Should Sano Get Demoted?

[Vanimal46]

If you think Sano's problem is confidence, AND you think demoting him to work on some things will help his confidence, then I would be ok with it for a short period of time. But those are two big assumptions I'm not sure about. I don't agree with demoting him because his work ethic is not where it should be, unless they have repeatedly spoken with him about it and don't see any increased effort AND they think that lack of effort is really holding him back.

 

My concern is if he responds to a demotion in his mind with the reaction, "they don't respect me, they don't appreciate me, **** them." I would hope that wouldn't be it, but it is always a possibility, especially if it is done in a disrespectful way.

That's my concern too. The way this season has gone, if they send him down, would it hinder our ability to resign him down the road?

[whydidnt]

I'm amazed how many people here seem to know how hard Sano is trying and how little he cares. Really, none of us know what he is doing to improve on a daily basis. I disagree that he is out of shape. He is a large man, but does not look fat to me. I think the Twins history of dealing with Dominican or Hispanic players gives me reason to think that perhaps the issues aren't with Sano, but the with the Twins.After the last 5 years, I'm not willing to give the Twins FO and field staff the benefit of the doubt on this one. 

[toosweet64]

 

I'm amazed how many people here seem to know how hard Sano is trying and how little he cares. Really, none of us know what he is doing to improve on a daily basis. I disagree that he is out of shape. He is a large man, but does not look fat to me. I think the Twins history of dealing with Dominican or Hispanic players gives me reason to think that perhaps the issues aren't with Sano, but the with the Twins.After the last 5 years, I'm not willing to give the Twins FO and field staff the benefit of the doubt on this one. 

 

We don't kneed to guess at how hard Sano is trying, Bruno has already told us:

 

Per an MLB report today:

 

"At issue is also how hard Sano has been working at getting better, as hitting coach Tom Brunansky told 1500 ESPN Radio on Wednesday that Sano's "work ethic needs to match his talent level." Molitor said it's not uncommon for young players to run into that issue, and he agreed with Brunansky's assertion."

 

 

[nicksaviking]

I agree, Sano should get demoted.

 

To the fifth or six spot in the lineup.

 

Seriously, what team thinks enough about a guy to bat him in the heart of the order than wanes so much on him that he goes to AAA instead of just taking him out of the spotlight part of the lineup?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

We don't kneed to guess at how hard Sano is trying, Bruno has already told us:

 

Per an MLB report today:

 

"At issue is also how hard Sano has been working at getting better, as hitting coach Tom Brunansky told 1500 ESPN Radio on Wednesday that Sano's "work ethic needs to match his talent level." Molitor said it's not uncommon for young players to run into that issue, and he agreed with Brunansky's assertion."

I think you are missing the point. The coaches, especially Bruno, have very little standing with many of us.

 

And oh by the way, what kind of player was Bruno in his mid 20s? Contact hitter? Work ethic to match his talent?

[twinsnorth49]

We don't kneed to guess at how hard Sano is trying, Bruno has already told us:

 

Per an MLB report today:

 

"At issue is also how hard Sano has been working at getting better, as hitting coach Tom Brunansky told 1500 ESPN Radio on Wednesday that Sano's "work ethic needs to match his talent level." Molitor said it's not uncommon for young players to run into that issue, and he agreed with Brunansky's assertion."

Maybe Bruno's talent level at teaching hitting needs to match his work ethic.

[Boom Boom]

I guess if you want to send him down to punish him, the team isn't going anywhere in the meantime.

 

I think the talent is there to keep him up regardless of perceived lack of effort. I don't want Sano to get a Manny Ramirez-like ego, but I'd certainly take a Manny Ramirez-like bat.

[laloesch]

 

I'm amazed how many people here seem to know how hard Sano is trying and how little he cares. Really, none of us know what he is doing to improve on a daily basis. I disagree that he is out of shape. He is a large man, but does not look fat to me. I think the Twins history of dealing with Dominican or Hispanic players gives me reason to think that perhaps the issues aren't with Sano, but the with the Twins.After the last 5 years, I'm not willing to give the Twins FO and field staff the benefit of the doubt on this one. 

