Big Papi on the "Sano Experiment"

[DJSim22]

 

Source?

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/21680-big-papi-on-the-sano-experiment/page-5?do=findComment&comment=449774

[DJSim22]

In this case, I'm definitely skeptical of the move.  I think Sano should be at first base.  If he were to play outfield, he should have got some innings in during his years in the minors.  This smacks as a temporary move to me because they kept Plouffe.  I do find the injury and fatigue comments hilarious though. I think it would be more likely he gets hurt at third base or at the plate than in the outfield.  I'm far more concerned he just won't be a good outfielder.  

[Willihammer]

 

Sammy Sosa and Kevin Pillar injured themselves by sneezing.

Kevin Love injured himself doing knuckle push-ups

Other injuries have occurred from cutting a hand while separating frozen hamburgers, chipping a tooth on a frozen donut or running away from dream spiders.

 

So what was your point?

The hamstring pull could have been a fluke, true.

[Willihammer]

 

Have you ever played outfield?

Sano is more likely to dislocate his jaw yawning in the outfield, than to get tired in the outfield.

Not if you're doing your job. Every throw over to first base should be backed up. Every ball hit to the gap. Every foul ball hit 10 rows up. There's a fair amount of off the ball running, as Ortiz says.

[Willihammer]

 

Then if injury is a concern, it'll be something else when he's diving for balls at 3rd. All players at one time or another seem to have some kind of a muscle thing ... I don't think that is necessarily positional more than it is being prepped and stretched. And even then, it's a thing for everyone.

I disagree. I think it makes perfect sense that more strain would be put on the muscles and joints of a big man than a smaller man, particularly when you are talking about zero-to-sixty sprints, which describes baserunning and outfield running. 3B movements aren't as demanding.

Anyways if you don't believe me, what do you think Ortiz was going on about?

[twinsnorth49]

I agree for the most part that athletes are bigger than 20 years ago, however proportionally things are still very much the same. Pointing out guys like Mauer, Trout and Hamilton have all been successful being much larger than the average player in their respective positions doesn't make it some kind of universal truth, they are still exceptions. 

 

Just because the average player is bigger these days hardly means we're going to eventually see 6'3, 230 lb short stops,   7 foot catchers or as in this case, 6'5 270 lb outfielders as the norm. I think that's just flat out wrong. 

 

Ultimately that's all just a bunch of noise anyway, this is really just about whether Sano can adequately play RF, which I have strong doubts he can. How much it's really going to matter is probably the bigger debate.

[twinsnorth49]

 

I disagree. I think it makes perfect sense that more strain would be put on the muscles and joints of a big man than a smaller man, particularly when you are talking about zero-to-sixty sprints, which describes baserunning and outfield running. 3B movements aren't as demanding.

Anyways if you don't believe me, what do you think Ortiz was going on about?

Agreed, that's pretty basic physics if you ask me, and I'm no physics major. The pounding on the joints of a man the size of Sano running at full sprint numerous times a game is going to be significant.  It's a pounding enough on a 200lb frame, let alone 60-75 lbs heavier.

[Squirrel]

I disagree. I think it makes perfect sense that more strain would be put on the muscles and joints of a big man than a smaller man, particularly when you are talking about zero-to-sixty sprints, which describes baserunning and outfield running. 3B movements aren't as demanding.

Anyways if you don't believe me, what do you think Ortiz was going on about?

Well, I really can't put a lot of stock in what Ortiz has to say about what the Twins do, tbh. As I've said many times, while I'm not a fan of this move, I'm going to reserve judgement until I see how it goes for a bit. And while I'm also not a 'the FO is right no matter what,' I think those who have worked closely with Sano over the years to be better able to determine what he is and is not capable of. Do you really believe the Twins have so little regard for the well being of one of their star players?

[Dantes929]

 

Agreed, that's pretty basic physics if you ask me, and I'm no physics major. The pounding on the joints of a man the size of Sano running at full sprint numerous times a game is going to be significant.  It's a pounding enough on a 200lb frame, let alone 60-75 lbs heavier.

Again, is it more likely to pull a muscle running full sprints 2 or three times a game as a DH that is only standing or sitting most of the other 3 hours or for a guy that sprints several times a game along with light jogging and coasting over to back up throws.   

As far as big guys sprinting numerous times pounding on the joints there are much bigger and taller guys playing in the NBA as well as the NFL.    

[sane16]

Agreed, that's pretty basic physics if you ask me, and I'm no physics major. The pounding on the joints of a man the size of Sano running at full sprint numerous times a game is going to be significant.  It's a pounding enough on a 200lb frame, let alone 60-75 lbs heavier.

I am an ex-engineer, and what you are not factoring in is that Sano's size gives him more support structure to withstand the pounding.

Tall, massive buildings don't collapse because they have massive foundations.

[Platoon]

 

 

The easiest thing in the world to be is a skeptic".

I really doubt that's true!

[TheLeviathan]

Right now we're truly guessing ... maybe in an educated fashion ... but nonetheless guessing how this is for Sano in the short and the long term.

