Pohlad Family, Lords of the Realm, Choose Preserving Profit Over Seizing a Moment

[IndianaTwin]

8 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

I’m bored of the Pohlad bashing. There’s 30+ years of evidence how they run the team. They actually shared the truth about having a very tight budget this season. Some chose not to listen.

At least this year they didn’t insult our intelligence by saying “We definitely would have approved a trade if Falvey presented it to us” 

We are all adults with the ability to make our own decisions. There’s 29 other MLB teams. I’m looking forward to this pity party ending and getting back to talking about the current roster of Twins players. 

Hear, hear, Vanimal. 

And can you imagine how brutal Twins Daily would have been had they NOT told people they were planning to reduce budget and then did it anyhow?

[Western SD Fan]

I was not around when the Griffith's owned the team.  I will have to acquiesce and believe the commenters here that the Pohlad's are a better ownership family.  Let us take a trip down memory lane of the Pohlad ownership of the Twins:

• 1984 - Purchased 52% of the Twins from the Griffith's.  
• 1987 - Win WS: Traded and signed for the following players:  Ron Gardenhire, Jeff Reardon, Al Newman, Joe Niekro, Steve Carlton, Don Baylor, and Bert Blyleven
• 1988 - First year Twins have 3 million fans in attendance, only beat by 2010
• 1991 - Win WS: Traded and signed the following players: Steve Bedrosian, Randy Bush, Mike Pagliarulo, and Jack Morris
• 1997 - After tearing down the team over the past few years, the Pohlads threaten to sell the team to a NC ownership group with intention on moving the team.  Later takes this back as only a bargaining tool to get a new stadium, but who knows?
• 2001-2002 offseason: Serves his team up for contraction so MLB can buy the Pohlads out.  Team is saved by the Metropolitan Sports Facilities Commission suing to honor their contract to play out the season and a MN federal judge agrees.  The kids grow up and make their best playoff run to date in spite of ownership trying to contract them.
• 2006 - Ownership finally gets a deal with Hennepin County to help fund a stadium.  Total is $522 million with Hennepin County footing $375 million of it by approving a county wide sales tax.  Side note: Counties that do this typically sell municipal bonds to raise the funds for this type of project.  So the cost is likely more than $375 million and likely that Hennepin County taxpayers are STILL paying for Target Field for the Pohlads..
• 2010 - Target Field opens: Fans respond by largest attendance ever by the team (3.2 million).  Team goes for it by acquiring Matt Capps for future Joe Mauer replacement Wilson Ramos

Since Target Field has opened, the Pohlads have essentially played the hokey pokey with fans.  They get a little in some years and other years are little (or a lot) out.  They have spent a lot of off seasons and trade deadlines staying put rather than making a move that could have helped the team when they had a chance to win.  I encourage anyone to dispute or add context to my timeline if they believe I am being unfair.

When the Pohlads just purchased the team and had that nice pretty new team smell with something to prove to a fanbase, they went for it and were awarded with two WS titles in the first 10 years of ownership. After "they got theirs", they threaten to move AND contract the team in the next 10 years of ownership.  After finally hooking Hennepin County into helping fund a new stadium, they promise to raise payroll and bring competitive baseball back to MN.  We have had more losing seasons than winning seasons since Target Field has opened up, so I am still waiting on that competitive baseball spending.

Let me respond to the commenters who ask what they should have done at the deadline.  I agree that the prices in prospects were too high for many of the trades that were done.  I have said that this angst has been nine months in the making by announcing they are slashing payroll within days after the team's most successful run since 2002. At the time, we didn't know how much but understood because the TV situation was in flux.  After they sign the TV deal, we dream that they will open up a little more and get the players that could help us, like they did in 1987 and 1991.  They didn't just like they didn't spend any of the TV reallocation money that was supposed to help generate trades.

