Is Harrison Bader This Year’s Byron Buxton Insurance?

[olerud]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

Exciting, young talent Keirsey was born May 13, 1997. He will be 28 next season.

Over the hill, decrepit, aging veteran Bader was born June 3, 1994.

Keirsey is younger, but not enough to matter. Both players should be considered finished products.

I disagree, know he's not a ton younger but he's been in our system and he's dealt  with his share of setbacks but I think he can be substantially better than bader! But they always go with vets.

[chpettit19]

3 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

I do think it matters that last year was the first where he was primarily an outfielder with 80 starts across AAA and the majors. I would guess it was the first year the bulk of his time in preparation and training was in the outfield. I think that makes a difference. I would not be signing a decline phase short side platoon veteran with Martin, Keirsey and Helman in the organization with options.

I'm certainly not suggesting he's a finished product and there's no room for growth. And I am also no fan of the short-side platoon vets. They're my least favorite thing about this front office. I hate them. So sick of them. Never want another one on the roster. I really hope they don't turn Martin into one even if I don't think he has a very high ceiling. Just like I hope they don't turn Wallner, Emma, Jenkins, et al into platoon bats. The platooning drives me nuts. I'm just saying that we probably shouldn't expect too significant of an increase in his defensive skills. I hope we see it, but probably shouldn't expect it. 

[TwinsDr2021]

18 minutes ago, olerud said:

I disagree, know he's not a ton younger but he's been in our system and he's dealt  with his share of setbacks but I think he can be substantially better than bader! But they always go with vets.

I can remember when people were wanting Chris Williams to be on the Twins

[KirbyDome89]

2 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

I do think it matters that last year was the first where he was primarily an outfielder with 80 starts across AAA and the majors. I would guess it was the first year the bulk of his time in preparation and training was in the outfield. I think that makes a difference. I would not be signing a decline phase short side platoon veteran with Martin, Keirsey and Helman in the organization with options.

I'm too lazy to check, but was he as brutal previous seasons in the OF? The fact that he was dedicating the bulk of his prep to OF work and still looked that brutal seems to be more of an indictment given the number of OF innings already under his belt. 

[sampleSizeOfOne]

My one thought is other teams likely value top up the middle fielding. He probably can get more playing time somewhere else.

But we can still dream.

[Doctor Gast]

Going to the FA well, will mean trading a needed player like Castro or maybe Correa. I'd rather keep our more valuable players & forego FAs. To take Buxton away from CF to put him at DH would be an absolute waste & self-defeating. Martin only played CF because Margot wasn't the player that he was hyped to be. I was against acquiring Margot & I'm against getting any outside player when we have a very capable Keirsey who has proved himself at AAA the last 2yrs. We lost 1 yr. of establishing Keirsey at the MLB, that was an absolute shame. The short time that Keirsey spent in MLB his value shot up. The only sensible thing to do is to commit to Keirsey & let him show us what he can do in the very short time he has. For at least out of respect to one of our players that put in that necessary effort in our system. Another thing, lets say we sign a FA & put him on the active roster & he absolutely bombs like Margot. No matter how bad that player is he'll remain getting playing time & he'll block Emma when he's ready to come up.

Last year we kept on getting these stupid (creative) suggestions through out the offseason. I figured that it was only for discussion purposes. They aren't that stupid to ever do such crazy things to make us worse! To my surprise they followed through on those suggestions. And where did that get us? A 4th place AL Central Division finish. I'm not underestimating how creative they can get. To tell you the truth I'm sick tired of all this creativity. Let's try something new, like common sense.

[rv78]

Some day, we can only hope, the Twins will once again have a full-time centerfielder, and this topic won't be discussed every year.

[Whitey333]

First of all it seems to me the real issue is Buxton.  Not his backup.  This now 10 year saga of waiting fir Buxton to become a full time contributor is ridiculous.  It's a shame we have to waste an extra roster spot to be Byron's backup.  We should have moved on from him years ago.  As far as a comparison to him and Hunter:  there us no comparison.  Hunter was by far the better player.  It's not even close.  It's long past time to dump Buxton.

[TopGunn#22]

Until COST is no longer THE primary concern with assembling a ballclub, I think Bader just doesn't fit into our current reality.  He made $10 million last year.  His offensive stats were not so horrible that he'd be desperate to take $4 million from the Twins.

He's a great CF.  There is no question of that.  In fact, he's so good that against LH pitching, I could almost see the Twins putting Bader in CF and start experimenting with Buxton in LF to see how that looks with the expectation that E-Rod and/or Walker Jenkins begins their career in CF.  

At this point, you couldn't count on Keirsey giving the Twins the offense that Bader would, but the defensive ability Keirsey would bring might come somewhat close, at a price of $760,000.  Bader seems like the kind of guy a big market team would pay $8-$10 million for if they needed a RH platoon option for CF along with late game defense.   

