Buxton: "Pissed" at Twins for No Call-Up Decision in 9/2018

[wabene]

So be people are more sensitive more easily offended than others. There is some drama here but i don't think it has reached the level of when Perkins took it to a grievance. That relationship looked irrevocably damaged to me at the time. How'd that work out? Peaches and cream baby. Perk was able to see his culpability as well as the team's actions. Hopefully Buxton can do the same. Either way if four years from now he is still holding a grudge then there you have it. He would be a great grudge holder and we can only hope he was hitting too! If he has some success with this team during the next four years you would think some warm fuzzies would develop. Even if the relationship does develop favorably during this time he still may want to play for Atlanta. Perk loves Minnesota. Let's say we win the title with him as series MVP and he gets a ticker tape parade and is the darling of the twin cities. Will this still matter then?

[wabene]

They could jyst wait three years then trade him to Toronto that would be funny!

[Vanimal46]

This is what you want?

 

I do not agree with this methodology. This has nothing to do with merit, or achievement. It has to do with the fact that he was a first round pick, was hyped unreasonably, hopes were pinned on him way too soon, reputations of baseball pundits and people in the organization who just can't accept what has happened. And now we have a situation where a young player has a different set of rules than the rest of the young players. Not good at all, in my opinion.

 

This isn't too say he has no chance and cannot turn things around. Then again, seems to me it is just as likely if we give him all the rope in the world he'll be hitting .165 in May. Everything seems to be all about making sure he doesn't feel pressure and that is futile and ridiculous. There is a psychology to the game and especially hitting on the big stage. Some guys, no matter the athletic talent, just cannot do it. Only a small bunch can. If the Twins are going to keep on insisting that his glove is so magical he doesn't need to hit his weight then they are digging themselves a big hole.

 

I want players making it based on merit. We are not talking about a veteran player or some guy who is established. We are talking about a guy who has been very shaky for most ot his four years with the team, Two months of good hitting in 2017 is all we have to hang our hats on so no way would have made a statement saying the job was his. No matter how mad he gets I would have not said a word about roster stuff. Let him get mad at himself. That is what I would rather see. Rather than that he got mad at the organization. While I get that, I expect him to look in the mirror and be more accountable if he is going to start pointing fingers. He needs to start with himself and I have not seen that from him

What's your plan? You've said no to aging FAs on the decline. What's left internally besides Buxton?

[USAFChief]

 

This is what you want?

 

I do not agree with this methodology.  This has nothing to do with merit, or achievement.  It has to do with the fact that he was a first round pick, was hyped unreasonably, hopes were pinned on him way too soon, reputations of baseball pundits and people in the organization who just can't accept what has happened.  And now we have a situation where a young player has a different set of rules than the rest of the young players.  Not good at all, in my opinion.

 

This isn't too say he has no chance and cannot turn things around.  Then again, seems to me it is just as likely if we give him all the rope in the world he'll be hitting .165 in May.  Everything seems to be all about making sure he doesn't feel pressure and that is futile and ridiculous.  There is a psychology to the game and especially hitting on the big stage.  Some guys, no matter the athletic talent, just cannot do it.  Only a small bunch can.  If the Twins are going to keep on insisting that his glove is so magical he doesn't need to hit his weight then they are digging themselves a big hole.

 

I want players making it based on merit.  We are not talking about a veteran player or some guy who is established.  We are talking about a guy who has been very shaky for most ot his four years with the team,  Two months of good hitting in 2017 is all we have to hang our hats on so no way would have made a statement saying the job was his.  No matter how mad he gets I would have not said a word about roster stuff.  Let him get mad at himself.  That is what I would rather see.  Rather than that he got mad at the organization.  While I get that, I expect him to look in the mirror and be more accountable if he is going to start pointing fingers.  He needs to start with himself and I have not seen that from him

Unless there's an injury, Buxton gets the first six weeks, every day, in CF. Maybe the first two months. 

 

At that point, if he's putting up a sub-.600 OPS, fine. Give something else a try. 

 

 

 

 

[David HK]

Who is he kidding? To promote Bux, we would have had to forgo that long look at Johnny Field, and maybe even the Taylor Motter Experience. Just like that crappy Astrudillio, or whatever (channeling Bert). He could have cost us months of seeing Bobby Wilson.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Becoming a good or very good Major League baseball player is a long process, which clearly differs from player to player. If you look at Hicks, you can see the almost linear progression of his career: play at a level, perform at a pretty mediocre level, repeat the level, perform at a high level, get promoted, perform poorly, repeat. He was moved up slowly, getting to the bigs by 23. He didn’t do well in the majors at first, as we all remember. And it took him longer to adjust in the majors than at any other level. But he now seems to have arrived, putting up the numbers that were there from his minor league track record.

 

Buxton has not had nearly such a linear path. Yet as a top pick and a top prospect, he was promoted aggressively, getting to the show when he was 21. Even with the quick promotions, he posted an .874 OPS for his minor league career over 1600 PAs, with the most ABs at AAA posting .901. In the majors, he has accumulated 1000 PAs and OPSed .674. To me, he has earned the chance to play every day in the majors, and we should look for progress from him this year, not a finished product. He won’t OPS .874 this year, but topping .750 would be a great step towards achieving his potential. When he puts it all together with the bat, we can expect him to post seasons topping 800 OPS. Combined with his all-world defense, that is going to generate all star nods and MVP votes.

