Buxton: "Pissed" at Twins for No Call-Up Decision in 9/2018

[USAFChief]

 

What do you have Cave and Kepler doing during that time? Given the current roster, I don’t see at bats for both AND Buxton. And that’s if they don’t add another hitter.

Kepler's in right, Cave is either in Rochester or on the bench in Minneapolis.

 

 

I'm not concerned with Jake Cave.

 

[S.]

 

Kepler's in right, Cave is either in Rochester or on the bench in Minneapolis.

 

 

I'm not concerned with Jake Cave.

That fact that we're even discussing this "issue" of Jake Cave potentially not getting enough at bats really speaks magnitudes to the state of our roster.

[DrNeau]

What exactly can Buxton do between now and Opening Day to earn the full time position?

Buxton apparently does not need to earn the position. It has been gifted to him.

 

He could have earned it by playing well and further developing in 2018, but that did not happen. He could have earned it in spring training next year, but earning a starting spot is not a requirement for Byron Buxton.

[jorgenswest]

Buxton’s 2017 fWAR of 3.5/bWAR of 5.2 are more than sufficient to give a healthy Buxton the starting CF job for at least the first 6 weeks of 2019.

[Riverbrian]

 

What exactly can Buxton do between now and Opening Day to earn the full time position?

 

Nothing

 

He shows up to camp and plays when the manager puts him in the lineup and if he performs... he earns the full time position. 

[Vanimal46]

Buxton apparently does not need to earn the position. It has been gifted to him.

 

He could have earned it by playing well and further developing in 2018, but that did not happen. He could have earned it in spring training next year, but earning a starting spot is not a requirement for Byron Buxton.

I'm of the belief spring training stats don't matter, so I don't know how one would "earn" a starting spot during exhibition games. If we took spring training stats seriously Byung-Ho Park and Chris Parmelee would be all stars.

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm of the belief spring training stats don't matter, so I don't know how one would "earn" a starting spot during exhibition games. If we took spring training stats seriously Byung-Ho Park and Chris Parmelee would be all stars.

And Luke Hughes would be HOF. Though he might be anyhow, the way things are going.

[DrNeau]

I'm of the belief spring training stats don't matter, so I don't know how one would "earn" a starting spot during exhibition games. If we took spring training stats seriously Byung-Ho Park and Chris Parmelee would be all stars.

It’s good to have beliefs. For the sake of argument, if Buxton goes 0-50 with 50 Ks in spring, does that not matter?

[jorgenswest]

It’s good to have beliefs. For the sake of argument, if Buxton goes 0-50 with 50 Ks in spring, does that not matter?

“For the sake of...”. - out of respect or regard for

 

It doesn’t seem like the premise has respect for argument. Shouldn’t the premise exist in the realm of reasonable possibilities?

[DrNeau]

 

“For the sake of...”. - out of respect or regard for

It doesn’t seem like the premise has respect for argument. Shouldn’t the premise exist in the realm of reasonable possibilities?

 

The person said they don't believe spring training stats matter, and that they don't know how one would earn a spot during spring training.

 

It is not out of the realm of reason to think that statistics can be an indication of a player's performance.

 

So...spring training stats don't matter... but stats are widely accepted and used as a tool to measure performance. Hmm... surely the argument cannot be that spring training performance does not matter at all. Right? 

 

How far will one go before that argument goes out the window? You dismiss my question about Buxton going 0-for-50. Okay, how about if he hits .156 in spring '19... same as he did in regular season '18? Would that not even be a concern? I'll tell you who is not concerned right now: Byron Buxton. He could lie on the couch for months without even standing up, cakewalk into Fort Myers and be the starting CF for the Twins. 

[jorgenswest]

Now we something to argue about...

 

I have no doubts about Buxton’s work ethic or desire to be a great ball player. I do doubt his capability to be better than league average hitter to go with his elite defensive ability. If he is healthy and hits poorly in spring he is still my starting center fielder.

