Pete Rose Sinned Against Baseball. And That's Enough.

[DJL44]

39 minutes ago, Bad News TC Bears said:

I think what he did in betting as a manager is terrible..... But what he accomplished as a player is greatness! 

He also placed bet as a player. See my link above.

[CCHOF5yearstoolate]

As much as I detest how gambling has permeated the entire sports ecosystem, fans betting on games is in no way comparable to players or managers, or player-managers, gambling on games they have direct influence over. In my opinion this is an extremely lazy attempt to brush what Pete Rose did under the rug.

[DJL44]

11 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

Have some athletes gotten away with worse over the last 150 years?

None come to mind. Pete Rose is the only Hall of Fame caliber player who ruined his career by violating the only rule that has a lifetime ban as a punishment. Pete Rose is a like a package of all the bad traits of every other sketchy candidate all rolled up into one person. I guess he wasn't an overt racist, so he has that going for him.

[h2oface]

He belongs in the Hall of Fame, in the Hall of Shame room, along with others that deserve it. They are part of the the famous baseball story, Warts count, too. 

[cmoss84]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

None come to mind. Pete Rose is the only Hall of Fame caliber player who ruined his career by violating the only rule that has a lifetime ban as a punishment. Pete Rose is a like a package of all the bad traits of every other sketchy candidate all rolled up into one person. I guess he wasn't an overt racist, so he has that going for him.

 I mean...Ray Lewis killed people. Lawrence Taylor is a sex offender. Do they count?

[h2oface]

3 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

 I mean...Ray Lewis killed people. Lawrence Taylor is a sex offender. Do they count?

Hall of Shame worthy. All sports should include a Hall of Shame in their Hall of Fame for the worthy. 

[DJL44]

8 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

 I mean...Ray Lewis killed people. Lawrence Taylor is a sex offender. Do they count?

Pete Rose is a sex offender, but I don't think he killed anyone.

[bean5302]

I don't know Pete Rose, and he certainly never wronged me in any way. His prime was long over before I was born. He's dead. He can take no pleasure in any respite from hate, yet comment after comment drips with hatred and vitriol, eager to demonstrate the virtue of the commentor. Perhaps we should take his rotting corpse and hang it from a tow truck to haul it across the country from state fair to state fair. Sell tickets to commentors for $2 to take a swing and beat it with a baseball bat so as to demonstrate refined moral superiority while proving their virtue?

When it comes to Pete Rose and his relationship to baseball, his contributions are unquestionable. He's the all time leader in hits, RoY, MVP, and has accumulated 80 career WAR while being one of the most popular players of all time, representing the game and drawing in fans an insane 17 times as an All Star.

His behavior also critically damaged baseball. It was a series of massive sucker punches to fans, and he also risked a potentially catastrophic impact if fans believe play was all showmanship and entertainment rather than a competitive sport. As far as the non-baseball related claims against him, they're paper thin, but no type of claim is more powerful so it's not surprising it's been so intently weaponized.

For whatever reason, Americans have both been taught and embraced the concept of persecution or acceptance. If a person isn't willing to actively persecute somebody they don't know, and demonstrate outrage while demanding endless vengeance for behavior which did not personally injure them in any way, it means the person is actively endorsing the harmful behavior, and therefore must also be persecuted. 

Of course, it's all intensely hypocritical, but it makes an American feel good to judge themselves to have superior value in society while seeking an active minority group to persecute. We're not allowed to persecute based on skin color or sex or gender or body shape or hair color or smoking status anymore. Who can we find? Somebody, certainly, and it's our duty to destroy those people to demonstrate moral superiority. 

It saddens me a little to see people so bent out of shape over somebody they don't know who did nothing to them, hasn't been relevant in 40 years, and is now dead (or somebody who hasn't played in 100 years for that matter). Rose paid and paid again for his actions. I can't comment as to whether or not he regretted his actions, but I suspect being widely hated after having been so beloved and honored was probably a truly never ending horrible experience.