 

He needs to be in CF all year this year. That isn’t rewarding him unjustly, that is part of the process.

[Craig Arko]

I'd be more concerned if Buxton was not unhappy about this. Or if he said nothing.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

As a fan, I'd want them to say he's the starting CF to start the year. The next two years rest on him and Sano. What do people want them to say? Because saying he has to earn it is not reality. Everyone knows he's the plan. Everyone.

 

As a fan, I hope they have a good fall back plan in place. He's got an option left and they should not be afraid to use it. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

See, this is my problem though, people want to cherry pick segments of his time to make him look better.  And they also like to use the whole sample to make him look better.  The truth is that the Twins have invested 600 PAs in him in which he was a really awful player. 

 

Now, I admit my way of breaking it down has limitations too, but the point is a valid one IMO: he has been mostly bad in his time with the big league club.  Most of the games we have penciled him in he has been well below average.  He's just had some absolutely amazing stretches that have helped make the bottom line look a little better.  

Another thing: it seems like this analysis is weighted a lot toward his early career performance. Not trying to cherry-pick (any more than isolating PA from sub-.600 OPS months is cherry-picking), but from his debut in June 2015 through the day he was optioned in early August 2016, Buxton had a .567 OPS, 48 wRC+, in 356 PA. Virtually 100% of his PAs in this time meet your "awful" sub-.600 monthly standard (his best month was a .611 OPS in 66 PA) -- he was never an acceptable MLB hitter, at any point, through August 2016.

 

Since then, he's had 718 PA of .725 OPS, 90 wRC+ hitting, with only 37% of his PAs coming in "awful" months. And that's including his terrible 2018 numbers. Now, maybe 2018 was doomed to drag that down further had he played more, but to be fair he never really got a chance to show us either way -- only 26 MLB starts, the last 15 of which were played on an unhealed broken toe with zero rehab games.

 

He's still streaky and nowhere near his purported offensive ceiling (and health is a massive issue too), but it's possible he reached a more tolerable level of streakiness once he got his first taste of MLB hitting success in September 2016. In which case, I don't like invoking his early-career PA to help justify the Twins' September 2018 decision, any more than I would like using Miguel Sano's successful 2015 PA to help justify keeping him in the majors while struggling in 2018.

[Dman]

 

As a fan, I'd want them to say he's the starting CF to start the year. The next two years rest on him and Sano. What do people want them to say? Because saying he has to earn it is not reality. Everyone knows he's the plan. Everyone.

 

Mike, I agree,  Is this team about trying to develop superstars or Average players.  Buxton already gives us Super Star defense. He is the fastest player in baseball and  has already mastered AAA.  We simply have to play him at the MLB level so he can figure things out.  That might hurt for a while but if he figures it out you have a Super Star player.  

 

The plan has to be give Sano and Buxton the chance to develop their incredibly high ceilings.  There really is no turning back at this point. If they fail to develop the Twins fail and they will have to wait for wave two.

 

I see the plan this year as develop (Do)  or die trying.  If they develop then this team will be pretty exciting with a bright future ahead. If they don't it is going to hurt but will have to move on.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Sure, so far his performance mirrors that of Hicks.  And we can hope that continues, but if it doesn't he will be Billy Hamilton.  In other words, a player who does provide defensive value and speed, but who just can't make enough contact to be anything other than a marginal big leaguer at best.  

A couple things: Billy Hamilton's offensive issues go beyond contact -- namely, zero power, ever.

 

Also, how are you defining "marginal big leaguer"? FWIW, Hamilton has averaged 1.6 bWAR, 1.9 fWAR the past 5 seasons. By Fangraphs, he's never been below 1.2. Even without much contact and zero power. There are plenty of starters that register in that annual WAR range.

 

Give that player even league-average power, as Buxton recorded (albeit inconsistently) over 832 PA in 2016-2017, and he's solidly average or better. (Buxton had a higher K rate too, which is why his offense graded out a bit below average in 2016-2017, but not as low as Hamilton's.)

 

Obviously if Buxton repeats his 2018 offensive performance in perpetuity, he's even worse than Hamilton. But he can afford a month or two of hitting like that per season and still be an average or better starter overall. Might still be a frustrating outcome at times but not necessarily a bad one.

[TheLeviathan]

 

He's still streaky and nowhere near his purported offensive ceiling (and health is a massive issue too), but it's possible he reached a more tolerable level of streakiness once he got his first taste of MLB hitting success in September 2016. In which case, I don't like invoking his early-career PA to help justify the Twins' September 2018 decision, any more than I would like using Miguel Sano's successful 2015 PA to help justify keeping him in the majors while struggling in 2018.

 

Now you're cherry picking how you use initial success.  Implied in your dismissal of his awful beginning to his career is the assumption that those PAs don't matter because he's new and learning.  Yet for Sano, they were absolutely brilliant.  So.....they do matter.  Being new and learning isn't a justification to remove those ABs from consideration. 

 

And once again we're talking about the hopeful and possible.  I'm talking cold, hard facts about what he has been so far.  You want to talk hope about the future?  Fine.  I share it.  I think there are good things to see.  I think he can still put 2018 behind him and look to 2017, but what prompted my rebuttals to you and gunnathor were arguments about what he has been that don't hold water.

 

So I'm going to make this clear again because you are attempting to side-step my point while presenting what appears to be an argument against it.  I am talking about who Byron Buxton has been as a baseball player for the Minnesota Twins so far.  Not what he was for 17 games in AAA, or 30 games in September of 2017, or any other arbitrary number.  

