Pete Rose Sinned Against Baseball. And That's Enough.

[Greggory Masterson]

Pete Rose should not be in the Hall of Fame. He should not be celebrated. As a player and a manager, he committed a cardinal sin against Baseball. He broke the Golden Rule. And somehow, that seems to be brushed past when discussing the most famous player to ever break Baseball’s Golden Rule.

I’m not here to talk about Rose’s off-field foibles. Between you, me, and the wall, I fall more on the side of ignoring those things in reference to Hall of Fame candidacy. What Rose did as a player and as a manager requires Baseball to permanently excise him. And too often, that goes overlooked.

I’m not breaking new ground here. I don’t have any secret insight. But I want to talk about gambling—the one thing Baseball has ever put its foot down on.

When people talk about Rose’s great sin against Baseball, it’s often framed around his moral character. We borrow the Golden Rule terminology from world religion and philosophy as a euphemism for gambling on baseball. We use words like “the integrity of the game.” But the “integrity of the game” isn’t some moral standard; it’s a pragmatic one. When we say integrity, it’s not about doing the right thing; it’s using the original definition—the structural foundation of the sport.

The day that gambling seeps onto the field of play is the day Baseball dies. This isn’t about right and wrong. It’s about the game continuing to exist.

Intrinsic to our love of baseball—and sports in general—is a basic assumption: anything can happen. Two groups square off against each other in a battle of wits, talent, effort, strength, and guile. May the best man win. Any given Sunday. Whatever the coach in Miracle said. And we have the pleasure to watch it play out.

That’s why we buy tickets. It’s why we pay for an entire yearlong cable package subscription just to watch our hometown nine play all summer. We get to watch the best athletes in the world do what they’ve trained for decades to perfect. And we don’t know how it will end. It’s sweet, heartwarming even, to watch our favorite boys win. And it’s agonizing, heart-wrenching even, to watch them lose. And so much of that emotion is learning our favorite team’s fate in real-time. We ride the roller coaster along with them. They go up, and so do we. They plummet down, and so do we.

But what if it was all preordained? What if there were no feats of strength or clever tricks or mental games? We would instead be watching WWE or a low-budget movie.

Now there’s nothing entirely wrong with WWE or cheap films as a form of entertainment, but that’s not baseball. It’s not Baseball.

Don’t get me wrong; one single person gambling on the games that they play or manager, whether they’re only betting on their team to win or not, isn’t enough to transform MLB into professional wrestling. But the true structure isn’t the only thing that matters, either.

As soon as the people stop believing that the game in front of them is real, it’s as good as dead. And that’s what Baseball is fighting against. That is why the game needs to take these sins seriously. It doesn’t just make you feel icky—it threatens the institution.

And so those who threaten that game need to be banished. They’re damned. There’s no purgatory for those who break the one rule. It’s nothing personal, just business. You cannot be associated with the sport after doing something that threatens to ruin it. It does not matter how many hits you had or how hard you hustled or how much children loved you. You voluntarily chose to separate yourself from Baseball. You committed a mortal sin.

And yes, that sin against Baseball is far worse than other popular sins against Baseball. Steroids don’t hold a candle to the dangers associated with gambling. The winners being the baseball players who take the most drugs is a time-honored tradition, and the games are still decided on who is the best, strongest, and most focused. That’s far preferrable to the winners being the players the gamblers choose to win that day.

And the league aligning itself with gambling services as advertisers is also a separate topic my own thoughts on which aren’t relevant here, but it’s brought up as a strawman in this discussion so we might as well address it. Put simply, the league encouraging fans to gamble has no bearing on the game on the field. If there’s ever evidence that the league is influencing games for any gambling-associated purpose, I want all involved parties burned at the stake as well. But until that happens, MLB partnering with those services is irrelevant.

There is no coming back from what Rose did as a player and as a coach. Gambling on the game (specifically) does not make him a bad person. But it does make him a sinner against the sacred game. Baseball, with a capital B, cannot afford to welcome Rose back into the fold. That’s why it’s Baseball’s Golden Rule. Not petty morality, but an existential guard against ruin.

