Big Papi on the "Sano Experiment"

[jimbo92107]

 

16 games times sixty defensive plays per game = 960 times per season.

162 games times TWO chances per game = 234 chances per season.

Please don't tell me how strenuous it was for Torii Hunter in RF compared to Anthony Barr at OLB.

Do you think Hunter can play NFL OLB at age 39?

Apparently he could play MLB RF.

I think Papi mentioned also that outfielders run to back up other outfielders and to back up throws to the infield. You might be able to double that 234 number as far as mileage. 

 

We will know by mid-summer how the outfield affects Sano's hitting. The hot months of June and July should tell the story. If Sano is looking leg weary by mid game, they should just swap him and Plouffe in the field, and don't sweat too much about the defense at 3rd. 

[Rosterman]

I miss the old-timers game. Now we just celebrate a certain team from a certain year and the players are all two old to run around the field too much.

[USAFChief]

Sano might be a bad right fielder, he might be acceptable.

 

But I don't think it's too strenuous. I don't think a couple short sprints an inning or four previous to his third AB of a game is going to mean he doesn't have the legs for that AB any more.

 

In fact, I'm rather incredulous that theory exists.

[big dog]

I rely on Ortiz' considerable experience in the outfield and accept his expert opinion. Oh wait, I don't really care what he thinks. He couldn't even play first base.

[nicksaviking]

Sano might be a bad right fielder, he might be acceptable.

But I don't think it's too strenuous. I don't think a couple short sprints an inning or four previous to his third AB of a game is going to mean he doesn't have the legs for that AB any more.

In fact, I'm rather incredulous that theory exists.

Right, because more often than not the run out to their defensive position is the players most strenuous activity that half inning. And that's nothing compared to the pre-game warning track run.

 

Besides, if we really want to keep the outfielder's legs fresh, we should probably instead focus on getting all the strikeout arms that were sent packing recalled.

[sane16]

 

 

 

 

.

 Also, unlike football players who only play the field, baseball players have to bat as well...

Football players only play in the field?  Hey, what?

Baseball players don't have to shed 320 lb. blockers and tackle or cover 220 lb. world class sprinters.

But hey, athletes like Jon Kruk, Bartolo Colon and David Wells occasionally have to bat which could cause bilateral brain weakness.

Anyone who thinks playing outfield is as strenuous as playing outside linebacker has never played either.

[Dr. Evil]

Barr, Anthony  LB 6-5 255.....As a larger framed person, Barr covers running backs and slot receivers in man coverage. Anyone who thinks that is easier than playing outfield in MLB, hasn't got a clue!

Totally different sport and method of body prep. NFL guys prep for a much shorter career than MLB types.

[Dantes929]

"Josh Willingham hit 35 home runs and drove in 100 runs for the 2012 Twins, and people spent more time whining about his fielding deficiencies than saluting his power display."

I think I will go ahead and dispute this.    I whined very little in 2012 because the offensive offset was so great.    The 14 homers and the .210 batting average made his defense much less tolerable.     I don't think the bar is set very high for Sano defensively since we have had Young, Arcia and Willingham out there in the past without the benefit of Buxton and Rosario covering large amounts of the field.     If he just defends as well as D. Young but hits 35 homers and allows Park to hit 30 homers and Plouffe another 25 then I will not be focusing on his defense.     If he can't play it as well as D. Young then I don't think he will be out there long anyway.

[jimmer]

 

All evidence also indicates their judgement was good enough to get them baseball employment. Otherwise they would have been blog posters.

Well, Ryan and the rest of us have something in common.  None one of us have built a team that has reached the W Series.  

 

But since we should defer to the FO thinking at every turn, maybe all the debating on this site should cease. What's the point in debating/talking about decisions?

[David HK]

I concur with Dr. Papi's opinion.

[sane16]

 

Well, Ryan and the rest of us have something in common.  None one of us have built a team that has reached the W Series.  

 

But since we should defer to the FO thinking at every turn, maybe all the debating on this site should cease. What's the point in debating/talking about decisions?

We are debating. You think that failure to foresee the future performance of acquistions is a failure that only baseball executives could experience. I think that we all would suffer the same failures while making the same decisions. That is our debate.

[sane16]

 

Totally different sport and method of body prep. NFL guys prep for a much shorter career than MLB types.

How do you prep differently for a shorter career?

[Platoon]

Well, Ryan and the rest of us have something in common.  None one of us have built a team that has reached the W Series. This while true, was uncalled for! I am appalled! But I will get over it!l

[Platoon]

How do you prep differently for a shorter career?

You can! There is even a workout program for it! The Johnny Manziel. While the materials provided include the cigarettes and booze, you will have to find your own "personal trainer"!

[sane16]

 

You can! There is even a workout program for it! The Johnny Manziel. While the materials provided include the cigarettes and booze, you will have to find your own "personal trainer"!