[TopGunn#22]

I just think the better option is giving Keirsey a long look to see what we have.  Can the kid hit in the big leagues?  We won't ever know if we sign a middling vet and never give him a chance.  The positive, even if Keirsey flops, is that there is not a Margot-esque veteran blocking or complicating things when E-Rod is ready to go. 

Over these last 2 seasons, I think Keirsey deserves a chance to show what he can do.  The guy had an injury and then Covid wiped out an entire minor league season.  I think what he's done these last 2 seasons have earned him the opportunity.   Who knows? he may just prove valuable enough that when E-Rod is ready someone like Larnach could be an interesting trade piece.  

[KBJ1]

The Twins need Rodriguez to be a star in LF, a 1B mitt for Larnach and Buxton fully healthy for 120 games.

Then the in house backups, along with Castro will be fine.

Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking.......

[Otaknam]

On 12/18/2024 at 7:45 AM, tony&rodney said:

Will Bader sign for less than $4 million? If not, he is not really an option .... unless Falvey gets the go ahead to spend more money ($140M). As it is Keirsey Jr. can play centerfield. An even better option is to allow the new left fielder, Emmanuel Rodriguez, to slide over to centerfield when Buck needs a day off. Emmanuel does not discriminate when it comes to hitting LH pitching either.

I think you’re right on Bader contract wise. It would be great if Erod  forced their hand and he made the team out of spring training. But while he isn’t a free swinger, he still bats left handed and they need a right handed bat in the outfield. The same with Kiersey, who I think will get a chance before EROD. Kiersey has earned the chance and has excellent speed and defense. And he would make the major league minimum . For a team not planning to compete, saving money will drive these decisions. 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Otaknam said:

It would be great if Erod  forced their hand and he made the team out of spring training. But while he isn’t a free swinger, he still bats left handed

EmRod does not have splits LH/RH, he just sees ball. Really. Perhaps a difference will manifest itself at the major league level, but Emmanuel does not have a problem facing left-handed pitchers. 

The Twins have twisted themselves into knots playing the platoon game too often, and I am not opposed to platooning when it is called for in specific circumstances.

[Greglw3]

On 12/18/2024 at 9:13 AM, DJL44 said:

Unlikely he does it as well as Bader.

Counter that, I believe Keirsey, Jr. can do it as well or better and hit and steal better too.

[Greglw3]

On 12/18/2024 at 4:40 PM, Doctor Gast said:

Going to the FA well, will mean trading a needed player like Castro or maybe Correa. I'd rather keep our more valuable players & forego FAs. To take Buxton away from CF to put him at DH would be an absolute waste & self-defeating. Martin only played CF because Margot wasn't the player that he was hyped to be. I was against acquiring Margot & I'm against getting any outside player when we have a very capable Keirsey who has proved himself at AAA the last 2yrs. We lost 1 yr. of establishing Keirsey at the MLB, that was an absolute shame. The short time that Keirsey spent in MLB his value shot up. The only sensible thing to do is to commit to Keirsey & let him show us what he can do in the very short time he has. For at least out of respect to one of our players that put in that necessary effort in our system. Another thing, lets say we sign a FA & put him on the active roster & he absolutely bombs like Margot. No matter how bad that player is he'll remain getting playing time & he'll block Emma when he's ready to come up.

Last year we kept on getting these stupid (creative) suggestions through out the offseason. I figured that it was only for discussion purposes. They aren't that stupid to ever do such crazy things to make us worse! To my surprise they followed through on those suggestions. And where did that get us? A 4th place AL Central Division finish. I'm not underestimating how creative they can get. To tell you the truth I'm sick tired of all this creativity. Let's try something new, like common sense.

I agree with your whole premise and feel that it’s time to hand that job over to Keirsey when Buxton doesn’t play CF and have DKJ play some left and right also. He’s absolutely mastered the AAA level and a stunning sliding catch and a HR in very limited playing time shows he can do it in MLB too. Give Keirsey, Jr. 500 AB!!! He hits lefties also!

[Greglw3]

On 12/19/2024 at 11:33 AM, KBJ1 said:

The Twins need Rodriguez to be a star in LF, a 1B mitt for Larnach and Buxton fully healthy for 120 games.

Then the in house backups, along with Castro will be fine.

Sounds like a lot of wishful thinking.......

It is! Derek Falvey engages in it every year.

For the life of me, I can’t figure out how he went out and got about 90 HR in Cron, Schoop and Cruz, won 101 games, and then turned into one of the quintessential below average and passive gm/POBO’s I’ve ever seen.

