Rocco

[Craig Arko]

3 minutes ago, gregens said:

No disrespect intended, but I think we confuse what happened (overall winning record) with what impact the manager had on the said outcome.  More specifcally, what does Rocco do or what has he done that makes him a good manager.   I'd say he is below average at line up construction, pinch hitting moves, bullpen management, and running a fundamentally sound team. 

So who would you suggest?

[Jocko87]

3 minutes ago, gregens said:

No disrespect intended, but I think we confuse what happened (overall winning record) with what impact the manager had on the said outcome.  More specifcally, what does Rocco do or what has he done that makes him a good manager.   I'd say he is below average at line up construction, pinch hitting moves, bullpen management, and running a fundamentally sound team. 

But other than that, how was the play Mrs Lincoln?

What would be the good traits to balance all that out? Something has actually been working. 

[karcherd]

23 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Ok.   1 Castro CF.                                              2 Lewis 2B

        3 Miranda 3B

        4 Wallner RF

        5 Santana 1B 

        6 Larnach LF 

        7 Vasquez/Jeffers 

        8 Lee SS.

That's my 8 for how things stand today. 

 

                                    

My only change to this is Julien at 2B now, Lewis 3B, and Miranda at 1B.  Santana is not an everyday player just because Rocco puts him out there doesn't mean he is.   This puts the best available players at their best positions.  If you want to move Lewis do it in spring training.

[howeda7]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

So easy to smugly dismiss the idea, but no actual defense of the manager.

To the OP: preach, 

The Twins need a MLB manager. This has been pretty evident for a couple years now.

 

 

Yes. But only if Falvey goes too. Otherwise the new Rocco will be the same as the old Rocco. Managing by the spreadsheet that was given to him by the computer geeks 5 hours before the game.

[karcherd]

Since 2020 Rocco is at .500 and one playoff series win.  Not terrible but after 5 years I would hope to have a better record to build off of 2019.  So what is he doing that is so great, he has been basically been an average manager the last 4 years.

[USAFChief]

8 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

Correa was also on the injured list in April.  

 

You are correct. I missed that.

It does not change anything.

 

 

[gregens]

5 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

So who would you suggest?

I'm not familiar enough with all the minor league managers for all mlb teams to choose one, but I'd look for someone who is good at the previously mentioned traits in this thread. In addition to someone who has more fire in their personality.  Not a hot-head but also not an emotionless person.

[Riverbrian]

35 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Thanks

I assume 8 was chosen by the OP because the catcher's position is not debateable. You will still need to fit a DH into the lineup. 

 

Here's mine

Castro CF

Lewis 2B

Wallner RF

Santana 1B

Miranda 3B

Larnach LF

Lee SS

Jeffers C

Julien DH

Extras

Vazquez

Keirsay

Helman

Farmer

Martin

However, I certainly wouldn't ever lock in a batting order. There is no reason to do so. Batters can hit anywhere in the order and it shouldn't disrupt anything and I'm not afraid of shifting players around so I'm only following OP protocol. 

However, I like the left handers spaced out evenly so any thought of bringing in a left hander to face our left hander will be followed with two guys in the right handed batters box. I especially like Santana and Lee following a lefty hitter because Santana and Lee are both better against the lefty pitcher.  

I'm choosing to DH Julien today because Lewis needs some 2B work because I want Lewis, Santana, Miranda, Larnach and Wallner in the playoff lineup. 

If everyone is healthy... because I would like to see Lewis, Santana, Miranda, Larnach and Wallner in the playoff lineup. Kepler in RF would force Lewis to 2B because we are out of spots with Larnach or Wallner taking the DH Spot.

Keeping Lewis at 3B would force either Miranda, Santana, Larnach, Wallner or Kepler out of the lineup because we would be out of spots. 

Castro at 2B will force Lewis to 3B which of course dominos to the same above scenario of Miranda, Santana, Larnach, Wallner or Kepler out of the lineup. 

I go back and forth on Kepler. He certainly isn't a slam dunk yes in the lineup. Kepler out will make the return of Lewis to 3B sensible.  

 

 

 

[Craig Arko]

5 minutes ago, gregens said:

I'm not familiar enough with all the minor league managers for all mlb teams to choose one, but I'd look for someone who is good at the previously mentioned traits in this thread. In addition to someone who has more fire in their personality.  Not a hot-head but also not an emotionless person.

Seems pretty vague. How about Toby Gardenhire?

[gregens]

13 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

Seems pretty vague. How about Toby Gardenhire?

Gardenhire is someone that should be interviewed.