I don't have a vote, and I'm not sure how I would vote. I'm quite positive I won't lose any sleep over it.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

49 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

This is a slippery slope many people like to be very picky/choosey on. You could mention quite a few individuals from a variety of sports, and their HOFs, and come to the same conclusion. Also, have you done research on every player in baseball's HOF? Did anyone else have character concerns or a history of crime? Have some athletes gotten away with worse over the last 150 years? Professional athletes need to be looked at as such when this process occurs every year. I battle the same concept with Michael Jackson. I have to only listen to his music as a musical prodigy. If you are going to judge everyone, then judge EVERYONE. 

As I said earlier, if there are people like that in the hall of fame, then putting more people in who are at least as bad (and probably worse) doesn't make the situation better.  It only makes it worse.  Gosh, someone blew it a few years back. . . . let's do it again!  The whataboutism is what the real problem actually is.  Either the rules matter, or they don't, or they don't when we don't like it. 

[Rod Carews Birthday]

34 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

 I mean...Ray Lewis killed people. Lawrence Taylor is a sex offender. Do they count?

Are they in the Baseball Hall of Fame?  When did that happen?  They really need to institute a policy that you had to play the actual sport to get in.  This is a travesty!

I exaggerate for effect, but the reality is that making additional mistakes after making some isn't going to help make things better. 

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

Let's see.  It took Shoeless Joe Jackson how long after his career (and death) to be reinstated before being considered for the HOF?  Let's have Pete Rose wait that long as well.  I would prefer never, but I'm willing to compromise. 

I like this idea. Rose can go in after everyone who ever knew him is long dead and the historians are the only people left who care. Pete Rose, HOF 2130!

[cmoss84]

1 minute ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

Are they in the Baseball Hall of Fame?  When did that happen?  They really need to institute a policy that you had to play the actual sport to get in.  This is a travesty!

I exaggerate for effect, but the reality is that making additional mistakes after making some isn't going to help make things better. 

^ (If you read my entire post it might help)

[Rod Carews Birthday]

1 minute ago, cmoss84 said:

^ (If you read my entire post it might help)

I did.  You were implying that in fact others may have done worse so therefore it wasn't so bad and then quoted players from another sport.  If I have misinterpreted that, I apologize, but that is how I took it.  I am willing to agree to disagree on Pete Rose, but I really don't want to exalt the guy who was publicly guilty of a number of pretty terrible things.  Admittedly, his rhetoric and behavior post retirement didn't do anything to endear me to him either, so I see no redemption in that.  YMMV.

[USAFChief]

41 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

I don't know Pete Rose, and he certainly never wronged me in any way. His prime was long over before I was born. He's dead. He can take no pleasure in any respite from hate, yet comment after comment drips with hatred and vitriol, eager to demonstrate the virtue of the commentor. Perhaps we should take his rotting corpse and hang it from a tow truck to haul it across the country from state fair to state fair. Sell tickets to commentors for $2 to take a swing and beat it with a baseball bat so as to demonstrate refined moral superiority while proving their virtue?

When it comes to Pete Rose and his relationship to baseball, his contributions are unquestionable. He's the all time leader in hits, RoY, MVP, and has accumulated 80 career WAR while being one of the most popular players of all time, representing the game and drawing in fans an insane 17 times as an All Star.

His behavior also critically damaged baseball. It was a series of massive sucker punches to fans, and he also risked a potentially catastrophic impact if fans believe play was all showmanship and entertainment rather than a competitive sport. As far as the non-baseball related claims against him, they're paper thin, but no type of claim is more powerful so it's not surprising it's been so intently weaponized.

For whatever reason, Americans have both been taught and embraced the concept of persecution or acceptance. If a person isn't willing to actively persecute somebody they don't know, and demonstrate outrage while demanding endless vengeance for behavior which did not personally injure them in any way, it means the person is actively endorsing the harmful behavior, and therefore must also be persecuted. 

Of course, it's all intensely hypocritical, but it makes an American feel good to judge themselves to have superior value in society while seeking an active minority group to persecute. We're not allowed to persecute based on skin color or sex or gender or body shape or hair color or smoking status anymore. Who can we find? Somebody, certainly, and it's our duty to destroy those people to demonstrate moral superiority. 