I thought "one-and-done" referred to college careers.

I guess "one-and-done" pro careers do require special prep.

Other materials provided could be: 

1) a punching bag with his girlfriend's face painted on, and

2) a pager for 24-hour hooker service.

[TheLeviathan]

 

16 games times sixty defensive plays per game = 960 times per season.

162 games times TWO chances per game = 234 chances per season.

Please don't tell me how strenuous it was for Torii Hunter in RF compared to Anthony Barr at OLB.

Do you think Hunter can play NFL OLB at age 39?

Apparently he could play MLB RF.

 

Look, you're comparing apples to oranges, it just doesn't work.  The prep, the recovery time, the type of movement, etc. are all just radically different.

 

I don't necessarily buy the "he's too big" argument, but I'd consider it before I consider the one the Twins and many around here like to throw around: "If you can play the infield, you can play the outfield!"  That, is demonstrably false.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

"Josh Willingham hit 35 home runs and drove in 100 runs for the 2012 Twins, and people spent more time whining about his fielding deficiencies than saluting his power display."

I think I will go ahead and dispute this. I whined very little in 2012 because the offensive offset was so great. The 14 homers and the .210 batting average made his defense much less tolerable. I don't think the bar is set very high for Sano defensively since we have had Young, Arcia and Willingham out there in the past without the benefit of Buxton and Rosario covering large amounts of the field. If he just defends as well as D. Young but hits 35 homers and allows Park to hit 30 homers and Plouffe another 25 then I will not be focusing on his defense. If he can't play it as well as D. Young then I don't think he will be out there long anyway.

and if Sano doesn't get injured playing the field, and if the other two outfielders have the wheels to make up for his lack of range.

 

I'm torn on this. I value Plouffe at 3rd, but don't value Plouffe overall nearly as much as I value Sano. But I'm not sure Sano has an extended career at either 3rd or RF.

 

If Ortiz is right, shouldn't the Twins have moved Mauer to right and Sano to first? Since it seems Sano will end up at first anyways.

 

I dunno, maybe RF will work out fine for Sano

[Thrylos]

 

"Josh Willingham hit 35 home runs and drove in 100 runs for the 2012 Twins, and people spent more time whining about his fielding deficiencies than saluting his power display."

 

If the 2012 Twins won 30 more games and made it to the post-season and deep into the post season, I would bet that this would not be the case.  His defense was a sore thumb in a 99 loss team...

[jimmer]

 

We are debating. You think that failure to foresee the future performance of acquistions is a failure that only baseball executives could experience. I think that we all would suffer the same failures while making the same decisions. That is our debate.

Your side of the debate is appeal to authority.  That's not coming up with your own reasons or debating the merits of a decision, that's falling back on, 'Well whatever the Twins think and do is right." That is what you did:

 

'Santana was a good enough CF to keep Aaron Hicks in Rochester, so I'll go with the Twins evaluation of Santana's outfield abilities, while you can go with your own.'

 

followed by

 

'All evidence also indicates their judgement was good enough to get them baseball employment. Otherwise they would have been blog posters.'

 

So yes, while all teams get things right or wrong, to use a statement like, 'I'll take their evaluation over yours because they are are in baseball' doesn't really prove much because their evaluation of a players' abilities end up wrong quite a bit (as was pointed out and when it was pointed out, the surface was just scratched).   In other words, just because they work in the game doesn't mean their evaluation of a player's ability is always right.  They often aren't, especially over the last few years.  Hard to use the appeal to authority card for player evaluation discussion with what we've seen here the last few years.

[twinsnorth49]

I'm guessing there are pretty good reasons it's been 46 years since anyone decided to put a man the size of Sano in the outfield. 

[USAFChief]

I thought "one-and-done" referred to college careers.

I guess "one-and-done" pro careers do require special prep.

Other materials provided could be: 

1) a punching bag with his girlfriend's face painted on, and

2) a pager for 24-hour hooker service.

Actually,"one and done" is the name of my morning exercise routine.

 

I'm a big fan.

[Riverbrian]

The only way this is a problem is if the Twins refuse to adjust in case of extreme struggles. 

 

If you are sitting in St. Cloud and you need to go to Minneapolis and you turn west on I-94. That is a correctable mistake. You simply turn around and arrive at your destination. If you make it all the way to Fargo... Other folks in the car will be pissed at you but again... you can always turn around... get some more gas and make it to Minneapolis before nightfall. 

 

If you keep going all the way to the Pacific Ocean and drive your car into the Ocean. 

 

Now you've made a mistake that you can't recover from. 

 

 

[jimmer]

 

I'm guessing there are pretty good reasons it's been 46 years since anyone decided to put a man the size of Sano in the outfield. 

Yeah, I agree.

 

Especially during a time in baseball evolution where defense is being valued more and more. Seems to go way against the flow to say we're going to go with a guy Sano's size in the outfield.  Not to mention the fact he's never played OF in his professional career.  I'm guessing the guy 46 years ago had at least some experience out there before hitting the majors, though not sure.