 

The overwhelming majority of time Byron Buxton has been a Twin he has been a dreadful offensive player.  He's had a few stretches of being ok and a few stretches where he looked like Babe Ruth.  But when you look too far above the data at averages you lose sight of just how frequently he's been really, really bad.

 

I hope that changes, (I believe it will!) but them's the facts.  No more pig lipstick.  We can talk about Buxton's future without it.

[Riverbrian]

 

 

 

He's still streaky and nowhere near his purported offensive ceiling (and health is a massive issue too), but it's possible he reached a more tolerable level of streakiness once he got his first taste of MLB hitting success in September 2016. In which case, I don't like invoking his early-career PA to help justify the Twins' September 2018 decision, any more than I would like using Miguel Sano's successful 2015 PA to help justify keeping him in the majors while struggling in 2018.

 

I agree with what you are saying here. Invoking his early-career PA as justification for the September 2018 should not be a consideration... However... It is. 

 

The clock was ticking during this early-career time which led to having to make a service time decision at the edge of it. 

 

Because of this fact... I think his early-career calculations must be considered a factor and can't brushed aside. 

 

You've been right all along... If the Twins would have let him Play in September and simply held him in Rochester to start 2019 for the month of April as you previously suggested. It wouldn't have been as noisy.

 

MLR was also right... if the Twins would have used Rochester more frequently during those early career struggles... the arb wall could have been avoided and it would have been a lot less noisy. 

 

The Twins handling of Buxton is clearly questionable on all fronts but in the end... I don't care. I want the year of service time and the ball is now in his court. 

 

 

[ewen21]

Seems to me Buxton get rattled easily and the Twins know this so they try to praise him at every turn.  Torii has gone out of his way to assume a mentor role.  James Rowson said, "over my dead body" when he asked about a possible demotion.  Molitor insisted that even if he hit .100 his defense was so valuable that his offense didn't much matter.  People in the press and on blogs and chatrooms all over the place seemed to coo endlessly about his athletic gifts.  This guy had gotten nothing but praise, praise, praise until he showed everyone he was not a major league bat.  He does horribly when the season opens:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/split_stats.cgi?full=1&params=month%7CApril%2FMarch%7Cbuxtoby01%7Cbat%7CAB%7C

Why is that?  It's as though he psyches himself out to the point where he can't settle down enough to hit.  The Twins have been very patient and extremely helpful to him all the way up to last year.  They did a few things wrong, but then again, before he was even injured he was well on his way to another atrocious April.

 

And then there is his penchant for running into walls.  Articles have been written centered around this and in one he was quoted as saying, "the wall is my friend" in jest.  At no point did anyone in the Twins organization have any success getting him to get this under control.  He is just going to run full speed into walls because that's what he does?  When he went after Cruz's line shot to CF he had literally no shot at all to catch that ball but he made an insane attempt and got hurt for his troubles.  If he were not so hung up on trying to make the impossible catch maybe he'd not get injured so much.  No one in the Twins organization seems to want to address this concern   Staying on the field is part of the issue with him and it will remain an issue, that much is clear, with the migraines and his penchant for (sometimes) unnecessary acrobatics.

 

I am highly concerned about his development.  He doesn't seem to be interested in changing much and it's almost as though he has this mistaken notion that being an acrobat in the field and making the ocassional circus catch is all he needs to do to stick.  Would anyone be surprised if he got injured trying to make a diving catch during ST?  What then?  Do we write off another year and say, "if only he were healthy"???

 

This is way more about Buxton than it is the Twins, in my opinion.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Now you're cherry picking how you use initial success.  Implied in your dismissal of his awful beginning to his career is the assumption that those PAs don't matter because he's new and learning.  Yet for Sano, they were absolutely brilliant.  So.....they do matter.  Being new and learning isn't a justification to remove those ABs from consideration. 

But, consideration for what? Obviously, those 2015-2016 stats are part of the statistical ledger, you'd use them in an arbitration hearing, all of that. Just in the context of making a decision about Byron Buxton on Sep. 1st, 2018, I don't like the idea of saying you're denying him a call-up because he's been a awful MLB hitter for X% of his PAs when, while true, most of those awful PAs were concentrated in his debut 2-3 years earlier. And he's only ~40 healthy PAs removed from his most successful stretch in MLB. (Likewise, by mid-2018 Sano was very far removed from his 2015 success, and was even quite a bit removed from his early 2017 success.)

 

The Sep. 1st decision will come down to a judgement call regardless, so neither of us is right or wrong here. Just sharing my perspective which was a little different than yours. Personally, I would have rather seen them call up Buxton on Sep. 1st, 2018, but then plan to option him to open 2019. Maximizes his at-bats, and forces us to come up with a viable alternative plan too.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Some players are above the fray. 

So much so that he received the most special treatment of all, service time manipulation.....

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I agree with what you are saying here. Invoking his early-career PA as justification for the September 2018 should not be a consideration... However... It is. 

 

The clock was ticking during this early-career time which led to having to make a service time decision at the edge of it. 

 

Because of this fact... I think his early-career calculations must be considered a factor and can't brushed aside. 

 

You've been right all along... If the Twins would have let him Play in September and simply held him in Rochester to start 2019 for the month of April as you previously suggested. It wouldn't have been as noisy.

 

MLR was also right... if the Twins would have used Rochester more frequently during those early career struggles... the arb wall could have been avoided and it would have been a lot less noisy. 

