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

This is a false narrative. You apologize to Joe Ryan in there already, but he disproves your point from the start. He's gone more than 5 innings in 11 starts already this year, and each of his last 5. Festa has gone more than 5 in his last 2 and 3 of his last 5. The Twins haven't limited Ober in years and weren't limiting him when he was actively injured so why would we assume they're going to limit him when he comes back? SWR going deeper depends on the offense giving him cushion. So, we can probably assume he won't be going deeper because they don't tend to do that. And I agree Zebby will likely be limited.

But that's 3 out of 5 who I see plenty of reason to believe they'll be allowed to go longer than 5. Since that's what they've been doing. 

It’s the narrative that refuses to die!

[TheLeviathan]

29 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

In 4 of his last 5 starts he’s given up 1 or 0 ER. He’s figured something out against these good lineups. Maybe we have another SP who can handle more innings, but we won’t know until he gets the opportunity. If SWR was at 80+ pitches after 5, then let’s pull him from the game. Except in recent starts he’s been efficient in that metric too. 

I think it's perfectly fine for them to still be in the business of developing confidence.  Stretching him out, making sure he's still pitching in September.

This speaks to @Mike Sixel's point, but Rocco is managing to win still.  And this was the winning move against an elite lineup of a first place team.  Hopefully, (fingers crossed) August and September will be more about development for the future after we sell.  

For now....that was the right move to win the game. 

[bjorks]

9 hours ago, knothole61 said:

It's hard to disagree with the esteemed "thumbs up" crew on this post, but the telecast booth proceedings drove me to distraction and I had to turn the sound down after the second inning or so. It's probably some failing of mine, but I need to concentrate on the action on the field; and no, the split-screen doesn't do it for me. I have nothing against any of those (a multitude!) in the booth and I think that Pablo is a very bright and articulate man, but if I really want to see how he grips a changeup I'll head to YouTube later and see what I can find, not during the game itself. Last night was essentially an in-game dugout interview that lasted for hours.

I hope that they never do this again, but I have a feeling that such things, along with on-field interviews during play (and whatever drone camera horrors they may come up with in the future to make the game more "enjoyable") are the wave of the future.    

So it goes...

 

It's a fair point and I agree it's 100% on how you/me/we enjoy consuming the game. 

SIDENOTE: Baseball is my favorite sport and living on the WC with the nice start/end times I've been able to watch 135+ games a year for the past 15 years or so. BUT, my ADHD brain can only handle so much on field "action". I have to hear the game moreso than see it (thanks Vin Skully and AM WCCO).

I have the games on as background as much as anything, which is why I focus more on the dialog than on field play. I LOVE (as much as you probably love the gameplay) hearing the game and just the different types of topics and discussions are most important to me. I don't want to see a baseball coach or someone from Driveline or Paul Skenes in an LSU uniform showing me how they through a Splinker. 

I paid attention when Lopez is calling pitches before they happened and then Plouffe starts making calls. JM has gotten a ton better in the booth from when he started and I think GP could do it full time if he really wanted to. 

[Aggies7]

2 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

The Twins were up 2-0 and SWR was sent to the minors for being terrible earlier in the season.  Fans have seen that this offense goes through droughts of incredible ineptitude....

And some of you are calling for SWR to go back out in the 6th against a first place team, with a good lineup, and a small lead?

The *$^& are you people on?  Seriously.  Like, is your intent to completely undermine your own credibility here?  Now, I carve out an exemption for you rational folks that don't always dogpile Rocco, it's ok to have a nuanced opinion.  But 90% of you complaining would've been tossing chairs if SWR had gone out and given up a bloop and a blast the next inning and blamed Rocco for that too.

I really don’t think 90% of people would have thrown a fit had he stayed in and coughed up the lead. It’s not like our bullpen is some juggernaut that isn’t squarely in the bottom third or half of most statistical categories.

As far as SWR being sent down to the minors, how soon we forget the early season struggles of Jax. And Duran at times too. And I reiterate, SWRs numbers do not fall off the cliff in the hallowed third time through the order.

You can’t manage every single game like it’s the postseason. Nobody does that. It’s a Tuesday night in July and it’s a long season. Some posters defend the twins pitching philosophies as if the organization hasn’t been solidly mediocre for years now. You even had Pablo saying it sucks to get pulled while live on air. Imagine what they say in private.