 

What "history" are you referring to?  I don't think it has anything to do with ethnicity if that's what you are insinuating, not at all.  If the Twins didn't like Latino players  they wouldn't draft them to begin.  Utter nonsense IMO. 

 

I also don't believe that there is absolutely no reason were not allowed to question his work ethic or conditioning or whatever you are eluding too because it's not a direct source.  There is plenty of indirect evidence floating around to the contrary starting with his deplorable defense in the OF and at third in addition to his struggles at the plate.  Some of that is to be expected for a young guy, but word has gotten around too (whether you like it or not or believe it) from indirect sources in the Twin Cities that he is frustrated and not listening to coaches.  This is being observed in batting practice apparently.

 

Moving on.  Just because you don't appear out of shape doesn't mean you ARE in shape.  Yes, Sano is a large man, but so are many people including myself (6'-5" 225lbs).  I also played three sports (football - tackle and TE, basketball and soccer) in highschool and college and know a thing or two about conditioning.  Sano is an athlete and strong but there's no doubt he's husky at 270 and it definitely showed when he was in the outfield.  I seem to remember a lot of miscues where he came up way short on fly balls and was huffing and puffing like he'd run a marathon.  Not a good sign of ideal conditioning.

[Rosterman]

The decision to make will be where do you play Plouffe, and could Sano be better served if he went down to Rochester for the remainder of the season and played EVERYDAY at third base. The message will be that we want you to get even more comfortable with third again after skipping that position for the off-season and most of this year. Oh, and while you are there, let's work really hard on taking pitches and watching those strikeouts. We are doing this for your good, and we are working out the issues of the Plouffe problem, and quite frankly, we want to also see what Vargas is doing before we bring up Park. We want Sano to be the third baseman of the near future.

 

Or maybe we want him to be the DH, which means we have a power-hitting void at third and no place to put Park, Vargas, Adam Walker.

 

Unless we quickly put Mauer on waivers during his hot streak, some team that may win the World Series wants him, and Joe is willing to move on and solve ALL the Twins problems. Maybe that is what Joe was thinking about Thursday afternoon when going from second to third base and derailed our little possible rally.

 

At this point, sitting on the bench won't help ano. He can do that in September (don't pull an Arcia and forget about him, no matter what he does). He can definitely work on a couple of things. And to get his play up at third base is a logical and understandle reason to demote him to Rochester, especially if Plouffe is coming back.

 

Now what to do with our fifth outfielder, Byron Buxton? And when do we bring Murphy back up and play him instead of Centeno. Between Murphy and Centeno, who is most likely to be a Twin in 2017?

[whydidnt]

What "history" are you referring to?  I don't think it has anything to do with ethnicity if that's what you are insinuating, not at all.  If the Twins didn't like Latino players  they wouldn't draft them to begin.  Utter nonsense IMO. 

 

I also don't believe that there is absolutely no reason were not allowed to question his work ethic or conditioning or whatever you are eluding too because it's not a direct source.  There is plenty of indirect evidence floating around to the contrary starting with his deplorable defense in the OF and at third in addition to his struggles at the plate.  Some of that is to be expected for a young guy, but word has gotten around too (whether you like it or not or believe it) from indirect sources in the Twin Cities that he is frustrated and not listening to coaches.  This is being observed in batting practice apparently.

 

Moving on.  Just because you don't appear out of shape doesn't mean you ARE in shape.  Yes, Sano is a large man, but so are many people including myself (6'-5" 225lbs).  I also played three sports (football - tackle and TE, basketball and soccer) in highschool and college and know a thing or two about conditioning.  Sano is an athlete and strong but there's no doubt he's husky at 270 and it definitely showed when he was in the outfield.  I seem to remember a lot of miscues where he came up way short on fly balls and was huffing and puffing like he'd run a marathon.  Not a good sign of ideal conditioning.