[Squirrel]

9 hours ago, gregens said:

No disrespect intended, but I think we confuse what happened (overall winning record) with what impact the manager had on the said outcome.  More specifcally, what does Rocco do or what has he done that makes him a good manager.   I'd say he is below average at line up construction, pinch hitting moves, bullpen management, and running a fundamentally sound team. 

This is where I digress from most of you. Can a manager impact a game? Yes. Has Rocco? Most likely, no way to really know for sure or how often, but most likely. Enough to really make a difference? Perhaps ... depends on how close you are in the end. But I wouldn't say his impact was as much as what most of you think. Rocco isn't great, but I don't think he's the worst, either. And I've said this for most of the last couple of seasons. It's up to the players to play ... they know their roles, then execute. Some of you believe how he handles the line up and bp matter; okay, yes, they matter, but how much? I'm not convinced it matters as much as most of think think. I'm not sure it's the reason for losses; if it is, it's the reason for wins, too, and there are more of those than losses. I don't think every loss is on him. I don't think most losses are on him same as I don't credit him for most of the wins, either. I just don't believe the manager is that affecting of the outcome. Now, in the end, if your difference is within 5 games ... certainly, some of that is on Rocco. But a lot of that is on the players. A lot more, imo. More losses come at their hands than Rocco's. More wins come at their hands than Rocco's, too. I also think the FO has a lot of fingers in this, as well. If not Rocco, we'd likely have someone just like him and we'd still be here. And then there's ownership cutting payroll and limiting who we can get. That is more frustrating to me, way more. Losing is not a one person thing, but most nights, after a loss, I hear many of you point the finger at one person. It just isn't so, imo. The managers in this game have always been the scapegoats. Always. 

[Craig Arko]

13 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

This is where I digress from most of you. Can a manager impact a game? Yes. Has Rocco? Most likely, no way to really know for sure or how often, but most likely. Enough to really make a difference? Perhaps ... depends on how close you are in the end. But I wouldn't say his impact was as much as the most of you think. Rocco isn't great, but I don't think he's the worst, either. And I've said this for most of the last couple of seasons. It's up to the players to play ... they know their roles, then execute. Some of you believe how he handles the line up and bp matter; okay, yes, they matter, but how much? I'm not convinced it matters as much as most of think think. I'm not sure it's the reason for losses; if it is, it's the reason for wins, too. I don't think every loss is on him. I don't think most losses are on him same as I don't credit him for most of the wins, either. I just don't believe the manager is that affecting of the outcome. Now, in the end, if your difference is within 5 games ... certainly, some of that is on Rocco. But a lot of that is on the players. A lot more, imo. More losses come at their hands than Rocco's. More wins come at their hands than Rocco's, too. I also think the FO has a lot of fingers in this, too. If not Rocco, we'd likely have someone just like him and we'd still be here. And then there's ownership cutting payroll and limiting who we can get. Losing is not on one person thing, but most nights, after a loss, I hear many of you point the finger at one person. It just isn't so, imo. The managers in this game have always been the scapegoats. Always. 

Yeah, overall this squad is pretty middle of the pack talent-wise. Not to be boringly repetitive, but I’m not sure who’d get much more out of them.

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

 

Kansas City has played 141 games this season.

Bobby Witt Jr has played 141 games this season. 140 at SS. One at DH.

He has batted in the following lineup spots: 2nd.

Yup, that's it. 2nd. 

Now tell me what that would look like if he played for Rocco.

BTW, Aaron Judge has played 138 games this season. The Yankees: 140

He's hit in the following lineup spots: 3rd.

Ohtani: 137 games. But you got us, he's somehow been thrown all over the lineup. He's batted both 1st and 2nd.

 

This accidentilly got turned into a individual player discussion but it's really a manager philosphy team discussion if I'm not wrong.

Judge has played DH 37, RF 7 and LF 5. Grisham has played CF 64 times... 49 starts. Jazz Chisolm was acquired and moved to 3B immediately by the Yankees. Jazz had never played 3B in his professional career prior to his acquisition. 25 Starts at 3B and 1 start in CF for the Yanks. Verdugo has played all 3 OF positions and Soto has seen some time in LF. 

Rizzo, Torres and Volpe have only played 1B, 2B and SS so there is that. 

The Dodgers. Ohtani has been the DH pretty much every day... But, they invented moving players around especially in the infield. Betts, Taylor, Kike and Rojas have been all over the infield and outfield.

The Royals are pretty static but they do move Perez between C, 1B and DH to get his bat in the lineup and Mikael Garcia plugs into 2B,3B and he plays SS on the rare Witt day off. 

Player movement is not a unique thing.  