It saddens me a little to see people so bent out of shape over somebody they don't know who did nothing to them, hasn't been relevant in 40 years, and is now dead (or somebody who hasn't played in 100 years for that matter). Rose paid and paid again for his actions. I can't comment as to whether or not he regretted his actions, but I suspect being widely hated after having been so beloved and honored was probably a truly never ending horrible experience.

I don't have a vote, and I'm not sure how I would vote. I'm quite positive I won't lose any sleep over it.

Wow. 

It's not complicated. He bet on baseball. That's it.

[Bad News TC Bears]

Yes I think betting as a manager and player is very bad... Most likely influencing decisions that had consequences on a game and also players getting used on days when they needed rest.... His defiance towards baseball hurt his chances because it showed a lack of respect for the commissioner. I still think he should be in the HOF... We don't know all the players that have cheated or done things against the game. Probably more than we'd like to know. I've been very critical of players during the steroid era and I think that is a different kind of low... Even though some of those guys would have been in the HOF if not implicated or honest about using. I'm sure there are Hall of Famer's who cheated in some way and didn't get caught.

[jmlease1]

2 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

This is a slippery slope many people like to be very picky/choosey on. You could mention quite a few individuals from a variety of sports, and their HOFs, and come to the same conclusion. Also, have you done research on every player in baseball's HOF? Did anyone else have character concerns or a history of crime? Have some athletes gotten away with worse over the last 150 years? Professional athletes need to be looked at as such when this process occurs every year. I battle the same concept with Michael Jackson. I have to only listen to his music as a musical prodigy. If you are going to judge everyone, then judge EVERYONE. 

Nope. We don't have to consider every other possible scenario as it relates to every other player or circumstance in order to judge Pete Rose. That's the ultimate "whataboutism" that inevitably lets everybody off the hook for their actions. Voter failures in the past aren't an excuse for doing the wrong thing NOW.

It doesn't matter what the NFL or Basketball Halls of Fame do or don't do; different institutions, different rules, different games. Doesn't matter that Michael Jackson was a messed up dude who has been credibly accused of heinous acts. The fact that many gifted people have also been horrible people is irrelevant.

Pete Rose should be judged on the acts and character of Pete Rose. And while he accomplished many remarkable things on the baseball field as a player, he also broke the cardinal rule of baseball and was deservedly banished. He's already represented in Cooperstown as part of the museum showing the history of baseball; induction into the Hall of Fame is an honorific that he is unworthy of because of his own acts in gambling on baseball.

I can understand MLB taking him on the "ineligible" list after he died; he's now permanently ineligible to participate in baseball. I don't think announcing it was in any way wise or good judgment, just cowardice from a flunky of a commissioner. But that's a different issue.

[UpstateNewYorker]

Kind of off topic, but Joe Jackson had 12 hits in the 1919 World Series, committed no errors and threw out a runner at the plate.   

Folks should read  "Eight Men Out" to get a complete look at the 1919 Black Sox scandal.

[Met Stadium Usher]

The  Hall of Fame does have the famous character clause:

"Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played."

Of course, it doesn't specify that integrity, sportsmanship, character has to happen only on the field, and it doesn't specify that those same traits shouldn't be judged off the field. Steroid users and Nazi sympathizers who have had great MLB careers have gotten wrapped up in this morality clause. The always trite logic of "so-and-so got in, a bad guy, and thus THIS guy should get in too," frequently gets cited. 

Personally, as someone fortunate enough to have visited Cooperstown a few times, I have seen plenty of displays referencing Rose, or Shoeless Joe, among the infamous. To me, that's doing them justice. Being selected to the Hall is an honor, and I don't see why we should feel compelled to honor them. 

IMHO.

[DocBauer]

I admit to being a little torn on this topic. I have no skin in the discussion as I respected Rose as a ballplayer, but can't say I was ever a fan. Despite being a Christian and person that does his very best to be moral in everything I do in life...the best I can...I think there is a definite distinction between FORGIVENESS and opening a door to a reward.