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[Guest]

Granted, Rose sinned, and on that point there's no disagreement.  But, that's not the end of the story, is it?  The question today is the importance of forgiving. The forgiveness principle is illustrated in passages such as Matthew 6, which states, "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses".  Who can say they have not sinned?

[USAFChief]

Concur 100 percent with this article. 

There can be no forgiving or forgetting baseball's worst transgression.

 

[sandbun]

We've entered a new Gilded Age where consequences aren't a thing for certain people. MLB shouldn't be participating. Manfield made a mistake making him eligible, hopefully the voters fix it by not allowing him in anyhow. 

[jmlease1]

27 minutes ago, Minderbinder said:

Granted, Rose sinned, and on that point there's no disagreement.  But, that's not the end of the story, is it?  The question today is the importance of forgiving. The forgiveness principle is illustrated in passages such as Matthew 6, which states, "For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses".  Who can say they have not sinned?

But for forgiveness to be granted and mercy shown, doesn't there also need to be contrition shown, behavior changed, and full honesty and recognition made? I'm not going to get into the religious implications here, but at the end of the day, Pete Rose couldn't stop himself from gambling, he couldn't stop lying about what he did, and he could never, ever actually truly admit that he was wrong. Even the late in life "I'm sorry I bet on baseball" signings were a sham, because it was just another way to make a buck for him.

There's an odor of "yeah, he sinned but we can let it pass now" to this argument and I think Greggory's real point is, for Baseball this is something that should never be forgiven. And it's a fair one, IMHO. Let individuals forgive him or not based on their beliefs, but institutionally, Baseball still excluding him and the Black Sox is actually a good thing.

Baseball could have been destroyed by the Black Sox scandal, and part of how it survived was to make gambling on it by people in Baseball the #1 no-no in the sport. It's not like Rose didn't know. It's not like there's wiggle room and exceptions littered across the rule. It's not confusing or complicated.

And to the people who think it's unacceptable to have a Hall of Fame that doesn't have the "Hit King" in it...I'm pretty sure he's not blacklisted from any mention in Cooperstown. Let the Hall reference his accomplishments as a player and the teams he played for that won titles and so on. They should show the full history of Baseball, which includes Pete Rose. They should also reference his ban from the game and why. Doesn't mean he should be honored by induction. Because at the end of the end, that's what induction into the Hall of Fame really is: being granted an honorific that puts you into a special class. It neither creates nor removes what was done in history.

 

[jimmyc]

Damn Gregg!  Well put.  I want him to be a baseball pariah forever. 

[DJL44]

Why do I feel like Pete Rose is going to get inducted and Barry Bonds will still be on the outside looking in? Oh wait, I know why I feel like that. Nevermind.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

Full disclosure: I am a huge Pete Rose fan.

The things that made Pete Rose great are the same things that people love about Kobe Bryant, Michael Jordan, et. al. - the supreme ultra-competitiveness. Unfortunately with that narrow thought process comes huge warts and problems. Gambling problems is a common theme these individuals.

I am not here to make excuses. Pete bet on baseball. By all accounts he always bet on his team to win, never to lose. He never threw games to make money. You can make your own decision on how fair the penalty is.

The baseball HOF has always been political and rarely about quality. No clear directions on what should be considered when voting on worthiness. Guys like Greg Maddux not getting 100% of the vote because a few knuckleheads and their moronic views. MLB deciding who gets into the HOF when they have no connection to the voting process... If MLB had similar directions to the NFL (only on-field actions should be considered), this discussion would be a lot easier.

I think the HOF is just as much about history than celebration. I think Pete's on-field accomplishments make him a no-brainer for the HOF. I also think his plaque should say "Pete Rose, retired as all-time hit leader, was banned from baseball for gambling". Give the good and the bad. 

