"Nothing Rocco could do,.."

[NotAboutWinning]

9 hours ago, NYCTK said:

Rocco is risk averse, as is the Twins way. It's also a great way to lose. 

I hadn't viewed Rocco's actions through this lens. His tendency to cling to failing strategies and unflinching belief in reversion to the mean can also be seen as risk-averse behaviors. In which case, he will not change until the pain of standing pat overwhelms the unknowns of taking a risk 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

17 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

So now we're blaming Terry Francona?

That's a choice.

Francona had been there a while. He was admittedly tired. Managers have a shelf life. That's not blaming him. 

What would be the reason for their turnaround? What changed? Other than the manager...or, maybe Clase really did find some undetectable PHDs.

[Brock Beauchamp]

This thread is such a perfect encapsulation of why it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion about Rocco Baldelli.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Francona had been there a while. He was admittedly tired. Managers have a shelf life. That's not blaming him. 

What would be the reason for their turnaround? What changed? Other than the manager...or, maybe Clase really did find some undetectable PHDs.

You're looking for an easy answer and somehow landed on the manager. The reason the Guardians are good again is because they're hitting again, just as they did in 2022, when they also won 90+ games. Teams have down years all the time.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

13 hours ago, NYCTK said:

There was no true external factor outside of the team's control. 

The offense sucked? Whose job is it to mix things up to try to jump start it? The bullpen stuttered? Who controls the bullpen? SWR hit a wall? Who puts him on the bump? 

Sorry, but this team sucked and it comes back to leadership. It wasn't bad luck. It was a bad team. 

Is ownership external to Rocco and the players? I would think it is, and would be one of many factors in this team’s success.

Leadership doesn’t add two relievers and a starter at the trade deadline. 

Rocco absolutely deserves criticism for many things, but running out of horses isn’t one of them.

[ewen21]

On 9/26/2024 at 10:51 PM, USAFChief said:

IMO this season turned as Rocco watched Alcala turn a 4-0 lead into a 4-5 deficit on an August Sunday afternoon. 

I've been told there was nothing the manager could do about that...it all just happened too fast. 

I call BS. BS then, still BS today.

Witness: in tonight's game, Carlos Correa leads off the 6th with a HR. Miami's manager activities the pen. Has the pitching coach amble out and stall at the mound. Ambles back to the dugout. The pen WAS NOT active until the HR, as called out by Provus.

Larnach is the next Twins hitter. On the second pitch, he gets an infield single. 

Miami manager waits the extra 20 seconds between hitters...and then ambles out to make a pitching change. 

It took a total of 2 pitches to activate the pen, and get a relief pitcher in the game. 

Two. Pitches. And a little legal stalling.

Now tell me again how Baldelli sat through 7 hitters, 5 runs, including 2 HRs, a 3 minute wait while they searched for Wallner's glove, and DIDNT HAVE TIME to make a change anywhere in there.

 

 

Rocco should be fired, but he is FAR from being THE REASON for this.

 

 

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This thread is such a perfect encapsulation of why it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion about Rocco Baldelli.

Indeed.

"Rocco can't be blamed for blowing that lead. There was no chance to remove Alcala. Happened too fast"

"Well that's not true. 7 hitters. 5 runs. 2 HRs. A delay looking for Wallner's glove. "

"Yes it is true. Because I said so. And furthermore, you're a Neanderthal worthy of being mocked."

"Here's an example of a manager activating his pen and making a change IN TWO PITCHES."

"It wasn't Rocco’s fault and furthermore you're an ******* for pointing this out." 

.

Now ban me. It's what you do.

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Indeed.

"Rocco can't be blamed for blowing that lead. There was no chance to remove Alcala. Happened too fast"

"Well that's not true. 7 hitters. 5 runs. 2 HRs. A delay looking for Wallner's glove. "

"Yes it is true. Because I said so. And furthermore, you're a Neanderthal worthy of being mocked."

"Here's an example of a manager activating his pen and making a change IN TWO PITCHES."

"It wasn't Rocco’s fault and furthermore you're an ******* for pointing this out." 

.

Now ban me. It's what you do.

I was talking more about the sheer idiocy of suggesting Sands could be a starter but you go ahead and play victim, I know you wear it well. 

[Jocko87]

12 hours ago, USAFChief said:

That was NOT the original point.