Rose deserves to be in the HOF as part of MLB history. And it's my understanding that he is represented as such. Therefore, in some capacity, he is already "imortalized" in the Hall. But regardless of off the field incidents and a general belief and acceptance of him just not being a good person, the fact is that as a PLAYER and MANAGER, he violated the #1 cardinal sin of MLB. Whether he was a gambling addict or someone who just believed the rule didn't apply to him, he repeatedly broke that #1 rule. He is already enshrined in history, but he doesn't deserve to be enshrined in that special way in which he's ELECTED in to the Hall.

I DON'T want to derail the thread! But the steroid issue has been broached already, and has some similar bearing on this discussion as a result. 

I don't like liars or cheaters. To this day, I'm a little unclear as to the actual rules in place when the steroid controversy became uncovered.

On a strictly personal note, I'm fully in favor of HGH and steroids to be used for MEDICAL purposes for ANYONE, including professional athletes, to recover from injuries or medical conditions. I am NOT in favor of such treatments for enhancement for performance! Only for medical recovery.

I can only speculate without proof that will undoubtedly never be uncovered, but in cases of steroid and HGH players such as Bonds and Clemens, will we EVER know when they started? They were so good, and so dominate, their early careers were probably HOF worthy. Did they always use? Or did they only use in their mid 30's to prolong their careers when they might have already been legitimate HOF inductees?

Again, we're probably never going to know. And IMO, it does create a gray area that I don't have an answer to. I wish I did. But until someone can provide any answers, or a better arguement for induction, I guess I have to follow those players down the Rose path. They get their mention in the Hall as part of history, without receiving the actual ELECTION to the hall.

It's really a shame brought on by themselves. Because a couple of these guys might have been elected due to their performances when "clean".

[cmoss84]

What if you knew 25% of your heroes were frauds, rules breakers, criminals, etc.? Would you want to know?

I know this is off topic. Just interested.

PS hard to believe for some, but many people outside of MN do not like Kirby Puckett. 

[Greggory Masterson]

21 minutes ago, cmoss84 said:

What if you knew 25% of your heroes were frauds, rules breakers, criminals, etc.? Would you want to know?

I know this is off topic. Just interested.

PS hard to believe for some, but many people outside of MN do not like Kirby Puckett. 

Quite honestly, I was disappointed by my hero when I was 8, so I just stopped having heroes.

[cmoss84]

31 minutes ago, Greggory Masterson said:

Quite honestly, I was disappointed by my hero when I was 8, so I just stopped having heroes.

Damn.

But heroes are human. I get it though.

[knothole61]

8 hours ago, Rod Carews Birthday said:

Did he try to charge Manfred for the autograph?  Wouldn't really be shocking in his case. 

He was only contrite to sell books and make one last attempt to get in.  He deserves his fate. 

People will say "what about this guy or that guy?".  I don't care.  Rose was repeatedly a scumbag in numerous situations, not just while he was a manager.  Putting more people like that in doesn't make it better.  It only makes it worse. 

Amazing...bravo!

[knothole61]

7 hours ago, bean5302 said:

I don't know Pete Rose, and he certainly never wronged me in any way. His prime was long over before I was born. He's dead. He can take no pleasure in any respite from hate, yet comment after comment drips with hatred and vitriol, eager to demonstrate the virtue of the commentor. Perhaps we should take his rotting corpse and hang it from a tow truck to haul it across the country from state fair to state fair. Sell tickets to commentors for $2 to take a swing and beat it with a baseball bat so as to demonstrate refined moral superiority while proving their virtue?

When it comes to Pete Rose and his relationship to baseball, his contributions are unquestionable. He's the all time leader in hits, RoY, MVP, and has accumulated 80 career WAR while being one of the most popular players of all time, representing the game and drawing in fans an insane 17 times as an All Star.