[Schmoeman5]

Pete Rose won't be inducted into the HOF since he no longer is alive. His accomplishments and name can be. I normally stand on the absolutely not side here. Rose was always going to be the test case. If they choose to vote him in, then the floodgates will open for all of the past transgressors. Be it gambling, steroids or just all around guys who weren't liked by writers who vote. The Old Timers committee will elect him.

[DJL44]

15 minutes ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

I am not here to make excuses. Pete bet on baseball. By all accounts he always bet on his team to win, never to lose. He never threw games to make money. You can make your own decision on how fair the penalty is.

Every game he didn't place a bet, he was signaling to the bookies that he thought his team would lose. I don't think he threw any games, but he certainly didn't have the same incentive to win that game. If he knows he's going to place a bet tomorrow, he's going to manage the team differently today when there isn't any money at stake.

There are so many reasons not to honor Pete Rose with a spot in the Hall of Fame. Off the field, he's a pathological liar, a convicted felon, and a statutory rapist. On the field he corked his bat and probably used steroids. Oh, and he bet on baseball games as a player and as a manager.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

Quote

The day that gambling seeps onto the field of play is the day Baseball dies. 

It really is this simple. Even if you cling to Rose only betting on his team to win, he certainly managed those games differently than he managed games in which he didn't bet on his team to win. You can't do that, end of story. 

It's called the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum. Pete and his on-field accomplishments are already in the museum. That's what he deserves. 

[TFRazor]

Just remember, while Manfred can make him eligible, he can't put him in. That will come down to the writers who vote. They view themselves as the guardians of baseball's purity. I find it highly unlikely that he's going to find enough support any time soon.

[IndianaTwin]

21 minutes ago, TFRazor said:

Just remember, while Manfred can make him eligible, he can't put him in. That will come down to the writers who vote. They view themselves as the guardians of baseball's purity. I find it highly unlikely that he's going to find enough support any time soon.

To clarify, it will come down to one of the "Committees," which is made up mostly of former players. I'm wondering if that's to his advantage or disadvantage.

 

[DJL44]

18 minutes ago, TFRazor said:

Just remember, while Manfred can make him eligible, he can't put him in. That will come down to the writers who vote. They view themselves as the guardians of baseball's purity. I find it highly unlikely that he's going to find enough support any time soon.

The writers won't have any say on Pete Rose. He's only eligible for Era Committee voting. That means he has to get past the screeners who make the Era Committee ballot. Then 12 of the 16 committee members need to be convinced that he deserves one of the 3 votes they get to distribute among 8 players. They won't vote on Rose until December, 2027 at the earliest.

[IndianaTwin]

From the OP (italics added): "I’m not breaking new ground here. I don’t have any secret insight. But I want to talk about gambling—the one thing Baseball has ever put its foot down on."

-----------------------------------------

To me, "putting its foot down" has become less meaningful when one considers the sources of advertising revenue on telecasts.

(This comment was not brought to you by DraftKings.)

[IndianaTwin]

38 minutes ago, CCHOF5yearstoolate said:

....

Are you already campaigning for Correa? Caitlin Clark?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

But for forgiveness to be granted and mercy shown, doesn't there also need to be contrition shown, behavior changed, and full honesty and recognition made? I'm not going to get into the religious implications here, but at the end of the day, Pete Rose couldn't stop himself from gambling, he couldn't stop lying about what he did, and he could never, ever actually truly admit that he was wrong. Even the late in life "I'm sorry I bet on baseball" signings were a sham, because it was just another way to make a buck for him.

There's an odor of "yeah, he sinned but we can let it pass now" to this argument and I think Greggory's real point is, for Baseball this is something that should never be forgiven. And it's a fair one, IMHO. Let individuals forgive him or not based on their beliefs, but institutionally, Baseball still excluding him and the Black Sox is actually a good thing.

Baseball could have been destroyed by the Black Sox scandal, and part of how it survived was to make gambling on it by people in Baseball the #1 no-no in the sport. It's not like Rose didn't know. It's not like there's wiggle room and exceptions littered across the rule. It's not confusing or complicated.