No sir, it was not. And furthermore, you know it.

That's what I get for not checking the box score. I remembered it was not a new pitcher in that inning and assumed starter in the 6th. Mea culpa.

It's still a similar point. Reliever starting second inning should have a manager on high alert. Higher than it would be for a guys first pitch.

Every situation different.

[Tlaker]

5 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This thread is such a perfect encapsulation of why it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion about Rocco Baldelli.

I disagree…..this thread is a perfect encapsulation of a reasonable discussion about Rocco Baldelli’s strengths and weaknesses.  Varying opinions are formed about his traits in managing a ballgame………and we all know what they say about opinions.

My two cents…..  I think the team needs new leadership from ownership on down, to bring fresh air into the stale stench that surrounds it presently.

A change in ownership will not happen, so I would welcome new FO and on field management asap….. if that doesn’t happen I don’t expect anything different next season.

 

[TheLeviathan]

8 minutes ago, Tlaker said:

I disagree…..this thread is a perfect encapsulation of a reasonable discussion about Rocco Baldelli’s strengths and weaknesses.

 

I think you read a different thread.  I think another poster made my point nicely for me.

[glunn]

Moderator note -- there are some deep disagreements in this thread.  That's OK under the TD posting policy.

On the other hand, bickering and personal attacks are forbidden.  Please let's all keep that in mind.

 

[Linus]

I think most managerial decisions are close to coin flips - anywhere from 50-50 to 60-40. Even if you make the “correct “ decision and are on the right side of the odds tails is going to come up plenty. Additionally there is never perfect information. I don’t like when he yanks a pitcher that is doing well and then the next night the starter gets lit up in the fifth. As far as leadership goes we have no idea. TV sound bites and dugout shots don’t indicate anything about the way he interacts with his players which mostly happens behind closed doors. I can take him or leave him because he is doing what the FO wants and the next guy is going to do the same stuff. The part that he should be roundly criticized is that his teams make lots of basic mistakes and nothing seems to be done about it. At some point that is on him. 

[insagt1]

in pro sports sometimes players just stop 'hearing' their coach or manager. The words and the music don't resonate. When that happens, you need to make a change. As they say, you can't change the wind (all 26 players) but you can change the set of the sail (the manager) Sometimes a new voice is not only needed, but quietly welcomed.

Seems to me the Twins need to hear a new voice and a new 'song'.  And quite often when a manager gets canned, its really on the players who just didn't perform. And the guy in charge takes the hit. They know that the day they sign on.

2024 will be remembered for a colossal flop in the 2nd half. Maybe even a choke. By the final week, none of the players had any passion left to win games. Maybe Correa; possibly Buxton but overall it was just going thru the motions.

Anyone catch the Yankee box score today? Judge: 0-5 with 5 k's!! Was that a misprint. Against the Pirates? Wow. I'll bet the O's are meeting with them to find out the secret sauce to getting Judge out!

[Jocko87]

I've had a managerial philosophy that has worked wonders for me over the years.  

It's pretty simple.  We make a plan, we do our best to execute the plan, we live with the results and adjust future plans as needed.

The beauty of this method is that any plan, so long as mostly reasonable, will work if everyone is trying to execute to it.  

And also any plan, no matter how well crafted, fails if the group is not trying to execute to the plan. 

The time to get creative is during the plan creation. 

If the leader is credible that the plan will be adjusted to work better, the team will execute in action and provide feedback later.  In turn, the leader demands that everyone do their best to make the current plan works.

I can't speak to what Rocco did or didn't do outside knowing some of these details.  This is the story of the 2024 Minnesota Twins.

[notoriousgod71]

The "players need a new voice after so long" argument is true in my opinion but other than Kepler and Buxton who has really been here long enough to need a new voice?

 

That said, Rocco needs to go.

[Craig Arko]

Why I like CC4.

 

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, Craig Arko said:

Why I like CC4.

 

While we're at it, Bailey Ober:

 

We’re the ones performing out there and didn’t get the job done,” Ober said. “He’s putting out the lineups and we’re trying to do it. I feel like most of the blame should be on the players. But everyone’s entitled to their own opinion. If the players hear that, I don’t think anyone’s agreeing with that. It’s like, seriously, can’t you see what’s going on? He’s not the one at fault for this mishap that happened. We didn’t get it done.”