One last point.  Younger fans follow stars of the sport, not necessarily a team anymore.  If you want new fans, new merchandise spending, new ticket sales, you need to develop, trade for, sign, and market your stars.  Younger fans are following Aaron Judge, Mookie Betts, Bobby Witt, Jr, Vladdy Jr.  We have our start, Carlos Correa, Byron Buxton, Pablo Lopez and Royce Lewis.  Unfortunately, they are a lot tougher to market and I don't think the team does a good job of marketing them nationally.

IMHO, this ownership group got their WS titles early and are just willing to sit on their laurels and deposit dividends as they have the past 30 years. Sometimes they have one middle finger at the fans, sometimes two middle fingers, every once in a while, they poke the fans in the eye with that middle finger.  Rarer still, they don't raise any fingers towards the fans and give us hope.  As for worse ownership, it could be worse being a fan of the A's.  Comparing to the Rays, we are the Rays with a better stadium and worse player development and coaching and a marginally higher payroll.

I apologize for the lengthy post.  I really wanted to push back at the commenters that jump at the 48-hour reaction of "What do you expect them to do?".  This apathy by ownership is a company culture which is decades in the making, not just this year's deadline, not just this past off season.  I believe politicians more than I believe in the Pohlads as an ownership group.  Sadly enough, I don't think I'm the only fan posting on TD that believes that last statement.

[IndianaTwin]

8 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

I think this is fair. I think it's also fair that people vent less than 24 hours after the team they root for does nothing at the trade deadline. Not even a full day yet. 

Agreed, also fair.

Vanimal didn't explicitly say it this way, but I will. I'm bored of the Pohlad bashing that's still rehashing the offseason spending pattern. I join those looking forward to "getting back to talking about the current roster of Twins players." 

[Rufus]

This is a very poorly written story.  the Twins clearly got out bid by the Astros for 
Kikuchi, they gave up 3 major league ready players for a rental starter.  The Twins would have been fools to do that,  From reports the Tigers and White Sox wanted Jenkins,  Lee or Rodreguez for Flaherty or Fedde once again they would have been fools to make those trades.  I watched the Mets broadcast of the game yesterday, they interviewed their GM and asked him why no top 100 prospects were traded for pitching.  He replied, because no pitchers that were traded were worth a top 100 prospect.  Festa seems to be holding his own as the 5th starter.  He shutout the Mets for five innings.  Not bad for the 5th starter.  I think the front office know what they are doing

[Linus]

I realize that people are disappointed and are piling on the Pohlads right now but if you step back and look at their ownership tenure they have invited healthy doses of skepticism. They have threatened to move the franchise, threatened to contract the franchise and generally placed achieving fiscal goals as their top priority. So when they come off an off season like the one we just experienced, what do you expect people to think or say?  I don’t consider the Pohlads evil incarnate but can anybody actually be shocked by fans being frustrated?  

[IndianaTwin]

20 minutes ago, Western SD Fan said:

Since Target Field has opened, the Pohlads have essentially played the hokey pokey with fans.  They get a little in some years and other years are little (or a lot) out.  They have spent a lot of off seasons and trade deadlines staying put rather than making a move that could have helped the team when they had a chance to win.  I encourage anyone to dispute or add context to my timeline if they believe I am being unfair.

I'll focus mainly on the last few years, but I think they've made a lot of moves "that could have helped the team when they had a chance to win."

Carlos Correa, Pablo Lopez, Tyler Mahle, Sam Dyson, Sergio Romo, Byron Buxton extension, Jake Odorizzi, Kenta Maeda, Kenta Maeda again, Nelson Cruz, Nelson Cruz again, Donovan Salano, Joey Gallo, Michael A. Taylor, significantly expanded payrolls for a couple years, Kyle Farmer, tendering Kyle Farmer, Anthony DeSclafina, Carlos Santana.

Not all have turned out well (see strikethrus) and some on TD have not liked their fairly deliberate approach that's led to a lot of transactions happening late in the offseason, but I generally haven't seen them staying put. They have the past two deadlines, but all in all, it seems like they are pretty active at making moves.

[tony&rodney]

47 minutes ago, Linus said:

can anybody actually be shocked by fans being frustrated?  

