E Santana helping Berrios fix flaw in his delivery

[DocBauer]

Did anyone else catch this article in the Pioneer Press? Sorry, I'm not sure on my tablet how to post a link to the story, but it's well worth a quick read. In the article, the wily veteran Santana praises Berrios's stuff and fe,the he was opening his left hip too quickly.

 

Santana has been pitching well this season for our Twins. He's cost controlled for whatever more seasons, and based on what he is showing this year, I think it's fair to not expect some sudden regression in 2017. The solid job he's been doing, and things ,Ike this article and willingness to work with the young Berrios are why I'm in favor of him helping anchor our rotation as a veteran starter next season vs looking to trade him.

[Seth Stohs]

Here's the link to Mike Berardino's article:

 

http://www.twincities.com/2016/08/12/minnesota-twins-ervin-santana-helping-jose-berrios-fix-delivery-flaw/

 

 

It was really fun watching Berrios and Santana interact through spring training. That's a great relationship there!

[ashbury]

Pitchers should pitch and coaches should coach. It's Neil Allen's job to figure out how to assist a struggling rookie - what recommendations to offer, and most especially the timing. It's his job to find answers. I don't think this thread should become a referendum on Allen (please start a different thread if someone feels thus inclined), but that's the baseline I start with.

 

In that light I'm not sure how to interpret this static in the signal that ESan's assistance seems to be injecting. Certainly veterans should lead if that is their style, my first sentence notwithstanding. I need more information to be able to assimilate this, and I'm not even sure what that info would be.

[Craig Arko]

Pitchers should pitch and coaches should coach. It's Neil Allen's job to figure out how to assist a struggling rookie - what recommendations to offer, and most especially the timing. It's his job to find answers. I don't think this thread should become a referendum on Allen (please start a different thread if someone feels thus inclined), but that's the baseline I start with.

 

In that light I'm not sure how to interpret this static in the signal that ESan's assistance seems to be injecting. Certainly veterans should lead, my first sentence notwithstanding. I need more information to be able to assimilate this, and I'm not even sure what that info would be.

In my profession, the official training programs don't really do a heck of a lot; it's been tutelage from the people who have been around a long time that actually transfers knowledge. I doubt this is an isolated example.

[kab21]

 

Pitchers should pitch and coaches should coach. It's Neil Allen's job to figure out how to assist a struggling rookie - what recommendations to offer, and most especially the timing. It's his job to find answers. I don't think this thread should become a referendum on Allen (please start a different thread if someone feels thus inclined), but that's the baseline I start with.

 

In that light I'm not sure how to interpret this static in the signal that ESan's assistance seems to be injecting. Certainly veterans should lead if that is their style, my first sentence notwithstanding. I need more information to be able to assimilate this, and I'm not even sure what that info would be.

Disagree. There is no reason that a prospect shouldn't talk with a veteran about things that work and don't work. Ervin Santana also has a similar background as Berrios and probably struggled with some of the same issues that Berrios is going through.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Disagree. There is no reason that a prospect shouldn't talk with a veteran about things that work and don't work. Ervin Santana also has a similar background as Berrios and probably struggled with some of the same issues that Berrios is going through.

but it depends right? Sometimes vets speak up on their own and it causes more harm than good. Sometimes a vet says exactly what the rookie needs to hear and if backfires.

 

I'm not entirely against OJT w/ the mentors, but I'm also not 100% for if either.

[howeda7]

It's great that Erv is helping. But frankly the pitching this season has been god awful and everyone knows it. It wouldn't shock me if we're looking for a new pitching coach in October. 

[jimbo92107]

Love it. Ervin Santana is a proven veteran, and Berrios can relate intimately to his background. I'm glad Santana is showing veteran leadership, helping Berrios find his comfort zone on the mound. This isn't a knock on Neil Allen at all. Sometimes the same message can be delivered in many different ways, and for some reason one of the different ways clicks for a young pitcher. 

 

Mentoring isn't just about mechanics, either. It helps a young player build social relationships, so they don't feel isolated. Feeling that you're among friends and allies will help lower Berrios's stress level. That by itself may make Santana's involvement well worth the effort. 

[Squirrel]

Here's the link to Mike Berardino's article:

 

http://www.twincities.com/2016/08/12/minnesota-twins-ervin-santana-helping-jose-berrios-fix-delivery-flaw/

 

 

It was really fun watching Berrios and Santana interact through spring training. That's a great relationship there!

