Why am I a fan of this (fake) poverty franchise?

[tarheeltwinsfan]

On 2/26/2024 at 1:02 AM, bean5302 said:

Carl Pohlad was 14 at the start of the Great Depression, and 18 when he moved to California where he sold used cars before Bing Crosby convinced Pohlad to move to Spokane, WA and play football for Gonzaga. Pohlad did not get his start by foreclosing on farmers during the Great Depression since he was 14 at the start of that era. He grew up in a level of poverty the likes most on this site have never seen or could even imagine with his mom doing other people's laundry to help pay the bills, and Pohlad started out as a kid picking stickers like cockleburs and sandburs out of fields for farmers. The Great Depression was over when Pohlad was attending Gonzaga before he moved back to California to continue selling used cars.

Pohlad was drafted in 1942 during WWII, and he served in an infantry unit in the European theater. He he returned from the European theater a war hero after earning 2 Bronze Stars for heroism and 3 Purple Hearts.

After WWII, Pohlad worked for a finance company in California, which is where the legend of the foreclosure notices likely originated. Supposedly, Pohlad delivered the notices so maybe don't shoot the mailman? Details are pretty hard to come by. Rage and misinformation is pretty easy to find, though. In any case, Pohlad didn't own any banks until about 1950, when he was part of a group of investors which purchased the parent company of Marquette Bank. Pohlad eventually became the president of Marquette in 1955. Eventually, in 1982, Marquette acquired a bankrupt Farmers and Mechanics Savings Bank. Basically, the garbage story of Pohlad's origins is probably a mishmash of events crafted into a demon lord origin story.

In 1984 Pohlad acquired a majority ownership interest, but without any team control, in the Minnesota Vikings. That same year, Pohlad also bought the Twins from Calvin Griffith, saving the Twins from moving to Florida in the process, resulting in the 1987 and 1991 World Series Championship teams celebrating in the twin cities. Those championship teams would not have been possible without Pohlad consistently ponying up for middle of the pack payrolls. 1988 (11th), 1989 (8th), 1990 (18), 1991 (16), 1992 (19), 1993 (17), 1994 (21)... this is where baseball financials changed. The cheapskate Pohlad paid or extended or signed big AAV stars in Minnesota including Puckett, Viola, Morris, Hrbek, etc. The Metrodome was an absolutely terrible, horrible, awful baseball stadium. MLB was struggling post 1994 strike, and former Vikings GM Mike Lynn got 10% of all suite generated gross revenue, further insulting the wounds to the Twins' finances. Pohlad lobbied hard for a new stadium where the Twins could be competitive in the new era of baseball financials. The Twins payroll when they ranked #8 in MLB in 1989 was $15.5MM. Rebuffed again and again, MLB and Pohlad were fed up. By 1997, when the North Carolina sale was discussed, it was $25.7MM (23rd) representing a 6.5% cumulative average annual increase, but MLB payrolls had been skyrocketing with some team owners running well into the red as they ran their clubs as a hobby or community service. Pohlad was a businessman and ran the Twins not to lose money. The North Carolina deal was for about $150MM, but it was contingent on factors which were never met, and subject to an MLB owners vote that it likely wouldn't have passed, either. It's tough to say how likely a move would really have been as debates have shot a lot of holes into the potential the move would have ever really been possible.

In regard to the contraction plan, the myths and legends have grown just as famously as Mr. Pohlad's supposed origins. Volunteering to contract the team for $150MM is almost certainly a mixup of the North Carolina deal that fell through. The contraction plan was supposedly for $250MM after 9/11 with baseball reeling, and btw, there were no teams mentioned in the plan. MLB owners approved the contraction plan 28-2 with only the the Twins and Expos owners voting against the plan. There were 4 or 5 teams in the mix for being contracted, but the Twins and Expos were seen as the most likely target to be culled. Again, Pohlad voted against contraction. I'm sure this is just another conspiracy, right...

There is so much misinformation and vitriol in this evil demon lord revisions of Carl Pohlad, it's just crazy. I didn't know the guy, and I didn't consider him a great owner, but man.

I appreciate Mr. Pohlad's service to our country in WWII in an infantry unit. 3 purple hearts says it all for me. 