 

The Twins handling of Buxton is clearly questionable on all fronts but in the end... I don't care. I want the year of service time and the ball is now in his court. 

 

This is a fair take.

 

To me, the Sep. 1st, 2018 decision seemed too punitive. A demotion to AAA or the bench is one thing, but sending a guy home when there's games to be played and no roster limits... especially when that guy has been your opening day starter for 3 years now and has only had ~40 healthy MLB at-bats all year... I don't like it. Yeah, it's allowed in the rules of the CBA, but it still seems punitive compared to the alternatives.

 

Buxton's had a rough, up-and-down career for sure, but nothing in it says to me that he deserved that punitive measure. He may not have deserved the opening day job in 2019, though.

[TheLeviathan]

 

But, consideration for what? Obviously, those 2015-2016 stats are part of the statistical ledger, you'd use them in an arbitration hearing, all of that. Just in the context of making a decision about Byron Buxton on Sep. 1st, 2018, 

 

I wasn't really making my arguments relative to that.  I can see both sides of that decision and I'd lean to agreeing with the Twins on their approach.   I would agree with you that it should not be a punitive measure.  That would've been the wrong reason for this.  To me, this is a motivational tactic.

 

My point was that I keep seeing posters here (Nick did it in a blog a few weeks back, gunnathor here, some of your points) try too hard to repaint the past with Buxton.  Everything is done to shed the most positive possible light on his career so far and spin it that way.  I've taken nothing away from Buxton in my points - when he has been good, he has been damn good.  Carried us to the playoffs once.  But on the whole, the bad has far outweighed the good.  

 

Spin to the contrary annoys me.  I just don't think that's accurate or necessary.  Buxton has mostly been an awful baseball player, but that doesn't change my desire to see him a Twin and succeed.  And it need not for anyone else either.

[Mike Sixel]

As a fan, I hope they have a good fall back plan in place. He's got an option left and they should not be afraid to use it.

Agreed. But those are two different things.

[Riverbrian]

This is a fair take.

 

To me, the Sep. 1st, 2018 decision seemed too punitive. A demotion to AAA or the bench is one thing, but sending a guy home when there's games to be played and no roster limits... especially when that guy has been your opening day starter for 3 years now and has only had ~40 healthy MLB at-bats all year... I don't like it. Yeah, it's allowed in the rules of the CBA, but it still seems punitive compared to the alternatives.

 

Buxton's had a rough, up-and-down career for sure, but nothing in it says to me that he deserved that punitive measure. He may not have deserved the opening day job in 2019, though.

Agreed

 

However from my fans chair. Woo Hoo we got an extra year!

 

The CBA practically demands this sort of thing with only a flimsy good faith clause that can’t stand up to a bad year.

 

At the end of the day. I really am on the players side. The next CBA needs to give them more control over their prime earning years but their union rep agreed to these terms so from my chair as a fan. Woo Hoo we got the extra year.

[ewen21]

I said praise, praise, praise UNTIL he showed he wasn't a major league bat. The gloves came off last year KirbyDome. That was the first time he ever got any negative feedback from the Twins. Life happens. The ball is in his court. Hit or don't hit

[Otto von Ballpark]

However from my fans chair. Woo Hoo we got an extra year!

 

In a vacuum, I prefer the extra year too over not having the extra year.

 

But in practice, I'd prefer if they didn't rush him back from the broken toe, instead of the extra year. I'd also prefer if they actually arranged a viable alternative for the position going into 2019, in case Buxton doesn't work out, over securing the extra year in Sep. 2018.

 

For that matter, just speaking generally, I wish they were making moves to really improve the team, both short and long term, over just securing a speculative extra year of control of an existing asset at their earliest convenience.

 

It's hard to get too excited or give them much credit just for securing the extra year of control.

[Riverbrian]

 

In a vacuum, I prefer the extra year too over not having the extra year.

But in practice, I'd prefer if they didn't rush him back from the broken toe, instead of the extra year. I'd also prefer if they actually arranged a viable alternative for the position going into 2019, in case Buxton doesn't work out, over securing the extra year in Sep. 2018.

For that matter, just speaking generally, I wish they were making moves to really improve the team, both short and long term, over just securing a speculative extra year of control of an existing asset at their earliest convenience.

It's hard to get too excited or give them much credit just for securing the extra year of control.

 

Lot's of wishes you have. You must have to pause a real long time while everybody waits for you to blow out the candles. 

[Don Walcott]

 

Agreed

However from my fans chair. Woo Hoo we got an extra year!

The CBA practically demands this sort of thing with only a flimsy good faith clause that can’t stand up to a bad year.

At the end of the day. I really am on the players side. The next CBA needs to give them more control over their prime earning years but their union rep agreed to these terms so from my chair as a fan. Woo Hoo we got the extra year.

Riverbrian, I really enjoyed your Game Threads, and I respect the opinions you voice on this site. YOu are very smart and thoughtful about your opinions. However, I can't count how many times you've said you are on the players' side, yet you condone the behavior of the Twins FO depriving a player of being one year closer to free agency. I have no problem with you having the opinion that the FO should screw over Byron Buxton -- though I vehemently disagree with that position. However, you really need to stop saying you are on the players' side when you take this position. Clearly, you are not on the players' side. And, at a minimum, you're not on Buxton's side.