His ability to play out there and the consequences are guesses, but we can analyze the rationale. It is indefensible to move arguably your greatest asset to another position to optimize your roster temporarily. If he starts shuffling to first or third again by July this entire idea is indefensible.

 

You want to make him an outfielder, ok, then make him one because you believe it best for him. That's how you treat your most important asset. But your greatest asset shouldn't be the square peg you start trying to jam into the round hole to make the puzzle fit. Pick a different, less important, piece for that.

[Platoon]

Don't forget other crazy ones:  carrying luggage, feather from a pillow in the eye.

My baseball career was ended by leaning over the recliner to pick up a newspaper! My Twins career was ended very prematurely by my baseball career!

[sane16]

 

I am an ex-engineer, and what you are not factoring in is that Sano's size gives him more support structure to withstand the pounding.
Tall, massive buildings don't collapse because they have massive foundations.

Shaquille O'Neal ..
Height=7'1", Weight=325 lbs.; 
Played HS, College and NBA basketball for 26 years until he was 39 years-old.
Tell me again about the pounding on Sano's joints.

[ken]

The concern that a 22 year old can't handle the running required to be an OF'er should be a worry of a bigger problem - his current weight. I think a little extra running would be good for him. Big Papi's comments in Reusse''s column today is also good for Sano to hear.

[USAFChief]

His ability to play out there and the consequences are guesses, but we can analyze the rationale. It is indefensible to move arguably your greatest asset to another position to optimize your roster temporarily. If he starts shuffling to first or third again by July this entire idea is indefensible.

You want to make him an outfielder, ok, then make him one because you believe it best for him. That's how you treat your most important asset. But your greatest asset shouldn't be the square peg you start trying to jam into the round hole to make the puzzle fit. Pick a different, less important, piece for that.

This is a sports team.

 

You treat your most important asset in the way you believe ends up winning you the most games.

[Squirrel]

 

His ability to play out there and the consequences are guesses, but we can analyze the rationale. It is indefensible to move arguably your greatest asset to another position to optimize your roster temporarily. If he starts shuffling to first or third again by July this entire idea is indefensible.

You want to make him an outfielder, ok, then make him one because you believe it best for him. That's how you treat your most important asset. But your greatest asset shouldn't be the square peg you start trying to jam into the round hole to make the puzzle fit. Pick a different, less important, piece for that.

Again, part of your argument here is an 'if.' I'm not defending the move, here, I'm merely suggesting we let it play out and see. Boston has been moving Ramirez around to positions he's never played before, and yes, the outfield 'experiment' for them was disastrous, but I'd put Sano in a higher category than Ramirez. But we'll have to wait and see.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Again, part of your argument here is an 'if.' I'm not defending the move, here, I'm merely suggesting we let it play out and see. Boston has been moving Ramirez around to positions he's never played before, and yes, the outfield 'experiment' for them was disastrous, but I'd put Sano in a higher category than Ramirez. But we'll have to wait and see.

 

We don't have to just use Hanley Ramirez.  Our own very capable SS looked lost in the outfield. Yeah, I want to see things play out, I'm giving the Twins the benefit of the doubt as to why they are doing it, but Vegas won't get any money from me that this is going to turn out well.

[TheLeviathan]

 

This is a sports team.

You treat your most important asset in the way you believe ends up winning you the most games.

 

And that is to toss him at a new position he's never played before in his second year in the big leagues because you REALLY want to keep your average 3B around and you really like a Korean slugger?  That's....dubious.  We'll see how it plays out, I hope for all our sakes we don't really regret this because there is a better than decent chance we do.

[USAFChief]

And that is to toss him at a new position he's never played before in his second year in the big leagues because you REALLY want to keep your average 3B around and you really like a Korean slugger? That's....dubious. We'll see how it plays out, I hope for all our sakes we don't really regret this because there is a better than decent chance we do.

Whether the decision is correct or not is different from why they made it.

 

Some here argue from the position of "what is best for Sano?" ( or Trevor May in another thread.). That shouldn't be why a sports team makes decisions. They seem to think this is the route to the most wins. Perhaps they're right, perhaps they're wrong.

[old nurse]

 

We don't have to just use Hanley Ramirez.  Our own very capable SS looked lost in the outfield. Yeah, I want to see things play out, I'm giving the Twins the benefit of the doubt as to why they are doing it, but Vegas won't get any money from me that this is going to turn out well.

SSS But Santana UZR150 outfield  -10.7  shortstop -13.6

bref dwar  outfield 0.4  ss -1.1

[Willihammer]

 

Well, I really can't put a lot of stock in what Ortiz has to say about what the Twins do, tbh. As I've said many times, while I'm not a fan of this move, I'm going to reserve judgement until I see how it goes for a bit. And while I'm also not a 'the FO is right no matter what,' I think those who have worked closely with Sano over the years to be better able to determine what he is and is not capable of. Do you really believe the Twins have so little regard for the well being of one of their star players?