I noticed that, too, and mentioned it at the time. Do you know if that just happened naturally, did one seek the other out, or was it something encouraged by management?

[TNTwinsFan]

So I guess Tori Hunter should have kept his experience to himself last year? But wait...I thought that's precisely why he was signed in the first place...to coach and mentor your outfielders.

[mikelink45]

 

It's great that Erv is helping. But frankly the pitching this season has been god awful and everyone knows it. It wouldn't shock me if we're looking for a new pitching coach in October. 

Why wait?  We want the young pitchers to flourish and if the Twins share any of my angst of Allen's effectiveness they should be getting the players help now and not wait until next year.

[Craig Arko]

I hear Rick Anderson is available.

[Old Twins Cap]

Anyone on the Twins' bench who watched Houston hit shot after shot on Thursday is certainly eligible to give the kid some advice.  It was painful to watch, and frankly, dangerous with how hard they were clubbing balls.

[Seth Stohs]

 

I noticed that, too, and mentioned it at the time. Do you know if that just happened naturally, did one seek the other out, or was it something encouraged by management?

 

I asked Terry Ryan that question after I'd been there for a day or two, and he said it was definitely by design, similar to lockering Torii Hunter with Aaron Hicks and Byron Buxton last spring training.

[diehardtwinsfan]

yeah, I don't see a problem with this. It isn't as though Allan has no input. He's one person though, a second set of eyes is almost always a good thing... at least it is in my profession.

[ashbury]

So I guess Tori Hunter should have kept his experience to himself last year? But wait...I thought that's precisely why he was signed in the first place...to coach and mentor your outfielders.

If for example Allen took ESan aside and asked him to reinforce the message he'd been trying to impart to Jose, and then let ESan get some credit in print for it, that would be great. It would be an example of the additional info I was referring to in my previous post. If ESan is just spitballing ideas to the prospect, in contradiction to what the coach has been preaching, that would be a different case, also the kind of additional info I want. Want, and no doubt can't have. It's why I am really split on what I read in that article.

 

Now that I read it a second time, Neil Allen's name is conspicuous by its absence. Berardino certainly has access to the Twins coaching staff. The article doesn't push this as a second set of eyes situation.

[lukeduke1980]

The other day on TV I think they were talking about how Gibson's release point was drifting by 4-5 inches and I kind of wondered where the pitching coach was on that one as well.

[jorgenswest]

I am not sure why Santana giving advice to a rookie pitcher is newsworthy.

[Craig Arko]

 

I am not sure why Santana giving advice to a rookie pitcher is newsworthy.

I imagine that's why it's called a forum and not a newscast.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Pitchers should pitch and coaches should coach. It's Neil Allen's job to figure out how to assist a struggling rookie - what recommendations to offer, and most especially the timing. It's his job to find answers. I don't think this thread should become a referendum on Allen (please start a different thread if someone feels thus inclined), but that's the baseline I start with.

 

In that light I'm not sure how to interpret this static in the signal that ESan's assistance seems to be injecting. Certainly veterans should lead if that is their style, my first sentence notwithstanding. I need more information to be able to assimilate this, and I'm not even sure what that info would be.

I don't believe this at all. A good working environment allows experienced people to assist inexperienced people.

 

If Santana is giving Berrios advice contradictory to Allen's teachings, that's a problem... But if he's supplementing Allen's work, that's a good thing.

 

No single person has all the answers. Relying entirely on the coach to fix everything that ails every player is an unreasonable standard to hold, particularly when there are people very good at the same job also in the room.

[Riverbrian]

If it works

 

I have no problem if the advice comes from the P.A. announcer. 

[jorgenswest]

I imagine that's why it's called a forum and not a newscast.

I apologize. I thought this was about a news article about Santana and Berrios in the Pioneer Press.

[Willihammer]

It would not surprise me at all if Santana were reinforcing a point Allen was already trying to make. "Save 97 for putting hitters away, focus on commanding 94 for strike one" is a smart message, and Santana has had success and longevity that way. It might resonate differently coming from him compared to Allen.

[puckstopper1]

 

I hear Rick Anderson is available.

 

I just gagged on my Fruit Loops!