And to the people who think it's unacceptable to have a Hall of Fame that doesn't have the "Hit King" in it...I'm pretty sure he's not blacklisted from any mention in Cooperstown. Let the Hall reference his accomplishments as a player and the teams he played for that won titles and so on. They should show the full history of Baseball, which includes Pete Rose. They should also reference his ban from the game and why. Doesn't mean he should be honored by induction. Because at the end of the end, that's what induction into the Hall of Fame really is: being granted an honorific that puts you into a special class. It neither creates nor removes what was done in history.

 

Contrition, recognition and regret?  I share the heartfelt letter Pete Rose penned to MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred, not just as a plea for forgiveness but as a reflection of his enduring love for the game, his regrets, and his dream to one day be considered for the Hall of Fame. This letter is preserved here as an archive of his journey—a deeply personal appeal from a man who remains, for better or worse, an enduring part of baseball’s story.

To:
Rob Manfred
Commissioner of Major League Baseball

I have apologized many times, both for betting on baseball games while managing the Cincinnati Reds and then for denying that I did. I am writing today for three reasons. First, because at my age I want to be 100% sure that you understand how much I mean it when I say that I’m sorry. Second, to ask for your forgiveness. And third, because I still think every day about what it would mean to be considered for the Hall of Fame.

The two most important people in my life were my dad and my manager, Sparky. My dad introduced me to baseball and Sparky taught me how to play it. Both set an example for me about how to live my life that I sometimes have failed to live up to. I think every day about them. I know I disappointed them and I hope that they would still be proud of me. What helped set me down the right path was Commissioner Giamatti telling me to reconfigure my life and the belief that they were watching me and I didn’t want to disappoint them anymore.

I also know that I disappointed many Reds fans and baseball fans. Besides spending time with my kids and my partner, there’s nothing that made me happier than playing baseball in front of fans. That I let them down and brought shame to the sport we all love is something I think about every single day.

It is among my greatest regrets that I let down fans who believed in me and who love baseball. It is also among my greatest regrets that I let down my teammates – and everyone I ever shared a baseball field with. You can’t imagine how painful it is when I see my teammates from all the great teams I played on and players I played against go about their lives in ways I wanted to. I want to be a part of that too and I know I probably never will. I am so grateful for the time I shared with them on and off the field. Nothing replaces it. People think you move on after you leave the game. You do in many ways. But the most important parts of baseball should grow even stronger. I screwed that up.

I am asking for your forgiveness. Despite my many mistakes, I am so proud of what I accomplished as a baseball player – I am the Hit King and it is my dream to be considered for the Hall of Fame. Like all of us, I believe in accountability. I am 81 years old and know that I have been held accountable and that I hold myself accountable. I write now to ask for another chance.

 

Nothing will ever erase the mistakes Jackson and Rose made.  But we should be beyond that now.

[NYCTK]

The complete permeation of sports betting into everything to do with sports made this ban harder and harder to justify. I find the constant barrage of sports betting odds really sickening and luckily don't have an addictive personality but MLB is all in and is even sending out game odds from their official Twitter account.

I think there's a time and place for gambling, and 9 pm from your couch isn't it, and is just one more sign of the decay of this country's moral fabric. 

This comment brought to you by DraftKings, the official sportsbook of Major League Baseball. 

I personally don't care about Pete Rose getting unbanned for his sports betting. Now the rape? That's another discussion. 

[NYCTK]

15 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

From the OP (italics added): "I’m not breaking new ground here. I don’t have any secret insight. But I want to talk about gambling—the one thing Baseball has ever put its foot down on."

-----------------------------------------

To me, "putting its foot down" has become less meaningful when one considers the sources of advertising revenue on telecasts.

(This comment was not brought to you by DraftKings.)

God damnit, you made the same joke but beat me by a lot. 

[TFRazor]

21 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

The writers won't have any say on Pete Rose. He's only eligible for Era Committee voting. That means he has to get past the screeners who make the Era Committee ballot. Then 12 of the 16 committee members need to be convinced that he deserves one of the 3 votes they get to distribute among 8 players. They won't vote on Rose until December, 2027 at the earliest.