[Strombomb]

There's fault to be found throughout the organization. I really think @DocBauermade some great points.

IMO, ownership and whoever is in charge of TV contracts/budgets is chiefly to blame for starting the perfect storm. Thier ineptitude trickled down and infected the players in the end.

Here's my question: If the players are ultimately to blame, who let that happen? Who's "managing" them? Who's influencing their thoughts and actions? Who's motivating them? Who's theorizing 2-strike approach with them? Who's reinforcing fundamentals? We hear about C4's leadership and Farmer's team meetings. This is great but why is it necessary? What is lacking? Who's running this team? If it's not Rocco's job, who's is it? The bench coach? Hitting coach? I believe this young, talented  team was shorted the management they deserved. 

In-game management is another area of weakness I won't expound upon. 

[Aggies7]

How about some people give reasons why Rocco should be kept (moot as he’s already being brought back officially). Seems to me this thread is just people being defensive about their guy but not really giving much support to keeping him.

2 second half collapses in 3 seasons. A best of 3 series win after the playoffs expanded. That’s the high water mark. Not really good enough IYAM

[a-wan]

Don't forget to blame Baldelli for cutting millions from the pay roll too. Since he's the only problem with the team.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

23 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

Why I like CC4.

 

This...

Correa's importance to the Twins can't be understated. Hopefully the plantar fasciitis is a thing of the past and he can stay on the field in 2025. For as bad as the Twins were in certain areas, I don't have any doubts that if Correa didn't miss two months of the season, we're getting ready for playoff baseball. I also hope that some young guys (looking at Mr. Lewis) follow Correa's lead and do what it takes to improve.

[Aggies7]

2 hours ago, a-wan said:

Don't forget to blame Baldelli for cutting millions from the pay roll too. Since he's the only problem with the team.

Not nearly the only problem.

But even going with the premise that managers don’t win or lose many games….the twins missed the playoffs by 4 games and were within a game or two right up through the last week. Did our manager’s decision making lose 4 more games than it won? Right now without even looking it up, I can think of at least 3 games in the last month or so where his late game decisions cost a ballgame.

We’re talking about thin margins here. I will never believe that managers don’t win or lose games for their teams.

[Squirrel]

19 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Not nearly the only problem.

But even going with the premise that managers don’t win or lose many games….the twins missed the playoffs by 4 games and were within a game or two right up through the last week. Did our manager’s decision making lose 4 more games than it won? Right now without even looking it up, I can think of at least 3 games in the last month or so where his late game decisions cost a ballgame.

We’re talking about thin margins here. I will never believe that managers don’t win or lose games for their teams.

I don’t think anyone on these boards said managers never loses games. If Baldelli lost 4 games, how many did the players themselves cost us? It is never one answer, not in a team sport. I don’t think the manager is going to be a huge difference maker and he alone is not the reason we won’t be going to the playoffs. When you check what our numbers are with RISP, that is truly bad and I don’t lay that at the feet of the manager. If we made the playoffs, there’s always that possibility that the cards fall right and we win the World Series. Do you really think this team could win it all? With the players they have playing as they do? There is way more wrong here than Baldelli and I wouldn’t even say he’s reason one or two or even three on the list, imo. As long as our owners employ who they do, spend what they do, this is what we have. I said in another thread I wouldn’t be surprised if Baldelli is fired, and I wouldn’t expend tears over that, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if he remains, and I wouldn’t be all angsty about it, either. Maybe a new manager would provide a new spark. How long before that would wear off and we’d be right back here? For those of you with the extreme dislike of Baldelli, what manager would you like to see get the job? My guess is that anyone you’d name wouldn’t even be on the list. Obviously I don’t know for certain any of this would be the case, but I have little faith that it wouldn’t given what else ails the organization.