[ewen21]

Spring training stats certainly can matter if you make them matter.  Tell young guys on the fringes trying to make the team that it doesn't matter.  When you eliminate that you kind of kill the friendly (not so friendly) competiion for jobs.  That is what I want in spring training.  Have your full attention and succeed because you are facing lesser competition a lot of the time.  If you come into spring training with a .670 OPS in over 1,000 plate appearances you better not look bad in your March at bats because it should assure you nothing.

 

All Buxton needs to do is hit about .240 and it's not a situation.  If he hits .200 and strikes out a lot that's just more time waiting for him to develop.  He can't be SUCH a bad hitter during spring training.  He can't ask  out of games for headaches and toe jams or whatever.  He will need to stay healthy.  To Byron Buxton spring training HAS TO matter.  Why the heck not?

 

[ewen21]

 

Now we something to argue about...

I have no doubts about Buxton’s work ethic or desire to be a great ball player. I do doubt his capability to be better than league average hitter to go with his elite defensive ability. If he is healthy and hits poorly in spring he is still my starting center fielder.

I wonder how much we know.  We know he loves running and making great catches, but how much work does he do in the cage and what kind of focus does he bring?  Is he learning?  I find it hard to rave about his work ethic when his offense is so bad while being such a superior athlete. He could spend "hours" in the cage for all I know.  I can't say anything about his focus or ability to put theory into practice.  Seems me like the hitting instructors keep going back to the drawing board.  Is this the byproduct of a marvelous work ethic?

 

 

[jorgenswest]

I agree with the healthy part. I don’t agree on making any decision based on measures that need a sample much greater than spring training to be reliable. Spring training can be performance based but the only possible judge of performance is the trained eyes of coaches watching every swing in practice and games. The result based statistics have absolutely no decision making value at that sample.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The hitting coach isn't the problem. In 2017 Falvey wanted to send Buxton down to the minors. Rowson stood up for Buxton and Buxton responded.

[DrNeau]

 

I agree with the healthy part. I don’t agree on making any decision based on measures that need a sample much greater than spring training to be reliable. Spring training can be performance based but the only possible judge of performance is the trained eyes of coaches watching every swing in practice and games. The result based statistics have absolutely no decision making value at that sample.

 

So theoretically, in spring training, providing they passed the "eye test" of coaches, every Twins hitter could go the entire month without getting a hit, and every Twins pitcher could go the entire month without getting an out, and this would not be cause for any concern, as "result-based statistics in spring training have absolutely no decision-making value". 

 

Buxton could go 0-for-50 and you would be confident going into the regular season. You would just dismiss the whole month's worth of statistics, because they are not reliable. 

[jorgenswest]

So theoretically, in spring training, providing they passed the "eye test" of coaches, every Twins hitter could go the entire month without getting a hit, and every Twins pitcher could go the entire month without getting an out, and this would not be cause for any concern, as "result-based statistics in spring training have absolutely no decision-making value". 

 

Buxton could go 0-for-50 and you would be confident going into the regular season. You would just dismiss the whole month's worth of statistics, because they are not reliable.

 

I need help with any evidence where this has ever happened for any player on any team in any year since 1870 (the first reported spring training). Once we have found that cohort of players who went 0 for 50, let’s look at how they did during the regular season and measure the correlation.

 

... and yes we must rely heavily on the eyes of the Twins coaching staff.

[ashbury]

So theoretically, in spring training, providing they passed the "eye test" of coaches, every Twins hitter could go the entire month without getting a hit, and every Twins pitcher could go the entire month without getting an out, and this would not be cause for any concern, as "result-based statistics in spring training have absolutely no decision-making value". 

 

Buxton could go 0-for-50 and you would be confident going into the regular season. You would just dismiss the whole month's worth of statistics, because they are not reliable. 

I don't think you can find a case of someone going 0-for-50 in Spring games, or a pitcher getting significant work and retiring no batters, so it's basically a strawman argument. 

 

But if Buxton has extremely poor Spring numbers, the FO has the right to take that into account when making their final roster decisions. That's not a contradiction to their saying that as of now Buxton is the incumbent at CF. And it's not a contradiction if merely mediocre numbers are given less credence (by us, or by them) than the quality of the plate appearances the on-field staff feels they are seeing.