My preference would be sign Profar for LF, Keirsey/Buxton for CF and Keirsey Wallner (Keirsey hits lefties) for RF. I’d sign .360 OBP Jesse Winker to DH and Larnach as depth or a trade. Sign .333 hitting Iglesias as Correa’s backup.

Hurry along J Ishbia!!!! We should be going aggressively after Sasaki and I would move Jax to the rotation, 7 innings a start or more and he’d be #2 behind Sasaki (who may want to play for a small to mid-market team due to difficulties he had in Japan).

[DJL44]

3 hours ago, Greglw3 said:

Counter that, I believe Keirsey, Jr. can do it as well or better and hit and steal better too.

That would be something since he never has thus far.

[tony&rodney]

I'm a little surprised to get a thumbs down on suggesting a Spring Training invite for these players if they are unable to sign contracts. Seems like a gamble worth taking to give them a shot.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

I'm a little surprised to get a thumbs down on suggesting a Spring Training invite for these players if they are unable to sign contracts. Seems like a gamble worth taking to give them a shot.

Waiting around for solid players to be left without a chair at the end of the offseason musical chairs is a really bad plan.

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

Waiting around for solid players to be left without a chair at the end of the offseason musical chairs is a really bad plan.

Have we seen this before or not?

[DJL44]

9 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Have we seen this before or not?

Yes, and they end up with guys like Joey Gallo - a redundant LH bat who didn't fit the roster at all. 

[Greglw3]

19 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Waiting around for solid players to be left without a chair at the end of the offseason musical chairs is a really bad plan.

Agree with that strongly re musical chairs. Agree to disagree on Keirsey Jr. We will probably find out soon enough.

[Greglw3]

9 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Yes, and they end up with guys like Joey Gallo - a redundant LH bat who didn't fit the roster at all. 

Worst. Signing. Ever.

[ewen21]

On 12/18/2024 at 1:11 PM, bean5302 said:

I think that's a pretty extreme take. I don't think Buxton is a negative, but I certainly wouldn't have given him that 7 year deal because I don't think any team in baseball would have given Buxton more than 3 years in free agency.  Hunter was not as good as Buxton when they were both healthy and on the field. It's just Buxton is a half a year player.

Sorry to disagree, but I do not think it is an extreme take.  The Twins have basically given Buxton his own set of rules and that is destructive to an organization.  If Buxton were like on a Derek Jeter level I might understand.  Jeter was a player who earned the right to have "special treatment" but in the case of Buxton it was bestowed upon him.  Buxton gets way too much consideration and is treated as though he is the Hope Diamond.  It is actually extreme to have a backup plan for a player who is supposed to be in the prime of his career.

I also disagree with you on your Buxton/Hunter comparison.  Give me Torii Hunter in CF over Buxton every day and twice on Sunday.  This "when healthy" stuff doesn't cut it.  THere are 162 games on the schedule and if you can't even play in 100 of those you become a problem.

 

Byron Buxton is a problem

[arby58]

On 12/18/2024 at 8:45 AM, tony&rodney said:

Will Bader sign for less than $4 million? If not, he is not really an option .... unless Falvey gets the go ahead to spend more money ($140M). As it is Keirsey Jr. can play centerfield. An even better option is to allow the new left fielder, Emmanuel Rodriguez, to slide over to centerfield when Buck needs a day off. Emmanuel does not discriminate when it comes to hitting LH pitching either.

Emma has an injury record that nearly rivals Buxton.

[arby58]

On 12/23/2024 at 9:25 AM, ewen21 said:

Byron Buxton is a problem

Even in just 102 games last year, Buxton had a WAR of 3.6. The Twins could only hope to have more 'problems' who can put up that WAR in 102 games.

[arby58]

On 12/22/2024 at 4:51 PM, Greglw3 said:

Worst. Signing. Ever.

Gallo, for all his faults, was second on the team in HRs, had an OPS+ of 100, and a WAR of 0.5. Hard to call that the worst signing ever. Margot was much worse in about the same number of at bats, a -0.9 WAR, and an OPS of 76. Not. Even. Close.

[ewen21]

10 hours ago, arby58 said:

Even in just 102 games last year, Buxton had a WAR of 3.6. The Twins could only hope to have more 'problems' who can put up that WAR in 102 games.

His WAR literally means nothing to me.  If WAR is what you want to use then fine:

Hunter had 26.5 WAR from his age 25 season to his age 30 season

Buxton had 18 WAR from his age 25 season to his age 30 season.

 

YOu still want to say Buxton is better?  No, he is not even in his wildest dreams.

 

The PROBLEM Buxton presents is that he's given special treatment, special considerations and rules and tons of leeway.  You cannot treat a player this way not create accountability issues across the board.  If he were a first ballot HOFer who is a team leader that polices himself then you can,