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Concur! My in-laws just sold their house in Fort Myers. I was there 10 of the last 15 spring trainings…. It’s the best! Especially the minor league games and the backfield practices 

I've attended parts of ST every year (except 2021) since 2001. It's nice when parents give you a nice place to land. My Mom sold her place, too, after Ian, but she now lives in a very nice apartment, still in the area. I visit as often as I can and will be down next week for a few games :)

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

I've attended parts of ST every year (except 2021) since 2001. It's nice when parents give you a nice place to land. My Mom sold her place, too, after Ian, but she now lives in a very nice apartment, still in the area. I visit as often as I can and will be down next week for a few games :)

My in laws have been wintering there two years in a row now. Thought I'd get a chance to go down there, but having three school age kids once again makes the Venn Diagram of what's desirable and what's feasible have little overlap.

[Riverbrian]

Flight, Rental Car and Hotels are booked. 

My first time attending spring training this year. 

Been on the wish list for a long time. 

I'll soon check that box. I stand here on leap day in anticipation of taking the leap. 

[Jeff K]

On 2/26/2024 at 1:02 AM, bean5302 said:

Carl Pohlad was 14 at the start of the Great Depression, and 18 when he moved to California where he sold used cars before Bing Crosby convinced Pohlad to move to Spokane, WA and play football for Gonzaga. Pohlad did not get his start by foreclosing on farmers during the Great Depression since he was 14 at the start of that era. He grew up in a level of poverty the likes most on this site have never seen or could even imagine with his mom doing other people's laundry to help pay the bills, and Pohlad started out as a kid picking stickers like cockleburs and sandburs out of fields for farmers. The Great Depression was over when Pohlad was attending Gonzaga before he moved back to California to continue selling used cars.

Pohlad was drafted in 1942 during WWII, and he served in an infantry unit in the European theater. He he returned from the European theater a war hero after earning 2 Bronze Stars for heroism and 3 Purple Hearts.

After WWII, Pohlad worked for a finance company in California, which is where the legend of the foreclosure notices likely originated. Supposedly, Pohlad delivered the notices so maybe don't shoot the mailman? Details are pretty hard to come by. Rage and misinformation is pretty easy to find, though. In any case, Pohlad didn't own any banks until about 1950, when he was part of a group of investors which purchased the parent company of Marquette Bank. Pohlad eventually became the president of Marquette in 1955. Eventually, in 1982, Marquette acquired a bankrupt Farmers and Mechanics Savings Bank. Basically, the garbage story of Pohlad's origins is probably a mishmash of events crafted into a demon lord origin story.

In 1984 Pohlad acquired a majority ownership interest, but without any team control, in the Minnesota Vikings. That same year, Pohlad also bought the Twins from Calvin Griffith, saving the Twins from moving to Florida in the process, resulting in the 1987 and 1991 World Series Championship teams celebrating in the twin cities. Those championship teams would not have been possible without Pohlad consistently ponying up for middle of the pack payrolls. 1988 (11th), 1989 (8th), 1990 (18), 1991 (16), 1992 (19), 1993 (17), 1994 (21)... this is where baseball financials changed. The cheapskate Pohlad paid or extended or signed big AAV stars in Minnesota including Puckett, Viola, Morris, Hrbek, etc. The Metrodome was an absolutely terrible, horrible, awful baseball stadium. MLB was struggling post 1994 strike, and former Vikings GM Mike Lynn got 10% of all suite generated gross revenue, further insulting the wounds to the Twins' finances. Pohlad lobbied hard for a new stadium where the Twins could be competitive in the new era of baseball financials. The Twins payroll when they ranked #8 in MLB in 1989 was $15.5MM. Rebuffed again and again, MLB and Pohlad were fed up. By 1997, when the North Carolina sale was discussed, it was $25.7MM (23rd) representing a 6.5% cumulative average annual increase, but MLB payrolls had been skyrocketing with some team owners running well into the red as they ran their clubs as a hobby or community service. Pohlad was a businessman and ran the Twins not to lose money. The North Carolina deal was for about $150MM, but it was contingent on factors which were never met, and subject to an MLB owners vote that it likely wouldn't have passed, either. It's tough to say how likely a move would really have been as debates have shot a lot of holes into the potential the move would have ever really been possible.