 

Making an extreme case like you did doesn't really add much clarity, and comes across as combative.

 

_{^{/ edit - looks like jorgenswest was about to click Post when I started writing my little post - didn't mean to repeat his point}}

[jokin]

 

It is the players fault that he has migraines and can immediately not have them? As it has been a few years that he has had these it is more than reasonable to think that people have worked to control them.

 

Where was it again, that I said "immediately not have them"?

 

It is more than reasonable to think that Buck and the training/medical staff can be/have been super-proactive on a comprehensive wellness program and have sought the multiple second-opinion options for treatment that are available.

[AlwaysinModeration]

So theoretically, in spring training, providing they passed the "eye test" of coaches, every Twins hitter could go the entire month without getting a hit, and every Twins pitcher could go the entire month without getting an out, and this would not be cause for any concern, as "result-based statistics in spring training have absolutely no decision-making value".

 

Buxton could go 0-for-50 and you would be confident going into the regular season. You would just dismiss the whole month's worth of statistics, because they are not reliable.

There are any number of articles detailing how the small sample size of spring training has almost no bearing on regular season performance.

 

I’ve said this before, but let me try one more time. Buxton is 25. He posted overall minor league numbers of OPS 850+, with over 900OPS in AAA, en route to becoming the top prospect in all of baseball. He hasn’t achieved anywhere near those heights in the majors yet. But as we’ve seen from many, many players, it can take a while for hitters to put it together against MLB pitchers.

 

I think we can all agree that we want Buxton to become a standout player, with the bat as well as his glove. I think that the best way for him to get there is to play CF for the Twins all year in 2019 - even if he has a lousy spring training. I also think it is very useful for the front office and new manager to give him a vote of confidence that he isn’t going to be immediately demoted if he has a bad start. (Which is apparently what many of the posters on TD would be prepared to do.)

[DrNeau]

I don't think you can find a case of someone going 0-for-50 in Spring games, or a pitcher getting significant work and retiring no batters, so it's basically a strawman argument.

 

But if Buxton has extremely poor Spring numbers, the FO has the right to take that into account when making their final roster decisions. That's not a contradiction to their saying that as of now Buxton is the incumbent at CF. And it's not a contradiction if merely mediocre numbers are given less credence (by us, or by them) than the quality of the plate appearances the on-field staff feels they are seeing.

 

Making an extreme case like you did doesn't really add much clarity, and comes across as combative.

 

_{^{/ edit - looks like jorgenswest was about to click Post when I started writing my little post - didn't mean to repeat his point}}

An equally extreme statement is to say that spring training performance absolutely does not matter at all. So extreme, I might add, that it does not bring much clarity. My theoretical scenario was in response to that first extreme/unclear statement. I sought to clarify that to some degree, spring training performance does matter. If Buxton were to play incredibly poor this spring, it would raise major alarms. Why would it raise alarms? Because to some degree, spring training performance does matter. You want to call the 0-for-50 scenario a straw man? Fine. Before you even responded, I asked what if he hits .156 in spring, same as he did last regular season. You chose to jump on my theoretical scenario instead.

 

No one is being combative; please don’t insert that idea.

[Riverbrian]

Spring training stats shouldn't matter and most times they don't. 

 

But every once in awhile. Ryan LaMarre gets a roster spot. Aaron Hicks get the CF job over Benson and Mastro. 

 

Spring training stats shouldn't matter, most times they don't but sometime they do. 

 

As for Buxton... There is no way, I'm letting him win or lose a job in spring training and there is no way I'm naming him a starter in December. 

 

I'll give him a 25 man roster spot and the same promise that I'd make to the other 24. If you perform you will play. 

 

If fixing this or making this right for Byron caused the front office to declare him a starter as some form of repair in December.

 

I'll say that two wrong's don't make a right. 

[jorgenswest]

Performance matters. I am certain I argued above that it does.