[farmerguychris]

Managers get too much credit when things go well, and too much criticism when things go bad.

One significant fact that most casual fans don't seem to realize is that Rocco doesn't get to pick which players are on his roster - thats what the FO does.  Rocco just has to make the best of what he's given on a game to game basis.

If someone is hurt - thats also not his fault, but his ability to manage the team, often without the best and most expensive players is what he's being judged by.

As far as the topic of batting order.... Do we really think professional ball players suddenly can't hit that day when they find themselves batting 7th instead of 3rd like they were the day before?  

I think Rocco's fine.  I generally think the FO is also fine.  But - the reason we aren't flying into the post season is the decision to not spend money to stay competitive after a successful 2023 campaign.  Are there any managers who could run away with the division with the hand (players and injuries) that Rocco's been dealt?  I don't think so.

Lastly - if Rocco's going to be replaced by this FO, he's only going to be replaced by someone else who manages by analytics.  Get used to it because thats not going away and it is the future of basebal (and all sports), like it or not.

 

[Linus]

Put me in the camp that says managers aren’t as important as most people think. I also think Rocco has far less autonomy than prior managers. The FO has a certain way they want the games to be managed regardless if it’s Rocco or a new guy. There are things I really dislike about how games are managed but my guess is most of it is coming from the FO. I will say Rocco seems to run a good clubhouse in that we don’t read about strife and his clubs seem to bounce back after tough losses. On the flip side his teams are poor at fundamentals and that goes back to the beginning of his tenure. Again I don’t know how much of that is on him or the organization. I hate the idea that they just plug guys into spots as if they don’t care about defense. The early game pinch hitting is something that I disagree with but I believe that is being dictated by the FO. So I guess I’m saying there is a lot I disagree with but really have no idea who is actually responsible for it. 

[Mike Sixel]

People think a professional MLB hitter doesn't know what to do if he bats 2nd or 3rd or 7th? Like, they literally don't know their role is to get hits? 

My theory is managers matter much more off the field than on. That this isn't football where the coaches call plays. Does a manager matter on field? Yes.

For those saying "he's average" over his tenure.....how many games would a better manager have won the year they had 1 good SP? 

[Craig Arko]

30 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

People think a professional MLB hitter doesn't know what to do if he bats 2nd or 3rd or 7th? Like, they literally don't know their role is to get hits? 

My theory is managers matter much more off the field than on. That this isn't football where the coaches call plays. Does a manager matter on field? Yes.

For those saying "he's average" over his tenure.....how many games would a better manager have won the year they had 1 good SP? 

42.

[Mike Sixel]

13 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

42.

I never would have guessed this was the ultimate question!

[Craig Arko]

Just now, Mike Sixel said:

I never would have guessed this was the ultimate question!

Hiding in plain sight all along.

[cmoss84]

I'm guessing Rocco is about middle of the pack. He can make some very questionable moves, but he also holds the fort down during a long MLB season. Not sure who else would be available next year. Maybe Scott Servais?Maybe a Twins farm hand coach? Any way you slice it, the FO is not going to get rid of him if we make the playoffs. 

[stringer bell]

I do think not counting Correa's earlier IL stint matters greatly in comparing his usage to Witt Jr. and Judge. Nobody will play all 162 for Baldelli IMHO, but if Correa and Lewis were healthy and showing no symptoms of fatigue, they would play in over 90% of the games. Correa was in the top of the order most of the time and when Lewis was hitting like a superstar, he was too. 

At times, Miranda and Wallner have looked like they should be permanent middle of the order bats, but so far they haven't demonstrated the consistency to write their names in ink in the lineup every day and maybe in a specific place in the order.

It seems to me that Rocco really shields his younger left handed batters from left handed pitchers. The four at the beginning of the season were Wallner, Kirilloff, Julien and Larnach. None have performed well against lefties, but is it because they haven't seen enough of them or because they aren't that good? By mid-season, Julien and Wallner had been demoted (then returned) and Kirilloff slumped miserably against all pitching. So maybe they just aren't good enough hitters to play every day. It's a chicken and egg thing IYAM.

Baldelli seems much more willing for the Martins and Margots of the world to face right handed pitching. My biggest gripe against the Twins' manager is the quick hook for lefty swingers in games. I've heard the stats over and over, but having a Margot or Martin face a right handed pitcher (instead of say Wallner or Larnach) in the seventh and ninth innings seems like a horrible miscalculation. 