 

Imagine if your boss just screwed you out of a pay raise. Now imagine if you told your friends about it at the bar, and one of them said, "I completely agree with that decision as it helps the business and is ultimately good for our town." And then, when you point out that it hits your pocket book, your friend says, "I'm totally for you. I wish the system were different. But the way things are, they had a right to screw you over. And I'm in favor of screwing you over for the good of this town. However, I'm also in favor of the workers. It's just that the way the laws are now, screwing you helps the rest of us in this town."

 

Would you consider your friend to be in favor of the workers? Or is he just being a hypocrite?

 

Again, I have no problem with you taking the position that the FO had every right to screw over Byron Buxton by delaying his free agency pay day by a year. It's anyone's right to take that position. But I do have a problem with you continuing to take that position with the caveat that you are on the side of the worker. Because you clearly are not.

[Major League Ready]

It’s hard not to see both sides of this argument with even a minimum of objectivity. With the preface that hindsight is always 20/20, the Twins did not handle him or his service time well. He would not have had enough service time to make last September’s service time critical had they handled him properly. However, to put the blame purely on one side or the other is not very objective IMO. The team handles this poorly but Buxton’s performance warranted being sent to the minors before he was actually sent. Buxton should recognize that the fact the service time was so close was because the Twins stuck with him longer than probably should have.

 

Is this situation all that different from any great prospect that was not called up? I mean, Glad Jr. did not get called up. If we polled baseball writers, which player would get voted most likely to succeed? The fact that Buxton has major league service time does not negate the fact that his ability to hit at the ML level is very much in question, perhaps more so than when he actually first came up.

[jorgenswest]

Did the negotiations for an extension last winter leave the Twins believing that Buxton and agent had no interest in a deal? Should that matter?

 

If the agent showed no interest in talking last winter, the Twins options didn’t look very good. Call him up to keep peace and lose the potential of a 4 WAR year down the road. Keep him down and damage their relationship with not only Buxton but also the fan base.

 

This was a no win situation for the front office. In retrospect I think they made the tougher call. It would have been easier for them to keep the peace now. Instead they bought 2022 Buxton even though they may not be around to see any fruits of the decision.

[Riverbrian]

 

Riverbrian, I really enjoyed your Game Threads, and I respect the opinions you voice on this site. YOu are very smart and thoughtful about your opinions. However, I can't count how many times you've said you are on the players' side, yet you condone the behavior of the Twins FO depriving a player of being one year closer to free agency. I have no problem with you having the opinion that the FO should screw over Byron Buxton -- though I vehemently disagree with that position. However, you really need to stop saying you are on the players' side when you take this position. Clearly, you are not on the players' side. And, at a minimum, you're not on Buxton's side.

 

Imagine if your boss just screwed you out of a pay raise. Now imagine if you told your friends about it at the bar, and one of them said, "I completely agree with that decision as it helps the business and is ultimately good for our town." And then, when you point out that it hits your pocket book, your friend says, "I'm totally for you. I wish the system were different. But the way things are, they had a right to screw you over. And I'm in favor of screwing you over for the good of this town. However, I'm also in favor of the workers. It's just that the way the laws are now, screwing you helps the rest of us in this town."

 

Would you consider your friend to be in favor of the workers? Or is he just being a hypocrite?

 

Again, I have no problem with you taking the position that the FO had every right to screw over Byron Buxton by delaying his free agency pay day by a year. It's anyone's right to take that position. But I do have a problem with you continuing to take that position with the caveat that you are on the side of the worker. Because you clearly are not.

 

Thanks for the kind words, apart from being called a hypocrite, I appreciate it. 

 

My stance is easily explained. It isn't hypocritical, it's consistent.  

 

I'm for me first.

 

I know that Byron Buxton is going to be alright if he hits the ball and if he hits the ball, I... for my sake, (as a lifelong fan of the Minnesota Twins) want him to hit the ball for MY TEAM and not some other team.

 

When people say that any thought of an extension is gone, it doesn't concern me in the slightest because I grew up a Minnesota Twins fan and know what happens in the free agent market from a Minnesota lens. Extension? he's not from Maple Grove, if he turns into the Buxton they all say he could be, his agent will not let him sign an extension, even if he wanted to. This is something we should all understand by now and not let it confuse our emotions. Joe Mauer the hometown hero cost us 23 million for 8 years at a time when 23 million was rare air. The days of Kirby Puckett are gone. 

 

So please understand that the years of control are highly highly highly highly likely, the end of his time with us even if we kissed his (you know what) every waking second of the day. So... Woo Hoo, we just got an extra year... (High Five). 

 

I'm no hypocrite, I readily lay myself in front of all and say... I want the extra year FOR ME... I simply don't have the strength nor inclination to be indignant about the how, especially when I consider that his fall from grace is around 1.2 million from the arbitrator. He's gonna be Ok. 

 

I'm for me... I'm a fan... the players and the owners routinely screw us all the time from the price of a Tony O Cuban Sandwich to pulling into second base when a triple was completely possible during a routine game in June.

 

The service time game has been going on for quite some time and I'm already numb to the discussion and let me state without confusion. The only difference between Bryant, Acuna and Buxton was the timing, I'm not going to get worked up over timing. We all understand, the reasoning and end goal for all 3 of them.

 

I'm no hypocrite, I've stood tall and said... I want the year back.  Unvarnished and straight to the point.  

 

 

As for my seemingly conflicted viewpoints of casual mentions of being on the players side while the applauding the mugging of Byron Buxton. 