No. The frustration is real. As a Twins fan I feel it as a near constant for the last 30+ years.

The outpouring of venom and hatred is not healthy though. It's baseball we follow and the management is a distraction which is beyond our control or the players.

I will be more exact, but just about the recent trade deadline because it is too futile to go back to the last many winters of discontent. I thought the Twins had a chance to trade for A. J. Puk. I would have given Gonzalez, Severino, and Kiersey Jr. Naturally, others will disagree, suggest that AZ gave up better players, not have been interested in Puk, or something else. I don't know what Falvey had in mind, much less how other teams view the Twins organizational players. So I'm frustrated and just move on because these things are well beyond my control. 

While I may not be a fan of ownership or the front office, I see little future in striking out at people i don't even know. Yet certainly, the frustration is real.

[Doctor Gast]

10 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

FWIW, there were other groups willing to buy the Twins. MLB has final and complete control of who can buy a franchise. The other groups were not approved. A third group, in addition to the two rejected, was headed by Calvin's son. Believe it or not, the terms of sale were actually doable - $5M down with 5 years of payments of $5M each and then a balloon for the remainder. The sale did not include the minority portion owned by a Gabe Murphy (off the top of my head), which was 42-48% but had zero vote or control in the team. Carl later paid about $12M for those shares. 

Carl Pohlad did not save the Twins, but the ownership has been stable. This is more than some clubs and one should always be careful when making wishes.

Someone mentioned Mark Cuban in a comment recently. I forgot the context. Cuban tried to buy an MLB team but was turned down. MLB is an exclusive club. You cannot get in just because you have billions.

I don't doubt there were other buyers but were there any who were willing to keep the Twins in MN?

[Ole St Carleton]

I agree with everything Ted says, but even with a good starter or bullpen arm added at the deadline, this team would NOT win the World Series this year. Therefore, management and coaches should emphasize training the young players to play baseball in a complete way. Bunting, sacrificing, stealing bases, advancing runners, putting the ball in play, solid defense…these are things that the Twins sorely lack. Bring back the Little Piranas!

[laloesch]

20 hours ago, Whitey333 said:

Since the Twins appear to want to follow the Tampa Bay Ray's baseball model they may as well continue it lol.  The first thing this off season would be to trade Carlos Correa.  I wouldn't be surprised if they approach him to ask him to approve a trade even though he has a no trade contract.  They obviously misled Correa as well.  I'm sure he was expecting a organization that wanted to win.  Correa is good for the team but for a team that doesn't want to invest in the product, Correa is an unneeded luxury.  Plus at this point you almost owe it to Correa to send him to an organization that needs him and appreciate him.

How are you gonna trade him when he can't stay healthy?  The next step will be to trade Lewis, Lee, Ryan, Ober, Lopez.  Time to start over.

[JD-TWINS]

20 hours ago, NYCTK said:

The Mets have supplanted the Twins as my primary team. Not only because I live in New York now, but because it's refreshing to follow a team that actually wants to win. Steve Cohen is obnoxious with his massive wealth, but it's refreshing to see an owner that does not view his team as an asset to increase his wealth but instead a sports franchise which he wants to help win games.

An owner that's a fan of his team, how novel!

I get your sentiment.

Sure seems the Fan shifted gears quickly last year trading both Scherzer & Verlander away……his new toys weren’t helping them get competitive so he moved them and still had to eat big chunks of their salaries. Maybe not the ideal way to spend all that $$$?

They haven’t extended Alonso - yet……he seems to have gotten a dose of “frugal owner” in ‘24. Odd how building across the board with balanced talent v. the big names, have paid off for Mets this year. Obviously, their payroll isn’t thin but he certainly stepped back and seems cautious moving forward.

[tony&rodney]

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I don't doubt there were other buyers but were there any who were willing to keep the Twins in MN?

Yes, I only referenced those three who were Minnesotans. 

Less was known about a few groups that were interested in moving the team. The groups from NC and FL that people often reference were much later, after a decade plus of Pohlad's ownership.