Well, it seems whenever we hear about an "attitude or work ethic" issue it's always a Latino player. In recent memory, Liriano, Arcia, Rosario and now Sano all seem to be afflicted with this issue - heck Ortiz talks about how poorly he felt he was treated here. It's funny, when Joe Mauer refuses to pull the ball, or Brian Dozier refuses to go the other way, that's just how they play, they don't have a bad attitude. I don't think the Twins are racist, but I do think they are AWFUL at communicating with young players, and in particular with young Latino players. The Twins have done nothing but jerk Sano around these last 12 months, one really shouldn't blame him if he's not real keen to listen to additional advice from the team that told a 23 year to lose a pile of weight to go play a position he's never played before and is unlikely to be good at. It seems the more potential talent a guy has, the more obstacles they put in his way to success.

[Intramural Legend]

 

Well, it seems whenever we hear about an "attitude or work ethic" issue it's always a Latino player. In recent memory, Liriano, Arcia, Rosario and now Sano all seem to be afflicted with this issue - heck Ortiz talks about how poorly he felt he was treated here. It's funny, when Joe Mauer refuses to pull the ball, or Brian Dozier refuses to go the other way, that's just how they play, they don't have a bad attitude. I don't think the Twins are racist, but I do think they are AWFUL at communicating with young players, and in particular with young Latino players. The Twins have done nothing but jerk Sano around these last 12 months, one really shouldn't blame him if he's not real keen to listen to additional advice from the team that told a 23 year to lose a pile of weight to go play a position he's never played before and is unlikely to be good at. It seems the more potential talent a guy has, the more obstacles they put in his way to success.

 

Dozier caught plenty of flak early in the year for refusing to go the other way - he was too stubborn and hardheaded to change! 

 

 

[KGB]

Let me see if I getting this:

We don’t believe anyone with direct knowledge of Sano’s work habits; we would rather rely on our pure speculation.

We are afraid of the team pushing Sano to be a great player, because he might want to leave.  We are willing to accept below potential performance just so he stays.

Sending a player like Dozier down early in his career and not bringing him back up in September is okay, but doing it with a Latino player like Arica is an example of mistreatment.  Similar to asking Sano to lose weight, just like I’m sure they did with Phil Hughes.  But the prime example of Latino mistreatment is Ortiz, about 15 years ago.

[laloesch]

 

Well, it seems whenever we hear about an "attitude or work ethic" issue it's always a Latino player. In recent memory, Liriano, Arcia, Rosario and now Sano all seem to be afflicted with this issue - heck Ortiz talks about how poorly he felt he was treated here. It's funny, when Joe Mauer refuses to pull the ball, or Brian Dozier refuses to go the other way, that's just how they play, they don't have a bad attitude. I don't think the Twins are racist, but I do think they are AWFUL at communicating with young players, and in particular with young Latino players. The Twins have done nothing but jerk Sano around these last 12 months, one really shouldn't blame him if he's not real keen to listen to additional advice from the team that told a 23 year to lose a pile of weight to go play a position he's never played before and is unlikely to be good at. It seems the more potential talent a guy has, the more obstacles they put in his way to success.

 

Is that so?  I seem to remember many issues with guys like Morneau, Cuddyer, Kubel etc. when they first called up.  And guess what they AREN'T LATINO! In fact one player gave one of those guys a black eye because he thought he wasn't giving it his all.  AND TISK TISK TISK we can't have any criticism of poor Sano or any other Latino players because they would make the Twins a very naughty racist organization. 

 

Give me a break.

[jimmer]

 

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/193593330/twins-consider-sending-miguel-sano-to-triple-a/

[Vanimal46]

Once again we're catering to Trevor freaking Plouffe. Unreal. 

[COtwin]

No.  No.  No.  The Twins have taken like 4 years to commit to a rebuild.  Sano stays up and learns 3rd base here.  Every day he doesn't play 3rd, other than rest, shows the ignorance of the coaching staff.  If you watch games, his mistakes aren't usually lack of range or throwing, they are either mental mistakes or something dumb like messing up a pop fly.  I can pretty clearly recall several errors, and for the most part they didn't cost us runs.  He has also saved some runs and made some great plays.  He needs to play everyday and settle in.  He needs to learn, and even if we lose a couple more with him, I don't care.  I want him to know the team supports him at third, because that is what will give us the most value over the next several years.  