 

As far as Frank Howard goes. He started 1409 games in the OF over his career.   That's a bit less than 9 seasons worth.  For his OF career, he had -95 total zone. That averages out to almost -11 TZ over 162 games started.  That is considered poor with -15 being awful.

 

Disclaimer: TZ is a good stat, but UZR and DRS are better.  Problem is, DRS and UZR aren't available for Howard at Fangraphs.

 

'TZ and TZL are both good metrics, although UZR and DRS are still considered the more accurate fielding metrics. However, UZR and DRS can only be calculated for modern-day players due to technology constraints, so TZ is the best historical fielding statistic available. If you want to compare a modern day player’s fielding with a player from the 1940s, TZ would be the statistic to use.'

[gunnarthor]

 

I'm guessing there are pretty good reasons it's been 46 years since anyone decided to put a man the size of Sano in the outfield. 

Yeah, 46 years ago players just weren't that big. Athletes are so much better now that these comparisons probably don't really work. 

 

The days of 6'0 180 lb power hitters like Jack Clark are over.  Players are much, much bigger than they were even 20 years ago - for a variety of reasons.  I don't know if Sano in the OF will work but I'd bet a lot of money that we will see a bunch of 250lb+ guys playing corner OF spots in the next decade. 

[sane16]

 

Your side of the debate is appeal to authority.  That's not coming up with your own reasons or debating the merits of a decision, that's falling back on, 'Well whatever the Twins think and do is right." That is what you did:

 

'Santana was a good enough CF to keep Aaron Hicks in Rochester, so I'll go with the Twins evaluation of Santana's outfield abilities, while you can go with your own.'

 

followed by

 

'All evidence also indicates their judgement was good enough to get them baseball employment. Otherwise they would have been blog posters.'

 

So yes, while all teams get things right or wrong, to use a statement like, 'I'll take their evaluation over yours because they are are in baseball' doesn't really prove much because their evaluation of a players' abilities end up wrong quite a bit (as was pointed out and when it was pointed out, the surface was just scratched).   In other words, just because they work in the game doesn't mean their evaluation of a player's ability is always right.  They often aren't, especially over the last few years.  Hard to use the appeal to authority card for player evaluation discussion with what we've seen here the last few years.

I have NEVER said or implied that "their evaluation of a player's ability is always right" or "'Well whatever the Twins think and do is right."  My point was only that I think that an evaluation of a player's skills, based on scout's evaluation is MORE LIKELY to be correct IN MY OPINION. That is not meant to ignore other opinions, just ME giving MORE credibility to opinions of professionals. You are certainly as entitled to your opinion as anyone, and we are all entitled to believe to what and to whom we think are more credible.

[Squirrel]

Look, you're comparing apples to oranges, it just doesn't work.  The prep, the recovery time, the type of movement, etc. are all just radically different.

 

I don't necessarily buy the "he's too big" argument, but I'd consider it before I consider the one the Twins and many around here like to throw around: "If you can play the infield, you can play the outfield!"  That, is demonstrably false.

While I don't buy the argument 'If he can play infield, he can play outfield,' I don't buy the argument that some are suggesting that he's more prone to get hurt playing the outfield than the infield due to his size, either. I also don't know yet if he can play the outfield to any degree of passable, so I'll be cautious before getting too worked up over this switch; a switch, btw, that I found/find ... perplexing. But I'll wait and see.

[Platoon]

The only way this is a problem is if the Twins refuse to adjust in case of extreme struggles. 

 

If you are sitting in St. Cloud and you need to go to Minneapolis and you turn west on I-94. That is a correctable mistake. You simply turn around and arrive at your destination. If you make it all the way to Fargo... Other folks in the car will be pissed at you but again... you can always turn around... get some more gas and make it to Minneapolis before nightfall. 

 

If you keep going all the way to the Pacific Ocean and drive your car into the Ocean. 

 

Now you've made a mistake that you can't recover from.

 

An even bigger mistake than you imagined! You are more likely in the Yellowstone River in Billings! For you sake, I hope the Grizzlies aren't White Sox fans?

[Hrbowski]

Apparently Trout shouldn't play the outfield....

[TheLeviathan]

I don't necessarily buy the injury angle either, but there is a lot about this I don't like.  

 

I'll tell you when, for me, this goes from head scratching to infuriating - the moment this gets revealed as temporary or a patch and not a genuinely permanent move.  Then I'm going to be pissed.

[Willihammer]

 

Sano might be a bad right fielder, he might be acceptable.

But I don't think it's too strenuous. I don't think a couple short sprints an inning or four previous to his third AB of a game is going to mean he doesn't have the legs for that AB any more.

In fact, I'm rather incredulous that theory exists.

Last season he pulled his hammy just running the bases though, when he was DH-ing.