Rocco Baldelli and the Case of the Missing Lever

[bean5302]

22 minutes ago, spanman2 said:

Would it surprise us if Buxton and Correa's names are thrown out there near the trade deadline to dump said $$$ attached to the payroll?  

Both full NTC with limited trade value so it would certainly be a tough sell. Pablo Lopez is far more likely to be moved.

[bean5302]

I think Alcala needs a change of scenery, bad.

[laloesch]

2 hours ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Yeah, I'm incredibly disappointed in Correa and Buxton. Morneau hinted at it on Sunday - sometimes its up to the players to create energy and a positive attitude. Correa looks like he's checked out and Buxton just looks totally lost at the plate. If they were playing at even their career average, the Twins are probably hovering around .500 - which isn't great, but which isn't hopeless either.

Great comment by Morneau.  Boy do i miss having Justin and Joe in the lineup.  At least they could hit the ball.

[Vanimal46]

45 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Both full NTC with limited trade value so it would certainly be a tough sell. Pablo Lopez is far more likely to be moved.

I could see Correa lifting the NTC to join a contending team more than Buxton. I’ll take Buxton at his word that he wants to be a Twin for his whole career. Correa on the other hand was more than willing to leave in free agency until 2 failed physicals forced him back to the Twins. 

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

This offense lacks talent. That shouldn't be super surprising to anyone. When Buxton and Correa faceplant out of the gate and Lewis is on the IL they're going to struggle to score runs more often than not.

This is worse than it should be, but not by much. Isn't this what many of us spent the whole offseason saying? They didn't add any real offensive upgrades. Bader was brought in to be more than just a platoon bat and isn't worthy of being an essentially everyday corner bat. France has been as good as anybody could've hoped. Gasper has been a 29-year-old rookie. The rest of the lineup is what it is.

Wallner has been short on HRs but has been as expected. Miranda, Castro, Larnach, Jeffers, Julien have been inconsistent with some towards the bad end of their inconsistency to start the year and some towards the good. Vazquez has been awful. Keirsey hasn't played. Lee just got here. 

If Rocco thought he was going to have this particular lever to pull him and Falvey were fooling themselves. This is who this team always was from a talent standpoint. This team isn't young. They shouldn't need this "earn their spot" strategy (at least in the way I'm reading it). Jose Miranda is 26 years old and turns 27 during the season. Julien is 26. Wallner is 27. Larnach is 28. Keirsey is almost 28. Jeffers is almost 28. Castro is 28. Lewis is touching 26. Martin is 26. These guys are in their primes. They should be established by now. This is part of the problem with the combination of giving average at best vets so much run over actually young players and injuries to your young players. You're still trying to decide if guys in their primes are worthy of everyday jobs. If you weren't/aren't sold on these guys by now you should've been doing way more to replace them than you did. You should've done way more to reform this roster.

While I'm not ready to declare the season dead after 17 games. What you are saying is spot on in my opinion.

There is always a future bill to pay.  

You and I have been saying this for a couple of years now. 

While I'm very happy that they are letting them get their hacks in against left handers this year. Two years of Wallner, Larnach, Julien and Kirilloff being shielded from left handed pitchers is two years of compromised development for all 4 of those players. It should surprise no one that we are now talking about 26, 27 and 28 year old players still trying to find their way in the big leagues.

Attached to that decision is also two years of providing roster spots for players with one year contracts that won't be back the following year. Players who they have made necessary for the functionality of the two year organizational strategy of shielding/compromising our young developing left handed hitters. Those one year contracts require roster spots that will not be used for a developing pre-arb player. So now, we have compromised at least 6 roster spots in terms of development.

Tack on two catcher spots and Camargo sitting on the bench not utilized while he watches Vazquez hit as poorly as a catcher can hit... and now we have compromised 8 of the available roster spots in terms of development.

and finally add in the superstars Buxton, Correa, Lewis and lets' throw Castro into that mix and we have compromised 12 roster spots in terms of development. Leaving one spot at most to throw a youngster like Brooks Lee to the Wolves. 