[JD-TWINS]

14 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

This may be the first Pohlad apologist I have seen on this website.  Congratulations, you are a trailblazer!

1)  The Twins are making money.  Period.  Either in year-over-year cash profit or in overall team value.  To say otherwise is 100% false.  If owning a professional team was not a money maker, leagues would not exist (unless you are the WNBA subsidized by the NBA).

2) The complaint about the Pohlads is not just about the trade deadline.  The deadline inactivity just keeps compounding the major public missteps this team has made since the end of last year.

3) Owning a professional sports team is a long-view proposition.  It is not about squeezing every last penny you can today.  The Bally decision to take the immediate money now probably earned the team an extra few million today, but how much are they losing all of the other secondary revenue that comes with higher visibility?  Not to mention lower gate sales at home games... How many years is it going to take to repair that damage?  You need to spend money to make money, they just don't seem to get that.

I have said this before and will say it again.  I am a huge Twins fan.  I have been around long enough to see games at the old Met stadium.  I just want the Twins ownership to actually care about the product and their customers, instead of just looking at everyone like dollar signs.  Where is Mark Cuban when you need him?  

Around a long time as well. Don’t love current ownership but there’s no hate.

To me, the acquisitions that would have helped the club (many of them) were not specifically $$ issues they were “prospect capital” decisions. These are conscious decisions about the health of the future of the club. Another guy at TD stated Gonzalez - Severino - Kiersey for A.J. Puk may have been an option - I agree with that from Twin’s angle but maybe not enough in this market. Trying to get better trading with NEED in the SAME DIVISION is setting yourself up to get raked over the coals for high end prospects. Not really I practical option/approach.

While I do think spending contraction of $30M was stifling for the club’s progression in ‘24, the deadline was more about making prudent trades and not tossing guys away for a short term pat on the back. Probably missed out on 2-3 different trades that could have been made but have to be real with the fact that there were a dozen other buyers out there making offers as well.

All in all, if Topa does anything positive & Correa can be 85% of what he’s been & back in a couple more weeks, things will be “OK”. They still make the Playoffs - going to be teams at their heals for 50 more games - playoffs aren’t a given. If things click (‘23 D-backs) they are fully capable, with this roster, to get to ALCS!

[NYCTK]

40 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

I get your sentiment.

Sure seems the Fan shifted gears quickly last year trading both Scherzer & Verlander away……his new toys weren’t helping them get competitive so he moved them and still had to eat big chunks of their salaries. Maybe not the ideal way to spend all that $$$?

They haven’t extended Alonso - yet……he seems to have gotten a dose of “frugal owner” in ‘24. Odd how building across the board with balanced talent v. the big names, have paid off for Mets this year. Obviously, their payroll isn’t thin but he certainly stepped back and seems cautious moving forward.

Not really. He offered massive contracts to the two highest profile free agents and will write a blank check to Soto. Pete was offefered a 7 year $158 Million extension and turned it down! Dumb cause he's not getting that offer again after this disappointing season. 

A one year unplanned reset to help escape some of the luxury tax is going to make next offseason quite interesting. 

[JD-TWINS]

1 minute ago, NYCTK said:

Not really. He offered massive contracts to the two highest profile free agents and will write a blank check to Soto. Pete was offefered a 7 year $158 Million extension and turned it down! Dumb cause he's not getting that offer again after this disappointing season. 

A one year unplanned reset to help escape some of the luxury tax is going to make next offseason quite interesting. 

Soto should be interesting!!

Assuming, assuming that he had his fingers in the Correa decision……..little different animal there.

I guess with the Club squarely in the Wildcard, didn’t seem to do much at the deadline (maybe I missed something?) and to me, that says he’s being more prudent and less FAN like?

[NYCTK]

2 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Soto should be interesting!!

Assuming, assuming that he had his fingers in the Correa decision……..little different animal there.

I guess with the Club squarely in the Wildcard, didn’t seem to do much at the deadline (maybe I missed something?) and to me, that says he’s being more prudent and less FAN like?