 

It's really not hard to understand.

 

I believe the owner's have a clear advantage in the current CBA and when the next CBA negotiation takes place... I'll be wearing my MLBPA hat and cheering the players on. However... let's be clear that it's going to be ugly and I'll be surprised if there isn't a stoppage of sorts. And the stoppage will be another screw the fan example that can be added to the list of Tony O Cuban Sandwich prices and players not legging out a triple in June. 

 

Just to confuse you a little bit... My main issue with the CBA is the service time rules. 

 

But Riverbrian, how can you be against the Service Time Rules as they stand, against the owners and for Byron Buxton not getting called up and publicly applaud the extra year of control gained? 

 

Simple... I've covered it's in MY best interest.

 

Now toss this in. I do not want my team operating under a self-imposed competitive disadvantage. 

 

Meaning: The CBA is a negotiated AGREEMENT between two parties. The agreement sets the rules of operation that everybody works under, until they reach a different agreement, these are the rules that everyone must follow, much like a walk after 4 balls out of the strike zone is a rule of operation.

 

I do not expect my team to handicap themselves against their competition by taking a walk at 5 balls on purpose. The CBA basically forces any GM with a brain to manipulate service time under the rules and it has therefore become routine and systemic.

 

There are only two things that prevent a full scale service time shoving down the throats of the players union. 

 

1. The actual desire to win baseball games and therefore roster the best players you have. (Which is challenged more and more every time a team goes into full scale rebuild). 

2. A flimsy toothless good faith mention that gets blown to pieces by the simple explanation that a player needed 17 days of defensive work before being called to the majors but is just strong enough to keep JT Realmuto up in the majors despite the Marlins being out of contention in June. 

 

Let's be perfectly clear, the only difference between Kris Bryant, Ronald Acuna and Byron Buxton is timing, I'm not going to lose my mind over timing or clumsiness because the end result is the same. These were all service time decisions that gain the club an extra year of control.  

 

All teams are making service time decisions like these and my team better not put themselves at a self imposed competitive disadvantage when everybody is working off the same agreed upon rules.

 

And one last thing... The players are not Angels either and nobody should ever lose sight of that FACT. 

 

The true victims in baseball are the minor league guys who are never going to make it. Both the OWNERS and the PLAYERS could do something for them in the CBA but, the minor league players are without representation so they work for poverty wages. At least until they can land on a major league roster spot but that can't happen because Byron Buxton is taking that roster spot while wasting 3 years of service time, being given chance after chance to prove himself. 

 

A player is drafted and can be held until the age of 32 which basically means that a club can squeeze the life out of any player it chooses, leaving the player holding the remains of his value when he reaches free market. This is a player disadvantage but they negotiated that disadvantage so...  

 

Buxton is upset that he lost a year of service time after hitting .156. Look behind you Byron... Look Behind you. There is carnage all over the highways behind you and the ones who are surviving that carnage are coming fast to take your job. I'd quickly forget about this service time nonsense and focus on fixing that .156 PRONTO. And the rest will take care of itself.

 

These are big boys making millions across the table from each other. This is not the fulfillment associate at Amazon who was fired because she only packs 115 items per hour with a quota of 120. 

 

Buxton needs to hit... If not for you... then for me but more importantly for himself. Because if he doesn't stop missing those sliders by a foot or two. His FA experience will be a minor league contract.   

 

[Don Walcott]

 

Thanks for the kind words, apart from being called a hypocrite, I appreciate it. 

 

My stance is easily explained. It isn't hypocritical, it's consistent.  

 

I'm for me first.

 

I know that Byron Buxton is going to be alright if he hits the ball and if he hits the ball, I... for my sake, (as a lifelong fan of the Minnesota Twins) want him to hit the ball for MY TEAM and not some other team.

 

When people say that any thought of an extension is gone, it doesn't concern me in the slightest because I grew up a Minnesota Twins fan and know what happens in the free agent market from a Minnesota lens. Extension? he's not from Maple Grove, if he turns into the Buxton they all say he could be, his agent will not let him sign an extension, even if he wanted to. This is something we should all understand by now and not let confuse our emotions. Joe Mauer the hometown hero cost us 23 million for 8 years at a time when 23 million was rare air. The days of Kirby Puckett are gone. 

 

So please understand that the years of control are highly highly highly highly likely, the end of his time with us even if we kissed his (you know what) every waking second of the day. So... Woo Hoo, we just got an extra year... (High Five). 

 

I'm no hypocrite, I readily lay myself in front of all and say... I want the extra year FOR ME... I simply don't have the strength nor inclination to be indignant about the how, especially when I consider that his fall from grace is around 1.2 million from the arbitrator. He's gonna be Ok. 

 

I'm for me... I'm a fan... the players and the owners routinely screw us all the time from the price of a Tony O Cuban Sandwich to pulling into second base when a triple was completely possible during a routine game in June.

 

The service time game has been going on for quite some time and I'm already numb to the discussion and let me state without confusion. The only difference between Bryant, Acuna and Buxton was the timing, I'm not going to get worked up over timing. We all understand, the reasoning and end goal for all 3 of them.

 

I'm no hypocrite, I've stood tall and said... I want the year back.  Unvarnished and straight to the point.  

 

 

As for my seemingly conflicted viewpoints of casual mentions of being on the players side while the applauding the mugging of Byron Buxton. 

 

It's really not hard to understand.