[Linus]

I Don think they are catering to Ploufee. Thanks worried about Sano s development

[whydidnt]

Dozier caught plenty of flak early in the year for refusing to go the other way - he was too stubborn and hardheaded to change!

 

Not from the team itself. That was mostly on this site. I never heard Bremer mention his attitude, or one of the team's favorite reporters mention he had an attitude. You can tell when the Twins want to send a message to the fans - Bremer, Blyleven and couple local writers all seem to have same story at the same time.

[jimmer]

So when the coaches themselves questions a players work ethic, we still can't take that into account?  Who exactly does one have to hear it from to believe there's some truth to it?

[ashbury]

AND I'll treat you with respect if you provide it back.

Moderator's gentle suggestion: please do so even if you feel otherwise.

[twinsnorth49]

So when the coaches themselves questions a players work ethic, we still can't take that into account? Who exactly does one have to hear it from to believe there's some truth to it?

Someone without something to lose.

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, but with the results these coaches have managed this year, I'm not sure a little shifting of blame isn't happening.

 

I could be wrong, admittedly.

[laloesch]

 

Really, you heard quotes that the organization was questioning their work ethic and attitude? I never heard any of that excerpts for a tiny bit regarding Kubel after his injury and that was more about his rehab. I heard things such as they weren't ready and needed to work on things. A quick Google search and all I can find is how those guys had great work ethics throughout their career.

I'm not going to get in a pissing contest with you and shout and yell from the top of the roof as you seem to feel is necessary. There are plenty of things to criticize Sano about, however, I'm not going to question his work ethic and attitude after a year in which the Twins have done nothing but mess with him. AND I'll treat you with respect if you provide it back.

 

This is not a personal attack by me or anyone else.  However, insinuating that Sano, Arcia, Rosario, Vargas, etc were treated differently by the Twins because they come from Latin American countries is a SERIOUS allegation.  Bluntly put you are alleging ethnic bias from the organization.  

 

That said, be prepared to back it up and take the heat.  It's like they say don't throw stones at people if you live in a glass house. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

This is not a personal attack by me or anyone else.  However, insinuating that Sano, Arcia, Rosario, Vargas, etc were treated differently by the Twins because they come from Latin American countries is a SERIOUS allegation.  Bluntly put you are alleging ethnic bias from the organization.  

I haven't followed this thread, but I will interject that it doesn't have to be an intentional bias. I would be rather surprised if the Twins (and a few other teams) didn't have an unintentional bias in these areas, the Twins perhaps more than most because they've made a number of coaching changes in the last ~5 years yet haven't added many/any Latin Americans to their staff, suggesting they may not even recognize it as a problem worth addressing yet.  (It's a big thing I'd like the new GM to look at, and hopefully Antony is already giving it greater consideration than TR apparently did.)

[by jiminy]

 

No he shouldn't. He's an established major league player now going through a slump. Let him work his way through it.

 

The key word here is "work."  Considering the team is rebuilding, I'm fine with him playing terribly if it's the fastest way for him to improve.  But I am very concerned with the reports about his lack of motivation and effort.  If he refuses to address his plate discipline issues, skipping batting practice even as he racks up record strikeouts, I would question whether he is improving as much as he should be. 

 

Errors don't matter this year, if he's trying; what matters is putting in the work.  But his hitting is NOT getting better.  He is hitting much worse this year than last year.  The league is challenging him to make adjustments, and he hasn't.  Is he doing everything he can to learn?  That's the question to me.  If he's working his ass off up here, sure, be patient and help him learn.  If he's not, send him down until he commits 100% to getting better.  It helped Arcia, Rosario, and Vargas.  Don't let him slack off.  I don't care if it takes years.  The only thing that matters this year is how it affects his next 20 years.

 

Look, I know the Star-Tribune likes to single out a favorite whipping boy and slag his character to drum up passions.  I don't claim to know how hard Sano is working.  But this article really concerned me: http://www.startribune.com/twins-considering-a-minor-league-demotion-for-miguel-sano/389201711/

 

It's not just some cynical columnist like Reusse or Souhan. It's Brunansky, saying "He needs to commit to be better," and Molitor, saying "I'm not seeing it every day."