If you utilize almost all of your roster spots this way... you will bottle neck your development and pretty soon our young talent is 26, 27, 28 years old and haven't proven a thing. No one should be shocked by the age of youngsters since we've been letting Margot stay employed at their expense. Can Wallner hit left handers? Can Larnach? We are just starting to find out now. Can Keirsay hit as well as Margot did? I don't know and they don't know either.

This type of strategy/philosophy. There is a future bill to pay for it. A big future bill. Are we paying that bill in full right now. Maybe... however, it's just too soon to tell because the season is still young but then again... this offense has been extended down since August of last year. 

No matter if we are paying that bill in full right now. that bill will come due. We can't keep signing one year deals with low level vets to fill the spaces only available through the consistent compromising of our development.

For anyone who is afraid of youth, pre-arb players and I will include Rocco and the front office for this possible fear. I'll repeat this over and over again. Look at how many pre-arb players are on the rosters of the other 29 teams.... compare that to the Twins. Look at how many pre-arb players out performed Margot last year. What you'll see is that other teams are winning baseball games with nearly half the roster comprised of pre-arb players.

Do we have a development problem? Have we just plain failed to produce the number of pre-arb players that other organizations can produce? Have we just plain failed to produce a left handed hitting prospect who can hit left handed pitching? Other organizations are not having that problem? Or has this been just a horrible unnecessary bottle necking of our system for attempted short term gain that may or may not be a gain. 

If the Twins don't have a lever to pull right now. It's because they have built a farm system with 26, 27 and 28 year old levers dying on the vine. 

 

[bean5302]

4 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I could see Correa lifting the NTC to join a contending team more than Buxton. I’ll take Buxton at his word that he wants to be a Twin for his whole career. Correa on the other hand was more than willing to leave in free agency until 2 failed physicals forced him back to the Twins. 

He wasn't forced back to the Twins. He rebuffed both SF and NY's attempts at additional negotiations and both SF and NY were on record as surprised/disappointed they weren't able to find a way to get him.

I agree Correa would be more likely to waive his NTC, and he's got more leverage to work out a deal to make it happen with all those vesting options. Buxton's NTC ends after next year so he might be willing to waive the NTC if the 5 team trade list provision got removed as well.

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

While I'm not ready to declare the season dead after 17 games. What you are saying is spot on in my opinion.

There is always a future bill to pay.  

You and I have been saying this for a couple of years now. 

While I'm very happy that they are letting them get their hacks in against left handers this year. Two years of Wallner, Larnach, Julien and Kirilloff being shielded from left handed pitchers is two years of compromised development for all 4 of those players. It should surprise no one that we are now talking about 26, 27 and 28 year old players still trying to find their way in the big leagues.

Attached to that decision is also two years of providing roster spots for players with one year contracts that won't be back the following year. Players who they have made necessary for the functionality of the two year organizational strategy of shielding/compromising our young developing left handed hitters. Those one year contracts require roster spots that will not be used for a developing pre-arb player. So now, we have compromised at least 6 roster spots in terms of development.

Tack on two catcher spots and Camargo sitting on the bench not utilized while he watches Vazquez hit as poorly as a catcher can hit... and now we have compromised 8 of the available roster spots in terms of development.

and finally add in the superstars Buxton, Correa, Lewis and lets' throw Castro into that mix and we have compromised 12 roster spots in terms of development. Leaving one spot at most to throw a youngster like Brooks Lee to the Wolves. 

If you utilize almost all of your roster spots this way... you will bottle neck your development and pretty soon our young talent is 26, 27, 28 years old and haven't proven a thing. No one should be shocked by the age of youngsters since we've been letting Margot stay employed at their expense. Can Wallner hit left handers? Can Larnach? We are just starting to find out now. Can Keirsay hit as well as Margot did? I don't know and they don't know either.

This type of strategy/philosophy. There is a future bill to pay for it. A big future bill. Are we paying that bill in full right now. Maybe... however, it's just too soon to tell because the season is still young but then again... this offense has been extended down since August of last year. 