Excellent point. I stand corrected

[Rod Carews Birthday]

Let's see.  It took Shoeless Joe Jackson how long after his career (and death) to be reinstated before being considered for the HOF?  Let's have Pete Rose wait that long as well.  I would prefer never, but I'm willing to compromise. 

[DJL44]

13 minutes ago, Minderbinder said:

I have apologized many times, both for betting on baseball games while managing the Cincinnati Reds and then for denying that I did. I am writing today for three reasons.

Still denying he bet on games while he played for the Reds. Still lying.

BTW - Mark McGwire apologized and his support went from 25% to 0% overnight. The lesson I've learned is if you really want something in this world and don't care about anyone else, never admit fault, never accept responsibility and never apologize. You're much more likely to get what you want than if you admit what you did and say you're sorry. Forgiveness is a sucker's bet.

[NYCTK]

11 minutes ago, Minderbinder said:

Contrition, recognition and regret?  I share the heartfelt letter Pete Rose penned to MLB Commissioner Rob Manfred, not just as a plea for forgiveness but as a reflection of his enduring love for the game, his regrets, and his dream to one day be considered for the Hall of Fame. This letter is preserved here as an archive of his journey—a deeply personal appeal from a man who remains, for better or worse, an enduring part of baseball’s story.

To:
Rob Manfred
Commissioner of Major League Baseball

I have apologized many times, both for betting on baseball games while managing the Cincinnati Reds and then for denying that I did. I am writing today for three reasons. First, because at my age I want to be 100% sure that you understand how much I mean it when I say that I’m sorry. Second, to ask for your forgiveness. And third, because I still think every day about what it would mean to be considered for the Hall of Fame.

The two most important people in my life were my dad and my manager, Sparky. My dad introduced me to baseball and Sparky taught me how to play it. Both set an example for me about how to live my life that I sometimes have failed to live up to. I think every day about them. I know I disappointed them and I hope that they would still be proud of me. What helped set me down the right path was Commissioner Giamatti telling me to reconfigure my life and the belief that they were watching me and I didn’t want to disappoint them anymore.

I also know that I disappointed many Reds fans and baseball fans. Besides spending time with my kids and my partner, there’s nothing that made me happier than playing baseball in front of fans. That I let them down and brought shame to the sport we all love is something I think about every single day.

It is among my greatest regrets that I let down fans who believed in me and who love baseball. It is also among my greatest regrets that I let down my teammates – and everyone I ever shared a baseball field with. You can’t imagine how painful it is when I see my teammates from all the great teams I played on and players I played against go about their lives in ways I wanted to. I want to be a part of that too and I know I probably never will. I am so grateful for the time I shared with them on and off the field. Nothing replaces it. People think you move on after you leave the game. You do in many ways. But the most important parts of baseball should grow even stronger. I screwed that up.

I am asking for your forgiveness. Despite my many mistakes, I am so proud of what I accomplished as a baseball player – I am the Hit King and it is my dream to be considered for the Hall of Fame. Like all of us, I believe in accountability. I am 81 years old and know that I have been held accountable and that I hold myself accountable. I write now to ask for another chance.

 

Nothing will ever erase the mistakes Jackson and Rose made.  But we should be beyond that now.

He only ever admitted to betting on baseball when he could make money off of it with a book deal. Pete Rose was an absolute scumbag and no one should read that letter and put any weight in it. He lived a liar, and he died a liar. 

I'm happy, elated even, that he died not getting elected to the Hall of Fame because he didn't deserve that satisfaction.

Bad people deserve bad outcomes. Unfortunately we see too little of that in this world but Pete got what he deserved.

Further, I think we should be calling Ichiro the Hit King. Pete doesn't deserve that title. 

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, Minderbinder said:

 

 

Nothing will ever erase the mistakes Jackson and Rose made.  But we should be beyond that now.