I think the Twins are sometimes too concerned about the egos of their highest paid players at the expense of the kids. Moving Sano to the outfield feels like a compromise move to me, and not a very well thought out one but I guess we'll know soon enough.

[sane16]

 

SSS But Santana UZR150 outfield  -10.7  shortstop -13.6

bref dwar  outfield 0.4  ss -1.1

WTF does that mean to the statistically challenged?

[Twodogs]

 

I think it's unlikely Sano will spend more than two seasons in the outfield. I think there is a negligible chance that a season or two in the outfield will negatively affect his career. I think the Twins are doing this only because they feel it's the best way to optimize their current roster. I think this is an excellent example of how everything gets way overanalyzed on fan web sites. I think don't worry, be happy.

I think it is unlikely that Sano spends more than 2 seasons in the field at any position before he is relegated to full time DH.  And in order to do that full time he will probably need to deal with the 35% K rate.  He is still a very young player and the Twins need to be cautious with what they do with him if they want him to develop to the best of his abilities.

[Twodogs]

 

Well, I really can't put a lot of stock in what Ortiz has to say about what the Twins do, tbh. As I've said many times, while I'm not a fan of this move, I'm going to reserve judgement until I see how it goes for a bit. And while I'm also not a 'the FO is right no matter what,' I think those who have worked closely with Sano over the years to be better able to determine what he is and is not capable of. Do you really believe the Twins have so little regard for the well being of one of their star players?

I think some of the front offices out there play fantasy baseball with their real baseball teams to be honest with you. I mean some FO's do crazy things to get a certain player into the lineup.  Lets be totally honest in the fact that the Twins did not have a real good hitting team last year, they were out scored all year and they had a negative WAR as a team all year.  Their pitching was not great but was servicable and they were ok realistically because the team they fielded could catch the ball.  You had Hicks, Rosario, and Buxton for part of the year running around in the OF catching the ball.  Put a full season of Arcia and Sano out there and the pitching staff will look a lot worse.  I mean when the Twins got good the last time they had Hunter, Jones and Lawton running around out in the outfield catching all of the pitch to contact balls that were flying out there.  I mean even Ortiz was realistically cut by the Twins because he couldn't play the field back then.  Yeah he could hit, but no catchy.  Now only if the Twins would have just moved Ortiz to full time DH and didn't sit there and try to compare him to Dougie over at 1B they would have analyized his best attributes right from the get go.  So to answer your question, I don't think FO's really give a crap about the players, they get what they can out of them to win, that is until they have them signed to a giant contract and at that point in time they become more valuable because they sell jerseys.

[Squirrel]

 

I think some of the front offices out there play fantasy baseball with their real baseball teams to be honest with you. I mean some FO's do crazy things to get a certain player into the lineup.  Lets be totally honest in the fact that the Twins did not have a real good hitting team last year, they were out scored all year and they had a negative WAR as a team all year.  Their pitching was not great but was servicable and they were ok realistically because the team they fielded could catch the ball.  You had Hicks, Rosario, and Buxton for part of the year running around in the OF catching the ball.  Put a full season of Arcia and Sano out there and the pitching staff will look a lot worse.  I mean when the Twins got good the last time they had Hunter, Jones and Lawton running around out in the outfield catching all of the pitch to contact balls that were flying out there.  I mean even Ortiz was realistically cut by the Twins because he couldn't play the field back then.  Yeah he could hit, but no catchy.  Now only if the Twins would have just moved Ortiz to full time DH and didn't sit there and try to compare him to Dougie over at 1B they would have analyized his best attributes right from the get go.  So to answer your question, I don't think FO's really give a crap about the players, they get what they can out of them to win, that is until they have them signed to a giant contract and at that point in time they become more valuable because they sell jerseys.

I'm not so sure your post addressed my question. So, are you saying that they ARE disregarding Sano's physical well-being to put up a better hitting team?

 

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I don't necessarily buy the injury angle either, but there is a lot about this I don't like.

 

I'll tell you when, for me, this goes from head scratching to infuriating - the moment this gets revealed as temporary or a patch and not a genuinely permanent move. Then I'm going to be pissed.

im not necessarily convinced he's more likely to be injured because of his size, more that I think he's more likely to make a foolish decision due to lack of experience and trying to prove himself that could result in an injury.

 

And yeah if they trade Plouffe at the deadline for a bag of balls and a Loogy I'll be just livid.

[Twodogs]

 

I'm not so sure your post addressed my question. So, are you saying that they ARE disregarding Sano's physical well-being to put up a better hitting team?

I don't think they are regarding it or disregarding it.  I don't think they care one way or the other, they are just trying to put the best hitting lineup out there.  What they are disregarding is the ability to put the best team that they can in the field and that in the end could cost them as typically defense, throwing and catching, doesn't slump where hitting does.

[HitInAPinch]

... Sano just booted one........

 

That should get things cranking again  

[sane16]

 

... Sano just booted one........

 

That should get things cranking again  

SSS...SSS....SSS.....SSS