 

I believe the owner's have a clear advantage in the current CBA and when the next CBA negotiation takes place... I'll be wearing my MLBPA hat and cheering the players on. However... let's be clear that it's going to be ugly and I'll be surprised if there isn't a stoppage of sorts. And the stoppage will be another screw the fan example that can be added to the list of Tony O Cuban Sandwich prices and players not legging out a triple in June. 

 

Just to confuse you a little bit... My main issue with the CBA is the service time rules. 

 

But Riverbrian, how can you be against the Service Time Rules as they stand, against the owners and for Byron Buxton not getting called up and publicly applaud the extra year of control gained? 

 

Simple... I've covered it's in MY best interest.

 

Now toss this in. I do not want my team operating under a self-imposed competitive disadvantage. 

 

Meaning: The CBA is a negotiated AGREEMENT between two parties. The agreement sets the rules of operation that everybody works under, until they reach a different agreement, these are the rules that everyone must follow, much like a walk after 4 balls out of the strike zone is a rule of operation.

 

I do not expect my team to handicap themselves against their competition by taking a walk at 5 balls on purpose. The CBA basically forces any GM with a brain to manipulate service time under the rules and it has therefore become routine and systemic.

 

There are only two things that prevent a full scale service time shoving down the throats of the players union. 

 

1. The actual desire to win baseball games and therefore roster the best players you have. (Which is challenged more and more every time a team goes into full scale rebuild). 

2. A flimsy toothless good faith mention that gets blown to pieces by the simple explanation that a player needed 17 days of defensive work before being called to the majors but is just strong enough to keep JT Realmuto up in the majors despite the Marlins being out of contention in June. 

 

Let's be perfectly clear, the only difference between Kris Bryant, Ronald Acuna and Byron Buxton is timing, I'm not going to lose my mind over timing or clumsiness because the end result is the same. These were all service time decisions that gain the club an extra year of control.  

 

All teams are making service time decisions like these and my team better not put themselves at a self imposed competitive disadvantage when everybody is working off the same agreed upon rules.

 

And one last thing... The players are not Angels either and nobody should ever lose sight of that FACT. 

 

The true victims in baseball are the minor league guys who are never going to make it. Both the OWNERS and the PLAYERS could do something for them in the CBA but, the minor league players are without representation so they work for poverty wages. At least until they can land on a major league roster spot but that can't happen because Byron Buxton is taking that roster spot while wasting 3 years of service time, being given chance after chance to prove himself. 

 

A player is drafted and can be held until the age of 32 which basically means that a club can squeeze the life out of any player it chooses, leaving the player holding the remains of his value when he reaches free market. This is a player disadvantage but they negotiated that disadvantage so...  

 

Buxton is upset that he lost a year of service time after hitting .156. Look behind you Byron... Look Behind you. There is carnage all over the highways behind you and the ones who are surviving that carnage are coming fast to take your job. I'd quickly forget about this service time nonsense and focus on fixing that .156 PRONTO. And the rest will take care of itself.

 

These are big boys making millions across the table from each other. This is not the fulfillment associate at Amazon who was fired because she only packs 115 items per hour with a quota of 120. 

 

Buxton needs to hit... If not for you... then for me but more importantly for himself. Because if he doesn't stop missing those sliders by a foot or two. His FA experience will be a minor league contract.   

 

You have been very consistent in these opinions. And you're not a hypocrite. Sorry that my post came off that way.

 

I respect your opinions, though I disagree with some of them. My only point in the last point is that you really should stop saying that you're for the players when you're not. I think much of what you say above shows this to be the case. You're for YOU, and YOU want another year of Buxton, even if that costs Buxton a lot of money. And you also believe that it won't hurt Buxton that much because he and other baseball players make a lot of money anyway. And you have often pointed out that they had their opportunity to negotiate with the owners and allowed this kind of thing to happen to themselves. All of this has been your consistent opinion. And that opinion is not on the side of the players, no matter how many times you say it. That's my point.

 

Just so you know I'm consistent, years ago I posted here about Kris Bryant getting screwed over. Now, apparently, he's not willing to give the Cubs a pass on that, nor should he. Given his ability, popularity and marketability, I think the Cubs made a mistake, just like I think the Twins made a mistake with Buxton. Obviously, we'll never know for sure, as that alternate reality door has been closed.

 

I agree with your point about minor leaguers not being paid enough as well. But I don't think anyone here is a "victim". Everyone has the opportunity to choose their career path. And part of that choice is taking a gamble on yourself that you'll make the big leagues and cash in. After all, the reason MLB makes the big bucks is because we pay to watch the players. And Byron Buxton, in my opinion, is among the top three reasons I want to watch the Twins. When healthy, he's among the best outfielders I've ever seen. When healthy, he's basically unstoppable on the base paths stealing bases. When healthy he's one of the few players who can turn a single into a double, go first to home on a single and break records legging out triples and inside-the-park home runs. If there's a minor leaguer who can do what Buxton does to entertain fans and win games, that guy deserves a lot of money too.

 

I'm looking forward to watching a healthy Byron Buxton in 2019, and I'll bet his teammates -- particularly the fly ball pitchers -- are looking forward to playing with him. Especially in an era of launch angles and infield shifts, that outfield defense has become more and more important. And I expect the Twins defense will improve significantly with him in center. I'm not worried about his hitting numbers from 2018. It was a lost season due to injuries. I'm expecting 2017 Buxton in 2019, and that guy will likely be an All-Star and get MVP votes. I'll be rooting for him and the Twins regardless of what I think of the front office and the owners.