It's very apparent that Baldelli isn't going to trust rookie starters to face a lineup for the third time unless they are absolutely rolling. August/September Pablo has his trust and Ober and Ryan (prior to injury) were on their way. He won't overuse his bullpen guys in the first half of the season. This late in the year, he's leaning heavier on his few reliable bullpen arms. So far Jax, Durán and Sands are holding up, but Alcala is questionable. If Rocco doesn't overuse his key guys, others are going to have to pitch in high leverage and no one else has stepped forward.

All I've ever heard about the club outside the lines is that Rocco is well respected and that the players get along well. I think discipline is handled privately. Baldelli isn't one to publicly berate his players. Does this supposed "loose ship" make for poor fundamentals? I don't know. Maybe there shouldn't be three converted infielders in the outfield. Sometimes you play with the cards you're dealt. 

On balance, I don't think Baldelli is the problem. I think he can do a better job, but the same is true with about 29 other major league managers. It's mostly the players that win games.

[cmoss84]

Don't worry-there will be a WAR statistic for coaches soon. And who knows what else. Maybe we should start a thread on this site to come up with managerial sabermetrics. 

[Shaitan]

2 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

Don't worry-there will be a WAR statistic for coaches soon. And who knows what else. Maybe we should start a thread on this site to come up with managerial sabermetrics. 

Sorry but WAR is old news. I only care how many mph a baseball is hit. Can we tie that in? I don't care what direction the ball goes in. Just how hard they hit it. Bonus points if they tear off their jersey and flex afterward.

[tony&rodney]

10 hours ago, USAFChief said:

 

Kansas City has played 141 games this season.

Bobby Witt Jr has played 141 games this season. 140 at SS. One at DH.

He has batted in the following lineup spots: 2nd.

Yup, that's it. 2nd. 

Now tell me what that would look like if he played for Rocco.

BTW, Aaron Judge has played 138 games this season. The Yankees: 140

He's hit in the following lineup spots: 3rd.

Ohtani: 137 games. But you got us, he's somehow been thrown all over the lineup. He's batted both 1st and 2nd.

 

The Twins do not have anyone who is even close to doing anything as well as everything that Witt Jr. does every day. Judge? Ohtani? I'm a fan of set lineups where it is feasible though. 

[tony&rodney]

3 hours ago, stringer bell said:

It's mostly the players that win games.

This is gospel. There are arguments whether a manager can affect between 2-6 games a year. but mostly less. Of course, if you are a person focused on some specific disgust with a manager then that manager is responsible for potentially every loss. The White Sox need a new manager .... every week.

[BiggestRoccoFan]

12 hours ago, C-Gangster said:

Nope Balldeli stays.  he is probably one of the best managers in our history. he won AL manger of the year in 2019. personally i disagree . And i love rocco

Yawn. The Twins could go 0-162 and you would still love Rocco!

[C-Gangster]

9 hours ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

Yawn. The Twins could go 0-162 and you would still love Rocco!

Yes i would because that would be our ownership's fault.

[Parfigliano]

13 hours ago, Shaitan said:

Sorry but WAR is old news. I only care how many mph a baseball is hit. Can we tie that in? I don't care what direction the ball goes in. Just how hard they hit it. Bonus points if they tear off their jersey and flex afterward.

Dont forget to factor in the spin rate on that hit ball.

[Patzky]

22 hours ago, karcherd said:

Since 2020 Rocco is at .500 and one playoff series win.  Not terrible but after 5 years I would hope to have a better record to build off of 2019.  So what is he doing that is so great, he has been basically been an average manager the last 4 years.

Or this has been an average team since then..

[TopTwinsFan]

Consistently and again tonight at the Royals, Roccos lineups are indicitive of somone who doesnt understand human nature and who overthinks his lineups on a daily basis. Santana batting first makes no sense no matter how much you stare at statistics. Then batting someone who should be in the minor leagues fifth with Farmer. Rocco thinks its super smart because later in the 7th he can pinch hit a lefty in that spot. He isnt smart enough to understand it will mean an automatic out every time Far.mer bats. Of course, in the first Farmer bats with two on and two out and is an easy out (as always).

This lineup bugged me from the moment I saw it, as usual with Roccos lineups, Batting Luplow, Larnach, Jeffers or Santana first. So wish we had a manager who really knew what he was doing. Hes good in some areas but ridiculously bad in this area. 

Dont even get me started on his talk about being aggressive at the plate, no one who has ever played baseball stands at the plate and doesnt want to swing. But again, he has no understanding of human psychology. Mauer understood this, being aggressive at the plate is just another way of saying you are going to have a short at bat and increase your chances of swinging at a pitchers pitch.

Sadly, great managers are needed to win a World Series and Rocco is no great manager. Even after years of managing he doesnt learn or get better in this area. I just sadly dont think he is intelligent enough.