In regard to the contraction plan, the myths and legends have grown just as famously as Mr. Pohlad's supposed origins. Volunteering to contract the team for $150MM is almost certainly a mixup of the North Carolina deal that fell through. The contraction plan was supposedly for $250MM after 9/11 with baseball reeling, and btw, there were no teams mentioned in the plan. MLB owners approved the contraction plan 28-2 with only the the Twins and Expos owners voting against the plan. There were 4 or 5 teams in the mix for being contracted, but the Twins and Expos were seen as the most likely target to be culled. Again, Pohlad voted against contraction. I'm sure this is just another conspiracy, right...

There is so much misinformation and vitriol in this evil demon lord revisions of Carl Pohlad, it's just crazy. I didn't know the guy, and I didn't consider him a great owner, but man.

Let's not let the facts get in the way of a good conspiracy rant!

[BiggestRoccoFan]

16 hours ago, jkcarew said:

I suggest becoming a Yankee or Dodgers fan.

Instead of being angry EVERY year regarding payroll, you can be angry only on years where you club doesn’t win the WS in dominating fashion.

Doesn’t that sound fun?

I am frustrated by this teams offseason but it's not because the payroll went down. I am frustrated because they just had their best season in 20 years and finally break through and win a playoff series. I know we are good enough to win the division with what we have but we are 1 solid#2 starting pitcher away(IMO) from putting this division away and actually being a WS contender and they have decided to stand pat or even regress a little bit from last year. I bet on sure things and not what if's. Yeah Joe Ryan could be a solid#2 but that is a big what if. We need a durable left handed starter and Jordan Montgomery is sitting right there for the taking. You could prob get him on a 1 year deal. Go freaking get him.

Unlike most of you on this board I am not content with just winning the division. This market is starving for a championship in any of the 4 major sports. 

Let's actually go for it. 

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

I bet on sure things and not what if's

Nothing and no one is a sure thing in this business. So much can happen where you think you have it made and someone gets hurt. But I do get it. We had a successful year, I want to see building on that and it feels like a step backward. However, and I’m still frustrated, I don’t know what truly is what. I’m not a fly on that wall, so I am able to convince myself to temper my frustration, somewhat. But, the Twins could do everything I want, spend what I want, and be really happy going into the season, and still lose. That’s not an excuse not to, just saying nothing is a guarantee. My motto has always been hope for the best, prepare for the worst. It’s much better for my expectations and BP. 

[KBJ1]

Signing a top of the line replacement for Gray was never really in the mix. But they should have jumped on Gurriel instead of Santana & Margot for about the same money. Just my 2 cents.

[Omardog]

AZ Dane gets it right below, the Pohlads pleading poverty is a tired bit of business.  Invest in the darn team NOW when the upside is visible.

[Shaitan]

The term "poverty franchise" feels gross to me. Making light of real poverty.

[August J Gloop]

Why on earth did this end up in an email? Carl and (apparently) Joe are clearly not fans of baseball, but let’s not make it normal to toss around the word poverty in this incorrect context. 

[Johnny Ringo]

Can I politely suggest that if you are this angry before one regular season pitch is thrown that perhaps you aren't a fan of the Twins but a fan of being angry? 

[tony&rodney]

6 hours ago, BiggestRoccoFan said:

Unlike most of you on this board I am not content with just winning the division.

So this statement, considering the hundred or so articles and thousands of comments on Twins Daily specifically egging on the management to go for it all during this offseason, is your massive leap on Leap Year Day? Good play on words. I caught it.

[SwainZag]

6 hours ago, KBJ1 said:

Signing a top of the line replacement for Gray was never really in the mix. But they should have jumped on Gurriel instead of Santana & Margot for about the same money. Just my 2 cents.

Same amount of money in 2024.  Gurriel is owed $41M from 2025-2027.

[arby58]

Some of the worst owners of major league sports franchises are those that treat it like a hobby toy. The Dan Snyders of the world make horrible decisions that they can justify because it's their money that they are losing.  