[Riverbrian]

59 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I don’t think anyone on these boards said managers never loses games. If Baldelli lost 4 games, how many did the players themselves cost us? It is never one answer, not in a team sport. I don’t think the manager is going to be a huge difference maker and he alone is not the reason we won’t be going to the playoffs. When you check what our numbers are with RISP, that is truly bad and I don’t lay that at the feet of the manager. If we made the playoffs, there’s always that possibility that the cards fall right and we win the World Series. Do you really think this team could win it all? With the players they have playing as they do? There is way more wrong here than Baldelli and I wouldn’t even say he’s reason one or two or even three on the list, imo. As long as our owners employ who they do, spend what they do, this is what we have. I said in another thread I wouldn’t be surprised if Baldelli is fired, and I wouldn’t expend tears over that, but I also wouldn’t be surprised if he remains, and I wouldn’t be all angsty about it, either. Maybe a new manager would provide a new spark. How long before that would wear off and we’d be right back here? For those of you with the extreme dislike of Baldelli, what manager would you like to see get the job? My guess is that anyone you’d name wouldn’t even be on the list. Obviously I don’t know for certain any of this would be the case, but I have little faith that it wouldn’t given what else ails the organization.

I'm with ya.

If people want to focus on how many he lost through manager decision?

My first question... How do you know that the game was lost through manager decision.

If you are able to confidently say that he lost games through manager decision? How many did he win through Manager decision. Must have been one or two? I don't know. 

How many did Quartaro Win through manager decision? How many did he lose? 

Same thing for Hinch? and the other 27 managers in the game. 

Anybody got a plus/minus on Rocco? or a plus/minus on the other 29 managers? 

I certainly don't. 

 

[USAFChief]

54 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

My first question... How do you know that the game was lost through manager decision.

I watched him make decisions that lost ballgames.

Go back and read the OP.

 

 

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

14 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I watched him make decisions that lost ballgames.

Go back and read the OP.

 

 

 

Hi Chief. I remember too — we were having this same conversation about Rocco already back in 2022, if not earlier. 

 

[USAFChief]

Just now, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Hi Chief. I remember too — we were having this same conversation about Rocco already back in 2022, if not earlier. 

 

Hi HBD. How's things?

 I made up my mind on Rocco last year. Doubt that's going to change.

For better or worse, I suspect the conversation isn't going to end with the announcement he's coming back. 

 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

45 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I watched him make decisions that lost ballgames.

Go back and read the OP.

 

 

 

I have my issues with the way the Twins handle some things. In-Game, Big Picture process stuff. 

I hear you but... there must have been some Rocco decisions that resulted in Wins.  

If Rocco would have made the move you or I wanted? Would the team have won the game? Still lost the game? 

Then the question that needs to be asked is.

What about the other managers across the league. Have they made decisions that resulted in losses? Is Rocco making more bad decisions than the others? I don't know the answer to that? 

And the next question... if another manager was in the same situation... Would they have made a different decision than Rocco did whoever that manager is.

Is there a Wins above replacement for manager? A plus/minus stat for Managers? 

How do we compare them to their peers? 

If you say that they Alcala was left in too long against the Rangers? OK... maybe but would another manager have handled it different in the same context? 

I don't know the answer to any of these questions.  

 

[Aggies7]

31 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

I have my issues with the way the Twins handle some things. In-Game, Big Picture process stuff. 

I hear you but... there must have been some Rocco decisions that resulted in Wins.  

If Rocco would have made the move you or I wanted? Would the team have won the game? Still lost the game? 

Then the question that needs to be asked is.

What about the other managers across the league. Have they made decisions that resulted in losses? Is Rocco making more bad decisions than the others? I don't know the answer to that? 

And the next question... if another manager was in the same situation... Would they have made a different decision than Rocco did whoever that manager is.

Is there a Wins above replacement for manager? A plus/minus stat for Managers? 

How do we compare them to their peers? 

If you say that they Alcala was left in too long against the Rangers? OK... maybe but would another manager have handled it different in the same context? 

I don't know the answer to any of these questions.  

 

Problem is that some posters have already decided that managers matter very little.
 

Yet, so far the only evidence supporting that claim is that they are paid less than players, even though it’s an apples to oranges comparison.

Supply and demand, less people can play centerfield at the major league level than can manage.

Players earn money for their teams. Of the teams with the top ten highest payrolls, 9 of them were in the top 10 for attendance. Not all even made the playoffs. 
 

Players careers are shorter than managers.

Also, how do we know that the manager has no freedom to make decisions? How could every decision be made in a pregame meeting? There are too many variables.

The way that one Kansas City game was handled was a 2 game swing. Pulled the starter and put in the closer in a situation he constantly performed poorly in. 

whats the harm in trying someone else? If they don’t really matter anyway?