His behavior also critically damaged baseball. It was a series of massive sucker punches to fans, and he also risked a potentially catastrophic impact if fans believe play was all showmanship and entertainment rather than a competitive sport. As far as the non-baseball related claims against him, they're paper thin, but no type of claim is more powerful so it's not surprising it's been so intently weaponized.

For whatever reason, Americans have both been taught and embraced the concept of persecution or acceptance. If a person isn't willing to actively persecute somebody they don't know, and demonstrate outrage while demanding endless vengeance for behavior which did not personally injure them in any way, it means the person is actively endorsing the harmful behavior, and therefore must also be persecuted. 

Of course, it's all intensely hypocritical, but it makes an American feel good to judge themselves to have superior value in society while seeking an active minority group to persecute. We're not allowed to persecute based on skin color or sex or gender or body shape or hair color or smoking status anymore. Who can we find? Somebody, certainly, and it's our duty to destroy those people to demonstrate moral superiority. 

It saddens me a little to see people so bent out of shape over somebody they don't know who did nothing to them, hasn't been relevant in 40 years, and is now dead (or somebody who hasn't played in 100 years for that matter). Rose paid and paid again for his actions. I can't comment as to whether or not he regretted his actions, but I suspect being widely hated after having been so beloved and honored was probably a truly never ending horrible experience.

I don't have a vote, and I'm not sure how I would vote. I'm quite positive I won't lose any sleep over it.

Bean, some things are just plain wrong and time can not change that fact. I don't know if you are old enough, but I watched this whole drama play out in real time. I saw the cocky Pete lying through his teeth until the weight of evidence forced him at last to change his tune. I saw him fail time and time again to offer any true contrition. And I remember the toll he took on MLB Commissioner Bart Giamatti, a great man who may have been driven to his early grave in part by the stress that Pete's situation undoubtedly caused him. He's "paid and paid again for his actions" to you, but not to me...never. 

[knothole61]

4 hours ago, UpstateNewYorker said:

Kind of off topic, but Joe Jackson had 12 hits in the 1919 World Series, committed no errors and threw out a runner at the plate.   

Folks should read  "Eight Men Out" to get a complete look at the 1919 Black Sox scandal.

I think there's good evidence that he took $5,000 from the gamblers (worth over $90,000 today) to keep quiet about what he knew was happening. Not a good look...

[knothole61]

2 hours ago, Greggory Masterson said:

Quite honestly, I was disappointed by my hero when I was 8, so I just stopped having heroes.

Most true heroes these day fly under the radar, I think. People who "walk on through the wind" and rain. People who do what needs to be done and never ask for thanks and never wonder why.   

[NYCTK]

7 hours ago, bean5302 said:

It saddens me a little to see people so bent out of shape over somebody they don't know who did nothing to them, hasn't been relevant in 40 years, and is now dead

You accuse everyone else of being self righteous and then write this drivel? My eyes hurt from how hard you made me roll them.

[NYCTK]

7 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

^ (If you read my entire post it might help)

Pete Rose already is a Hall of Famer. With the WWE. This is as relevant to the conversation as Lawrence Taylor or Ray Lewis. 

[NYCTK]

3 hours ago, cmoss84 said:

What if you knew 25% of your heroes were frauds, rules breakers, criminals, etc.? Would you want to know?

I know this is off topic. Just interested.

PS hard to believe for some, but many people outside of MN do not like Kirby Puckett. 

Many people from Minnesota don't like Kirby Puckett. I don't like Kirby Puckett. 

I think he was actually a pretty bad Hall of Fame selection, ignoring his shade post career character issues, needing a lot of bonus points for the World Series to justify his inclusion. 

With his off the field issues, I have no positive thoughts about the man. I am just young enough that the world series moments are merely highlights. 

Had those stories broken one year earlier he'd look a lot less like a hall of famer than fellow domestic abuser Andruw Jones who, if he doesn't get in, has his own demons to blame. 

[Guest]

18 hours ago, USAFChief said:

 Nothing will ever erase the mistakes Jackson and Rose made 

 Thus we shouldn't be beyond that now.

Or ever.

Stripes taken off may be earned back if one acknowledges that mistake, pays the punishment and learns from it.