They picked up a Marte backup, a 5th starter and a plethora of bullpen arms. They actually had a great deadline, doing enough to patch holes while not sending out any prospects that the team will miss. 

They did enough to show the team on the field and the fans in the stands that they want to win. 

I'm actually super excited about the Mets now! 

[terrydactyls]

21 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I'm sorry ashbury about those big business takeovers that affected your life. This world is tough for the small guy. The Pohlad's takeover of the Twins wasn't eliminating the small guy but saving MLB baseball here in MN. The Twins were about to go out the door to somewhere else before the Pohlads stepped in & saved the day. They kept the Twins in MN, not only to just get by but also to bring a WS championship to MN. Whom I'm very grateful because they gave us many teams for us to cheer for. Plus I grew up under the Griffith era.

Andy MacPhail left the Twins because MN is a mid-market team not able to sustain a perennial WS contender. IDK if the Pohlads are losing money, making money or milking the money cow. But I don't begrudge them of making a profit to keep the Twins in MN. This Pohlad bashing especially by media does nothing to better the Twins situation but only sours the fans' support & maybe the Pohlads' motivation. Maybe one day they wake up & realize the Twins aren't worth the headache & sell the team to Nashville. Is that what we want? I think not. We need to quit blaming the Pohlads for this FO inability to initiate big trades.

Please remind me again....  How are you related to the Pohlad family??

[Fire Dan Gladden]

15 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Someone mentioned Mark Cuban in a comment recently. I forgot the context. Cuban tried to buy an MLB team but was turned down. MLB is an exclusive club. You cannot get in just because you have billions.

The Cuban quote was mine.  Cuban was not "denied" by the MLB glass ceiling, he was outmaneuvered by FOX television:
https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/business/how-mark-cuban-lost-the-texas-rangers-to-ray-davis/

Edit:
My memory stands corrected.  The old-boys network in full force:
https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/mavs-mark-cuban-baseball-is-a-mess-im-thankful-they-didnt-let-me-buy-a-team

One of the reasons Cuban was so loved by the Mavericks is that he turned Dallas into a place players wanted to come.  He invested millions into player accommodations (locker-room, dietary, travel, player health and wellness), changing the way all NBA teams had to treat their players  He also constantly fought the NBA status quo by publicly addressing NBA shortfalls when no one else would.

Cuban would be great for baseball as he would attack the old-boys, status-quo network like no one else would.

[terrydactyls]

15 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

The Cuban quote was mine.  Cuban was not "denied" by the MLB glass ceiling, he was outmaneuvered by FOX television:
https://nypost.com/2023/11/07/business/how-mark-cuban-lost-the-texas-rangers-to-ray-davis/

One of the reasons Cuban was so loved by the Mavericks is that he turned Dallas into a place players wanted to come.  He invested millions into player accommodations (locker-room, dietary, travel, player health and wellness), changing the way all NBA teams had to treat their players  He also constantly fought the NBA status quo by publicly addressing NBA shortfalls when no one else would.

Cuban would be great for baseball as he would attack the old-boys, status-quo network like no one else would.

That is the best explanation of why Cuban was denied admission to the MLB Owners club.  No owner would accept a new member who is going to upset the apple cart.

[Doctor Gast]

36 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

Please remind me again....  How are you related to the Pohlad family??

I wish

[Fire Dan Gladden]

30 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

That is the best explanation of why Cuban was denied admission to the MLB Owners club.  No owner would accept a new member who is going to upset the apple cart.

I agree with this assessment.  The sad part is that he was directly/indirectly responsible for a lot of the positive growth and change in the NBA.  Change, while always difficult, is not always bad.

[Mike Sixel]

50 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

There are several different ways to run a team.  You can spend like crazy like the Mets, Dodgers, and Yankees and MAY win a title once a while.  You can spend little and trade away your best players every year like the Rays and NEVER have a chance to win a title, or you can tank big time like the Pirates or Orioles and stock up on high draft picks to occasionally have a chance at a title.