In baseball, you can pretty well slot teams into categories based on the size of their market and potential revenue. Teams don't get out of their slots all that often, and the Twins have generally aligned with where you would expect them to be. Until baseball imposes a salary cap (maybe never), if you want to pull for the big money spenders, you know where to go. As I have noted before, it doesn't necessarily guarantee success - the three teams with the largest payrolls in MLB last year all missed the play-offs.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

On 2/29/2024 at 10:37 AM, nicksaviking said:

My in laws have been wintering there two years in a row now. Thought I'd get a chance to go down there, but having three school age kids once again makes the Venn Diagram of what's desirable and what's feasible have little overlap.

My two school age kids came with me.

[USAFChief]

On 3/1/2024 at 4:35 PM, arby58 said:

As I have noted before, it doesn't necessarily guarantee success - the three teams with the largest payrolls in MLB last year all missed the play-offs.

But 6 of the top 10 did.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm unhappy with ownership's decision to reduce payroll in the middle of a contention window and I won't tell anyone to feel otherwise.

But if you think the Pohlads are bad when viewed on the scale of baseball ownership, you're not paying attention to the rest of baseball. The Pohlads are entirely adequate owners. I can rattle off a dozen ownership groups that are markedly worse than them.

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

But 6 of the top 10 did.

There were 6 big revenue (large payroll) teams that made the playoff’s and 6 small revenue (lower payroll) teams that made the playoffs.  High revenue NL:  Dodgers / Braves / Phillies  Low revenue: DBacks / Marlins / Brewers

Higher revenue AL:  Astros / Rangers and Blue Jays above average but not top 10.  Low revenue:  Twins / Orioles / Rays

So, stating that 6 high revenue / high payroll teams made the playoffs last year simply ignores the fact that 6 low revenue teams made the playoffs.  That said, an objective view would be that the dominance of the Dodgers / Yankees and Red Sox over the past 20 years is a very strong indication of the advantage of spending.  The only low revenue team to win the WS in the past 15 years is the 2015 KC Royals who literally have the worst win record in the sport and one 90-win season since the turn of the century.   While there is an outlier on occasion like Peter Seidler spending like crazy when he knew his time on earth was limited, teams spend consist with their revenue and the twins are one of them.  So, go ahead and complain that the revenue disparity creates a disadvantage to many teams but complaining that a low revenue team does not spend like a high revenue team simply lacks common sense.   
 

[dxpavelka]

On 2/25/2024 at 4:19 PM, AZDane said:

Family owns team since dinosaur days. . . it's only money comes from the team.
Other family buys team, because they own banks and kind of print money.
New family doesn't like that they don't make enough money from sports, convinces commissioner to make team extinct for a dollar on their dollar investment.
General outcry tanks extinction plan.
Family convinces fans to pay for new facilities to stay competitive.
Their dollar investment is now many dollars.
Family's team breaks through and has best competitive season since last century.
Broadcast deal teeters and doesn't produce as well as before.
Family cuts spending on team to same level as days when they played in old dinosaur stadium and shrugs.
Family still owns banks and treats team as if it MUST be in the black financially every year, regardless of investment etc.

Have I missed much?
Fan since 1979 or so if it matters. . . 
(I'm not expecting the Dodgers here, I just want to see the fake poverty to f%%% off)
 

Pony up.  Buy the team.  W'ed LOVE to see it done right.

[dxpavelka]

On 3/1/2024 at 5:35 PM, arby58 said:

Some of the worst owners of major league sports franchises are those that treat it like a hobby toy. The Dan Snyders of the world make horrible decisions that they can justify because it's their money that they are losing.  

In baseball, you can pretty well slot teams into categories based on the size of their market and potential revenue. Teams don't get out of their slots all that often, and the Twins have generally aligned with where you would expect them to be. Until baseball imposes a salary cap (maybe never), if you want to pull for the big money spenders, you know where to go. As I have noted before, it doesn't necessarily guarantee success - the three teams with the largest payrolls in MLB last year all missed the play-offs.

And it was almost like the Twins spent wisely and DID make the playoffs..

[dxpavelka]

On 2/29/2024 at 11:06 AM, BiggestRoccoFan said:

I am frustrated by this teams offseason but it's not because the payroll went down. I am frustrated because they just had their best season in 20 years and finally break through and win a playoff series. I know we are good enough to win the division with what we have but we are 1 solid#2 starting pitcher away(IMO) from putting this division away and actually being a WS contender and they have decided to stand pat or even regress a little bit from last year. I bet on sure things and not what if's. Yeah Joe Ryan could be a solid#2 but that is a big what if. We need a durable left handed starter and Jordan Montgomery is sitting right there for the taking. You could prob get him on a 1 year deal. Go freaking get him.