 Nothing will ever erase the mistakes Jackson and Rose made 

 Thus we shouldn't be beyond that now.

Or ever.

[Bad News TC Bears]

I think what he did in betting as a manager is terrible..... But what he accomplished as a player is greatness! 

He should be in the Hall of Fame as a player. It's unfair to his family and former teammates to leave him out especially now that he has passed away. He didn't use steroids.... He only failed for being greedy as a manager / person. 

We all do things we wish we could get back and change... Rose regretted what he did ... Especially as he was older.

[tony&rodney]

Someone mentioned betting and steroids in the same sentence. Betting is on an individual and absolutely affects the game. Betting to win doesn't obscure the damage. Rose would use his entire pitching staff if necessary to tilt the games, a practice not even used in Game 7 of a World Series contest. The 3 batter minimum would have messed up the betting. Rose was a terrific baseball player who specifically forfeited his right to ever be considered for baseball honors. Let him and the entire case RIP.

Steroids is ultimately on the individual, for sure. However, one cannot totally dismiss the role of MLB and Bud Selig specifically in advertising and promoting the great steroid home run chase between McGuire and Sosa. Nobody who followed baseball was surprised by the ensueing flood of steroid usage. It was a time when steroids were widely advertised and suggested as a means to healing and building strength.  It is not a mystery why a leaked positive test for David Ortiz failed to keep him out of the Hall of Fame while the poster player of steroids, who was tested far more than anyone ever, never had a positive test and is still not in the Hall of Fame. Because of the active role MLB and Bud Selig, steroids should not be an issue for admittance for those players who were active during that era. Later times, with widespread specific notice of punishments, should be looked at differently.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

Did he try to charge Manfred for the autograph?  Wouldn't really be shocking in his case. 

He was only contrite to sell books and make one last attempt to get in.  He deserves his fate. 

People will say "what about this guy or that guy?".  I don't care.  Rose was repeatedly a scumbag in numerous situations, not just while he was a manager.  Putting more people like that in doesn't make it better.  It only makes it worse. 

[Greggory Masterson]

15 minutes ago, Bad News TC Bears said:

I think what he did in betting as a manager is terrible..... But what he accomplished as a player is greatness! 

He should be in the Hall of Fame as a player. It's unfair to his family and former teammates to leave him out especially now that he has passed away. He didn't use steroids.... He only failed for being greedy as a manager / person. 

We all do things we wish we could get back and change... Rose regretted what he did ... Especially as he was older.

I’m going to mostly stay out of the comments because I’ve said my piece, but I want to make sure people know that Rose gambled on baseball games that he played in. We don’t get to use that escape hatch. He violated Baseball’s Golden Rule as a player.

https://www.espn.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/13114874/notebook-obtained-lines-shows-pete-rose-bet-baseball-player-1986

[danielp19653]

I personally have no more issue with Rose being eligible to be voted in than any steroid user. Both groups broke the rules both groups affected the integrity of the game (I personally disagree with the author that betting on your own teams is somehow substantially worse than juicing). MLB has made it very clear they're fully embracing gambling so it makes no sense to not allow them eligibility. Let the players who played with him decide, should be the same with steroid users. In 10-20 years let them decide on Bonds, Sosa, A-Rod, etc.

[cmoss84]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

There are so many reasons not to honor Pete Rose with a spot in the Hall of Fame. Off the field, he's a pathological liar, a convicted felon, and a statutory rapist. On the field he corked his bat and probably used steroids. Oh, and he bet on baseball games as a player and as a manager.

This is a slippery slope many people like to be very picky/choosey on. You could mention quite a few individuals from a variety of sports, and their HOFs, and come to the same conclusion. Also, have you done research on every player in baseball's HOF? Did anyone else have character concerns or a history of crime? Have some athletes gotten away with worse over the last 150 years? Professional athletes need to be looked at as such when this process occurs every year. I battle the same concept with Michael Jackson. I have to only listen to his music as a musical prodigy. If you are going to judge everyone, then judge EVERYONE.