[Otto von Ballpark]

Pitchers should pitch and coaches should coach. It's Neil Allen's job to figure out how to assist a struggling rookie - what recommendations to offer, and most especially the timing. It's his job to find answers. I don't think this thread should become a referendum on Allen (please start a different thread if someone feels thus inclined), but that's the baseline I start with.

 

In that light I'm not sure how to interpret this static in the signal that ESan's assistance seems to be injecting. Certainly veterans should lead if that is their style, my first sentence notwithstanding. I need more information to be able to assimilate this, and I'm not even sure what that info would be.

I feel this a bit too, and it is somewhat related to cultural issues. Are the coaches relying too much on Latin American players to mentor younger Latin American players, or African American players to mentor younger African American players? Some of that is natural, I am sure, but the Twins have had enough clubhouse and development issues that I feel like this might be another symptom of the front office and coaching staff failing to adequately bridge those divides themselves.

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

 

Pitchers should pitch and coaches should coach. It's Neil Allen's job to figure out how to assist a struggling rookie - what recommendations to offer, and most especially the timing. It's his job to find answers. I don't think this thread should become a referendum on Allen (please start a different thread if someone feels thus inclined), but that's the baseline I start with.

 

In that light I'm not sure how to interpret this static in the signal that ESan's assistance seems to be injecting. Certainly veterans should lead if that is their style, my first sentence notwithstanding. I need more information to be able to assimilate this, and I'm not even sure what that info would be.

I was/am an athlete and a coach of another sport, and the most applicable fixes and tricks I learned were passed on from other athletes. For some reason it is often easier to see flaws and fixes when you personally can "feel" them from watching due to going though it now or recently yourself. As coach, the further you are from the physical part of it, the harder it is to see and relate to certain things.

 

Coaches can teach on the broader scale and to the masses, but often times an athlete who is similar to you or has personally had similar struggles can better identify and share tips and tricks. There are soooo many pitcher specific stories out there how pitcher A taught or learned Y from pitcher B, and jumpstarted or saved their careers. 

 

*I would add that coaches often miss certain things due to having to do so many things for all your players, so something that might visible to others might get missed in the daily work and being pulled in different directions.

 

Where players basically just have to focus on themselves, making it easier to take the time to notice or help another player.

[Craig Arko]

It is worth recalling that Allen helped Santana fix a flaw in his delivery last year, which helped Ervin quite a bit during that chase for the wild card.

[ashbury]

Writers are taught to seek a second source if they can. I realize that writing for the sports pages is under deadline and it's not practical to double check everything. Still, it would have been great to see Allen mentioned in one fashion or another. Without it, the article seems a little lazy. I'd have settled for any of these.

 

"Coach Neil Allen confirmed that Santana spotted something important, and he had encouraged the veteran to go talk to the youngster about it."

 

"Coach Neil Allen indicated that he has been preaching the same message since Berrios's first stint with the big club, and was happy the veteran had chosen to speak up."

 

"Coach Neil Allen expressed surprise that this conversation had taken place, but said that players often talk shop between starts."

"Coach Neil Allen had no comment when asked."

 

"Coach Neil Allen could not be reached for comment and did not return phone messages."

 

"Coach Neil Allen is being actively searched for by local authorities."

 

"Memorial services were held yesterday for..."

 

 

 

_{^{/ I feel compelled on second reading to state that this is NOT a DUI based comment, and I would have taken the same tack regarding Brunansky had this been two batters.}}

[twinsnorth49]

Mentioning to a young pitcher his hip might be opening up a bit too early isn't exactly groundbreaking coaching, it's not like he's rebuilding his delivery. Pitchers show each other different grips for pitches all the time, I don't think this undermines the coaching staff in any way.

 

A bit too much made of this IMO.

[nicksaviking]

Mentioning to a young pitcher his hip might be opening up a bit too early isn't exactly groundbreaking coaching, it's not like he's rebuilding his delivery. Pitchers show each other different grips for pitches all the time, I don't think this undermines the coaching staff in any way.

A bit too much made of this IMO.

Right, didn't the organization openly pride themselves on bringing back Torii Hunter last year to do this with the young bats? Seems to me Johan Santana was always trying to teach (to no avail) his change up to teammates as well.

 

Also I believe Ervin Santana is known as a student of the game and I do recall him rattling off pretty old Twins trivia when they signed him. He's probably not much less qualified to aid the pitchers than BP coach Eddie Gaurdado.