[TheLeviathan]

14 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I really don’t think 90% of people would have thrown a fit had he stayed in and coughed up the lead.

Welcome to TwinsDaily.  I see you're new here.....

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, TheLeviathan said:

Welcome to TwinsDaily.  I see you're new here.....

Not at all I’m in most every game thread and it’s rare to see anyone whine about a starter being left in too long. Maybe because it rarely happens. Bottom half in innings per start.

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Welcome to TwinsDaily.  I see you're new here.....

I mean 90 percent are mad and they won.....

[TheLeviathan]

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Not at all I’m in most every game thread and it’s rare to see anyone whine about a starter being left in too long. Maybe because it rarely happens. Bottom half in innings per start.

There is really nothing to say to something so outlandishly untrue.  The complaints about management decisions are about all decisions, at all times, no matter what.  It is literally nonsense.  The definition of irrational.

So yes, I assume that in this case the trend will continue.

[TheLeviathan]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

I mean 90 percent are mad and they won.....

It's honestly a miracle we're sub 99%.  Take your dubs man.

[Doctor Gast]

6 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

He’d pitched in 43 career games when this screen shot was pulled last night. I think you are misreading the format. The 41 games in the first line and the 41 in the second line are the same games. And then in 33 of those games he’s at least started through the lineup a third time and one time got to a fourth time.

(Which also refutes the theory that Rocco “never lets SWR face a batter the third time,” given it’s happened more than 80 percent of the time. I assume that his two relief appearances were as a bulk pitcher after an opener, since he got to the third time through in both of those as well.)

Thank you

[Aggies7]

8 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

There is really nothing to say to something so outlandishly untrue.  The complaints about management decisions are about all decisions, at all times, no matter what.  It is literally nonsense.  The definition of irrational.

So yes, I assume that in this case the trend will continue.

Ok post examples of it happening then. The only thing I’ve ever seen to even come close to what you’re claiming is questioning why a guy doing poorly is allowed to stay in and someone doing well gets pulled, like last night. Which is absolutely a fair gripe.

[Larry Janisewski]

12 hours ago, Parfigliano said:

The constant 5th inning and done is stunting SWR growth and career prospects.  His agent surely is telling him this.

While I would also like to see pitchers go deeper into games this isn't only a Twins issue. The last time I saw the stat, across all of the majors starters the average is 5 2/3 innings.

[TheLeviathan]

7 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Ok post examples of it happening then. The only thing I’ve ever seen to even come close to what you’re claiming is questioning why a guy doing poorly is allowed to stay in and someone doing well gets pulled, like last night. Which is absolutely a fair gripe.

Patzy was complaining about Adams having too long of a leash just a few days ago.  But I'm not going to spend my time going through the toxic hellhole of archived game threads to prove this wrong.  You see what you want to see.

Which is why having a rational conversation about an irrational behavior is not worth my time.

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Patzy was complaining about Adams having too long of a leash just a few days ago.  But I'm not going to spend my time going through the toxic hellhole of archived game threads to prove this wrong.  You see what you want to see.

Which is why having a rational conversation about an irrational behavior is not worth my time.

It’s ok I knew you couldn’t anyway. Fan on.

[TheLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

It’s ok I knew you couldn’t anyway. Fan on.

I absolutely could if I wanted to waste my time pouring over them.  I'm not going to.  I found one from a few days ago just off memory.  

As evidenced in this thread, people who want to hate on Rocco's decisions do it regardless of evidence or reality.  There are some that are welcome to be upset with yesterday's decision!  There are rational folks who are willing to give credit when due.  To agree with decisions even when they don't work out.

This is the 10%.  The 90% are irrational, toxic whiners.  Whether you choose to see those arguments or not is a you problem.  One I'm not going to exhaustively research to fix.  It wouldn't matter if I did.

[Doctor Gast]

5 hours ago, Linus said:

It was enjoyable to watch some athletic outfielders who can run and play defense. The Twins need an injection of that in my opinion meaning I would move on from Larnach or Wallner (maybe both) for next year. 

I've been saying this for a while that the Twins need a new identity.

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

I mean 90 percent are mad and they won.....

Heh.

Ironic.