 

If you had the potential he has, and were having the year he's having, would you skip batting practice?  It's unthinkable!

 

Coddling didn't work with Delmon Young. We can't afford another Delmon Young. 

 

Maybe just ttalking about sending him down will light a fire under him, and that will be enough.  But if it isn't, I'm absolutely fine with sending him to AAA. If it means we don't see him play for a while, fine.  The goal is for him to end up in the Hall of Fame. Take the long view.

[HitInAPinch]

I'm not sure [ actually, probably don't care ] who is copying whom, but, quote-wise, the StarTribune has almost an identical story on Sano:

 

http://www.startribune.com/twins-considering-a-minor-league-demotion-for-miguel-sano/389201711/

 

I REALLY hope this is not true.  And, considering Sano's recent play, can't be entirely ignored.

 

EDIT:  I see some others are quoting the Strib, too.  Didn't mean to pile-on.  Wishing the best for Sano!

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

I haven't followed this thread, but I will interject that it doesn't have to be an intentional bias. I would be rather surprised if the Twins (and a few other teams) didn't have an unintentional bias in these areas, the Twins perhaps more than most because they've made a number of coaching changes in the last ~5 years yet haven't added many/any Latin Americans to their staff, suggesting they may not even recognize it as a problem worth addressing yet.  (It's a big thing I'd like the new GM to look at, and hopefully Antony is already giving it greater consideration than TR apparently did.)

 

well, there was a study on one of the sites last year.....and it is clear there is a bias against Latin players and their attitudes across MLB. 

 

I have no idea if the Twins suffer from this or not. But, they clearly ripped on Slowey and Perkins at one point......Frankly, I find the whole use of the broadcasting crew to send a message unprofessional.

 

[dbminn]

I've been irritated for years by the lack of Latin-American mentors in the Twins system. That being said, it's hard to say the Twins have kept LA players down. They have been playing Centeno, Vargas, Polanco, Escobar, Sano and Rosario, with Santana and Rodriguez on the mound. Only Sano has had his work ethic called into question.

 

Not every bump in the road is caused by management. Sano needs to work some things out and I think he will.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

well, there was a study on one of the sites last year.....and it is clear there is a bias against Latin players and their attitudes across MLB. 

 

I have no idea if the Twins suffer from this or not. But, they clearly ripped on Slowey and Perkins at one point......Frankly, I find the whole use of the broadcasting crew to send a message unprofessional.

The Twins issues with Slowey and Perkins were over specific management decisions (bullpen and/or minor league assignments, IIRC).  Those conflicts exist with all baseball players since time immemorial.  They don't really have any relevance to general problems working with Latin American players.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The Twins issues with Slowey and Perkins were over specific management decisions (bullpen and/or minor league assignments, IIRC).  Those conflicts exist with all baseball players since time immemorial.  They don't really have any relevance to general problems working with Latin American players.

 

The argument being made was they ONLY rip Latin players....I merely offered two examples that required a millisecond of thought to recall. In no way does that imply if they have an issue with Latin players or not, as I clearly stated in the post.

 

I for one called for years for them to hire more Latin coaches, it was embarrassing, imo, that they had almost no one that even spoke Spanish, let alone had cultural similarities to many of their players. They clearly recognized they had an issue, I don't think they've addressed it enough, but I can't say for sure or not.

[twinssouth]

The Twins do have a dilemma on their hands when/if Plouffe returns. Seems you'd replace an infielder with an infielder. Polanco's been hitting and playing good D, plus adds versatility. Vargas, playing DH and 1st has much higher OPS then Sano. Sano has 20 plus errors over the last 40 some games, striking out 37% or so, hitting 219. You're not going to send him back out to RF, Kepler's been All World. So that leaves Santana but he's the reserve Outfielder. Seems to me, if Plouffe comes up, Sano would go down. I don't like it but that's the way it's shaking out.