OR

You can be in the middle like the Twins and spend some while building from within and add at the deadline (i.e. spend) to get over the hump when you feel that you are close to a title.  I like this approach as it means we are competitive every year.  That the Twins DID NOT go all in suggests to me that they feel like they ARE NOT close enough this year to go for it.

Then they should have sold expiring contracts. 

[tony&rodney]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Then they should have sold expiring contracts. 

Perhaps they tried.

[ashbury]

On 8/1/2024 at 9:32 AM, Doctor Gast said:

I'm sorry ashbury about those big business takeovers that affected your life. This world is tough for the small guy

Ha ha ha ha ha.  Did I say I was harmed?  I did not.  I was not.  I was basically unaffected by the first  one, I benefited so greatly from the second that I could look forward to retiring before I turned 60, and I did retire after the third merger because I didn't like the outcome and I could.  But, please, do, feel free to operate on your own assumptions.  I watched these mergers with keen interest and I see parallels to now.

Your ad hominem condescension was almost overlooked, because I have you on Ignore at this site, but someone quoted you where you mentioned me.  Carry on, HTH, HAND.

[KirbyDome89]

On 8/1/2024 at 4:58 PM, Vanimal46 said:

Maybe one day Charlie Brown will kick that football Lucy is holding. 

I don't understand how lowering the bar helps. 

[Doctor Gast]

3 hours ago, ashbury said:

Ha ha ha ha ha.  Did I say I was harmed?  I did not.  I was not.  I was basically unaffected by the first  one, I benefited so greatly from the second that I could look forward to retiring before I turned 60, and I did retire after the third merger because I didn't like the outcome and I could.  But, please, do, feel free to operate on your own assumptions.  I watched these mergers with keen interest and I see parallels to now.

Your ad hominem condescension was almost overlooked, because I have you on Ignore at this site, but someone quoted you where you mentioned me.  Carry on, HTH, HAND.

I misjudged you! It won't happen again!

[Rufus]

On 8/1/2024 at 1:57 PM, Parfigliano said:

Also a Met fan.  Cohen spends freely.  He needs to learn how to spend.

It's not how much money you spend, It's how you spend your money

[Rufus]

On 8/1/2024 at 10:25 AM, ashbury said:

I was affected by three mergers or acquisitions during my career.  The Pohlads' handling of the Twins right now looks for all the world to me like a cash cow that they intended to milk until it runs dry and then they discard it.  Baseball's not a similar business* to high-tech industry, so maybe the similarities to what I saw don't apply; warning lights sometimes give false positives.

 

* indeed I've said elsewhere recently that I don't see it as a business whatsover, except in the sense that money comes in and goes out.

The Twins are paying 47% of the total income they get on salary at present only two teams that are above them in the standings spend more then( Dodgers and the Phillies) even the Yankees spend less on salary percent wise based on income than the Twins.   The Pohlads are not trying to milk the team dry..  they have provided stable ownership  local ownership for 40 years  Would you rather they get into a mess like the current Timberwolves saga?  Careful what you wish for..

[Guest]

If you like short-term baseball operations, move to New York or Los Angeles.  Percentage-wise, payroll-to-profit, the Twins stack up pretty well, but they're in a small market and local government has done their very best to make things difficult for fans.  The Twins' best strategy is to play for the long-term.  It doesn't make any sense at all to trade away the future for rental players in a sellers' market.  Sometimes, Ted, I'm convinced you think the Pohlads run a public utility.  All of their businesses must stand alone economically.

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, Minderbinder said:

If you like short-term baseball operations, move to New York or Los Angeles.  Percentage-wise, payroll-to-profit, the Twins stack up pretty well, but they're in a small market and local government has done their very best to make things difficult for fans.  The Twins' best strategy is to play for the long-term.  It doesn't make any sense at all to trade away the future for rental players in a sellers' market.  Sometimes, Ted, I'm convinced you think the Pohlads run a public utility.  All of their businesses must stand alone economically.

Among other things..."local government has done their very best to make things difficult for fans"?

Pray tell, how?