 

Statistics in spring training do not give a reliable picture of performance. The sample is too small and varied.

 

The only way to judge Buxton’s spring performance is to see him in every at bat and workout.

[Dman]

 

There are any number of articles detailing how the small sample size of spring training has almost no bearing on regular season performance.

I’ve said this before, but let me try one more time. Buxton is 25. He posted overall minor league numbers of OPS 850+, with over 900OPS in AAA, en route to becoming the top prospect in all of baseball. He hasn’t achieved anywhere near those heights in the majors yet. But as we’ve seen from many, many players, it can take a while for hitters to put it together against MLB pitchers.

I think we can all agree that we want Buxton to become a standout player, with the bat as well as his glove. I think that the best way for him to get there is to play CF for the Twins all year in 2019 - even if he has a lousy spring training. I also think it is very useful for the front office and new manager to give him a vote of confidence that he isn’t going to be immediately demoted if he has a bad start. (Which is apparently what many of the posters on TD would be prepared to do.)

 

I agree with you here.  This year the FO needs to find out what they have in Buxton and Sano.  Unless they look absolutely helpless at the plate they need to play them all season.  As you stated there is little for Byron to learn in AAA at this point.  He has essentially mastered that level.  He needs to get comfortable at the MLB level and to do that he needs to play.  

 

He has had some success at the MLB he just needs to get more more consistent and stop swinging at those breaking balls in the dirt and that low and away stuff.  If he starts swinging at actual good pitches and puts the ball in play he should be just fine.

 

There seems to be a fair bit of consensus from lots of scouts and pundits that seem to feel he just needs to get healthy and get more experience and he is going to be fine.  The Twins need him to succeed in order for the team to compete with the better teams.  I think this year you throw your chips into the middle and hope you end up with a royal flush in the end.  Heck even two pair or a full house would do.  Let's just hope we do better than ace high.

[Vanimal46]

It’s good to have beliefs. For the sake of argument, if Buxton goes 0-50 with 50 Ks in spring, does that not matter?

It would take something that extreme for me to even look at spring training stats. More often than not players are working on different things. Pitchers work on a 3rd/4th pitch, and ramp up their velocity. Players get their timing down and focus on being more aggressive or patient at the plate.

[DrNeau]

 

It would take something that extreme for me to even look at spring training stats. More often than not players are working on different things. Pitchers work on a 3rd/4th pitch, and ramp up their velocity. Players get their timing down and focus on being more aggressive or patient at the plate.

 

I can accept that. I don't disagree with most of what you said. We both know that the exhibition games in spring are like a test environment. It's just the claim that spring training statistics have absolutely no value at all that I sort of take exception to. 

[markos]

 

Buxton apparently does not need to earn the position. It has been gifted to him.

He could have earned it by playing well and further developing in 2018, but that did not happen. He could have earned it in spring training next year, but earning a starting spot is not a requirement for Byron Buxton.

That side-steps the question. How does someone earn a starting spot in spring training?

[DrNeau]

If someone were to earn a starting spot in spring training, they would do it by out-performing their opposition. 

[Major League Ready]

 

I think we can all agree that we want Buxton to become a standout player, with the bat as well as his glove. I think that the best way for him to get there is to play CF for the Twins all year in 2019 - even if he has a lousy spring training. I also think it is very useful for the front office and new manager to give him a vote of confidence that he isn’t going to be immediately demoted if he has a bad start. (Which is apparently what many of the posters on TD would be prepared to do.)

 

Giving Buxton a vote of confidence at this point makes sense. It's a good way to mitigate the riff between him and the organization. OK, Byron, we understand your frustration, hopefully you can understand our side of this too. We are going to give you ample opportunity to prove yourself, including naming you the CFer now. While I would not normally condone scholarships, the organization did not handle this well and this is a reasonable way to mend fences. Given Buxton's potential, giving him a lot of rope in a season full of question marks seems prudent even without the service time controversy.. If somehow all the other questions are answered positively but Buxton struggles, we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

[Vanimal46]

Happy 25th birthday Byron.