Unlike most of you on this board I am not content with just winning the division. This market is starving for a championship in any of the 4 major sports. 

Let's actually go for it. 

Be thankful you're not an Orioles fan.  Your team just had it's best season in 30 years and got SPANKED in the playoffs.  And their payroll is projected to be $30 million LESS than the Twins.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, dxpavelka said:

Be thankful you're not an Orioles fan.  Your team just had it's best season in 30 years and got SPANKED in the playoffs.  And their payroll is projected to be $30 million LESS than the Twins.

 

The Angelos were terrible owners, some of the worst in the sport and that's saying something. Thankfully, they're now gone. 

[arby58]

11 hours ago, USAFChief said:

But 6 of the top 10 did.

This is serious cherry picking. Why did you stop at 10? The answer is because only 6 of the top 15 - those above the league average - made the play-offs. In other words, you had teams with below average payrolls making the play-offs as often as those with above average payrolls. The White Sox were 15th and the Twins 16th, go figure.

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2023/ 

[arby58]

On 2/29/2024 at 11:06 AM, BiggestRoccoFan said:

I am frustrated by this teams offseason but it's not because the payroll went down. I am frustrated because they just had their best season in 20 years and finally break through and win a playoff series. I know we are good enough to win the division with what we have but we are 1 solid#2 starting pitcher away(IMO) from putting this division away and actually being a WS contender and they have decided to stand pat or even regress a little bit from last year. I bet on sure things and not what if's. Yeah Joe Ryan could be a solid#2 but that is a big what if. We need a durable left handed starter and Jordan Montgomery is sitting right there for the taking. You could prob get him on a 1 year deal. Go freaking get him.

Unlike most of you on this board I am not content with just winning the division. This market is starving for a championship in any of the 4 major sports. 

Let's actually go for it. 

So you want them to sign Montgomery, but you aren't frustrated because the payroll went down? How are those compatible?

I also highly doubt that Montgomery is signing a one-year contract with anybody. He may sign a three year deal with player options, but that is not a one-year contract. It is also not going to be for peanuts. 

[USAFChief]

11 hours ago, arby58 said:

This is serious cherry picking. Why did you stop at 10? 

https://www.spotrac.com/mlb/payroll/2023/ 

Heh. 

Why did the poster I responded to stop at 3?

There are numerous studies out there showing a strong correlation between payroll and winning. 

[arby58]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Heh. 

Why did the poster I responded to stop at 3?

There are numerous studies out there showing a strong correlation between payroll and winning. 

It's pretty interesting that the TOP 3 all missed the play-offs. Didn't correlate all that well last year. Diamondbacks in the World Series doesn't sound very convincing for your correlation either. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

7 minutes ago, arby58 said:

It's pretty interesting that the TOP 3 all missed the play-offs. Didn't correlate all that well last year. Diamondbacks in the World Series doesn't sound very convincing for your correlation either. 

Spending money is one way to win. It's not the only way.

But not spending money decreases your options to field a winning team. Overall, spending money increases a team's chance at both the postseason and the World Series. It's not the only way to get there but it's one way to get there. And the more options you have to a path there, the better you'll be in the long run.

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Heh. 

Why did the poster I responded to stop at 3?

There are numerous studies out there showing a strong correlation between payroll and winning. 

You are absolutely right and I don't know why anyone would argue that the ability to spend 2X or 3X the payroll of another team is not a significant advantage.  However, the revenue disparity is not going away anytime soon (or ever).  Therefore, the question we should be asking is what strategies / practices have been most effective at overcoming this disadvantage.  

[Brock Beauchamp]

36 minutes ago, arby58 said:

It's pretty interesting that the TOP 3 all missed the play-offs. Didn't correlate all that well last year. Diamondbacks in the World Series doesn't sound very convincing for your correlation either. 

Also, look at your own argument. Yes, the Diamondbacks made it to the World Series.

But they lost.

And who'd they lose to? One of the most free-spending teams of the past three offseasons.