[Riverbrian]

 

You have been very consistent in these opinions. And you're not a hypocrite. Sorry that my post came off that way.

 

I respect your opinions, though I disagree with some of them. My only point in the last point is that you really should stop saying that you're for the players when you're not. I think much of what you say above shows this to be the case. You're for YOU, and YOU want another year of Buxton, even if that costs Buxton a lot of money. And you also believe that it won't hurt Buxton that much because he and other baseball players make a lot of money anyway. And you have often pointed out that they had their opportunity to negotiate with the owners and allowed this kind of thing to happen to themselves. All of this has been your consistent opinion. And that opinion is not on the side of the players, no matter how many times you say it. That's my point.

 

Just so you know I'm consistent, years ago I posted here about Kris Bryant getting screwed over. Now, apparently, he's not willing to give the Cubs a pass on that, nor should he. Given his ability, popularity and marketability, I think the Cubs made a mistake, just like I think the Twins made a mistake with Buxton. Obviously, we'll never know for sure, as that alternate reality door has been closed.

 

I agree with your point about minor leaguers not being paid enough as well. But I don't think anyone here is a "victim". Everyone has the opportunity to choose their career path. And part of that choice is taking a gamble on yourself that you'll make the big leagues and cash in. After all, the reason MLB makes the big bucks is because we pay to watch the players. And Byron Buxton, in my opinion, is among the top three reasons I want to watch the Twins. When healthy, he's among the best outfielders I've ever seen. When healthy, he's basically unstoppable on the base paths stealing bases. When healthy he's one of the few players who can turn a single into a double, go first to home on a single and break records legging out triples and inside-the-park home runs. If there's a minor leaguer who can do what Buxton does to entertain fans and win games, that guy deserves a lot of money too.

 

I'm looking forward to watching a healthy Byron Buxton in 2019, and I'll bet his teammates -- particularly the fly ball pitchers -- are looking forward to playing with him. Especially in an era of launch angles and infield shifts, that outfield defense has become more and more important. And I expect the Twins defense will improve significantly with him in center. I'm not worried about his hitting numbers from 2018. It was a lost season due to injuries. I'm expecting 2017 Buxton in 2019, and that guy will likely be an All-Star and get MVP votes. I'll be rooting for him and the Twins regardless of what I think of the front office and the owners.

 

I don't think we are that far apart. 

 

Other than the level of appreciation toward Byron Buxton's performance thus far. I see the potential like you do and there is no way I toss it out the door for a relief pitcher. But, in my eyes, it has only been glimpses of potential that isn't translated into a stable major league job yet. He still has to prove that he can hit at the major league level consistently. 

 

I believe he can and I believe it will happen with the speed of the light switch because I honestly think he's trying to hit 5 run homers to left on outside sliders and once he stops doing that and just tries to make simple hard contact. He'll start gapping balls and our breath will be taken away. On the scary side though, I believe some players can't change and Byron might be that guy. 

 

As far as our labor discussion.

 

If I was in charge of the MLBPA... I'm calling for an end to the draft. I won't get it but that will start the negotiation off with the tone that it isn't going to be easy and the owners might as well start preparing to give a little bit or a lockout. 

 

 

[ewen21]

 

 

 

I'm looking forward to watching a healthy Byron Buxton in 2019, and I'll bet his teammates -- particularly the fly ball pitchers -- are looking forward to playing with him. Especially in an era of launch angles and infield shifts, that outfield defense has become more and more important. And I expect the Twins defense will improve significantly with him in center. I'm not worried about his hitting numbers from 2018. It was a lost season due to injuries. I'm expecting 2017 Buxton in 2019, and that guy will likely be an All-Star and get MVP votes. I'll be rooting for him and the Twins regardless of what I think of the front office and the owners.

If defense were 75% of baseball this kind of thing would excite me, but it does not.  His defense is well-reknowned, but in all honesty, how much of an impact can one glove make on a consistent basis?  His offensive struggles are a marquee issue.  There is no question (if healthy) his defense can make a positive dent.  The problem is he can go a couple of weeks without having the opportunity to make a play only he can make.  Centerfielders average less then three putouts per game according to baseball-almanac.com.  I would venture to say somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of these putouts are ones that can be made by a major league center fielder of average ability.  Just how many times can he make an impact with his glove, I feel, is greatly exaggerated.  We marvel at his athletic ability and how he can get to balls with easy, but many times these are balls that other guys can get to as well.

 

When it comes to his offense he has a spot in the lineup and this affects the Twins in a much bigger way than his glove can because that those at bats come no matter what.  Pitchers on opposing teams can operate with even more confidence than our pitchers who like having him behind them because he can be such an easy out.

 

The other thing is the injuries.  Injuries are a big part of the picture with Buxton.  It appears that he isn't going to change his game in any way.  This is his bread and butter.  The problem is, the injuries have mounted already and he is just 25.  How many more injuries can he sustain before it affects his ability to run?  How long can he be this defensive wizard/speed demon?  Will he ever learn how to be an asset offensively?  That is what I am waiting for.  If he can't hit ike an average major leaguer this season then I have to say I am done with him.

 

Back to what Riverbrain said....

The ball is in his court now that he's made it rather clear he was unhappy about what went down last year.  He says he doesn't want to "sugarcoat".  Well, if those are the terms he want's to operate under then no one should sugarcoat just how bad his offensive skills are right now.,