No matter if we are paying that bill in full right now. that bill will come due. We can't keep signing one year deals with low level vets to fill the spaces only available through the consistent compromising of our development.

For anyone who is afraid of youth, pre-arb players and I will include Rocco and the front office for this possible fear. I'll repeat this over and over again. Look at how many pre-arb players are on the rosters of the other 29 teams.... compare that to the Twins. Look at how many pre-arb players out performed Margot last year. What you'll see is that other teams are winning baseball games with nearly half the roster comprised of pre-arb players.

Do we have a development problem? Have we just plain failed to produce the number of pre-arb players that other organizations can produce? Have we just plain failed to produce a left handed hitting prospect who can hit left handed pitching? Other organizations are not having that problem? Or has this been just a horrible unnecessary bottle necking of our system for attempted short term gain that may or may not be a gain. 

If the Twins don't have a lever to pull right now. It's because they have built a farm system with 26, 27 and 28 year old levers dying on the vine. 

 

Perfect post. 

[Mike Sixel]

15 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I could see Correa lifting the NTC to join a contending team more than Buxton. I’ll take Buxton at his word that he wants to be a Twin for his whole career. Correa on the other hand was more than willing to leave in free agency until 2 failed physicals forced him back to the Twins. 

Concur on both points. Though I'd certainly deal them both if possible. I mean, I'm trading everyone older than 28 at this point and blowing it up (but not until I fire the FO first). 

[laloesch]

19 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

I could see Correa lifting the NTC to join a contending team more than Buxton. I’ll take Buxton at his word that he wants to be a Twin for his whole career. Correa on the other hand was more than willing to leave in free agency until 2 failed physicals forced him back to the Twins. 

I could see that as well.  Correa has got to be frustrated with not only his own play but his teammates play as well as being frustrated with ownership and the lack of moves by the organization.  I would imagine he was sold a bill of goods that with his signing the Twins would be bringing in other talent to build around him and that clearly hasn't happened.  Sure he's getting paid a TON of money, but that only goes so far when it comes to professional happiness especially as an athlete where the bar to reach is competing for championships like he did with the Astros.  

I also believe Buxton wants to remain a Twin his entire career, but I'm not sure that's good for the organization.  Either way his NTC changes to a 5-team no trade clause in 2027.  If he's still playing like this at the conclusion of the 2026 season, the Twins may very well move him out. I mean he's only played an average of 81 games the last 9 seasons.  

[LastOnePicked]

Yup, poor Rocco. He was only given a roster predicted to contend for the AL Central title, a team with a farm system that people reliably reassured me is top 5 in baseball. But sure, he has no levers to pull.

At what point is Rocco ever, ever part of the problem in your and Gleeman's equation? I mean, even if the poor man is routinely left "lever-less," then why doesn't he advocate for a better offseason? Why does he keep re-signing with an organization that supposedly sets him up for failure?

Sorry. I'm not buying this. Every team outside of the NY/LA elites has gaps to fill. You have to inspire the best play from the talent you have. No one can convince me that Rocco is achieving this.

[Blyleven2011]

3 hours ago, Woof Bronzer said:

The dude started a game as DESIGNATED HITTER.   Joke team.  

A professional joke team some would say , a laughing stock in MLB  ...

Starts with the owners , FO and down the chain to manager and coaches , it's a joke because all of them are unprofessionals  ...

Nothing has improved in years on defense and offense  , it just is getting worse ...

Pitching has improved greatly  , can't those in charge muti task and find a solution to what is wrong with defense and offense  ...

I guess not because  it has been a total system failure , and ownership isn't going to admit it , they would have or should have stated this after the first 10 games ...

[Jocko87]

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

This offense lacks talent. That shouldn't be super surprising to anyone.

I don't necessarily disagree with this premise but its not the driving fault right now.

What we are seeing is not a talent problem.  If the roster was performing to anything near career norms and playing this poorly, we can have that discussion.  Being at roughly 10% full strength for whatever reason overrides any roster construction nibbling.  There isn't a single dollar that could be spent that fixes whatever is wrong right now-it's mental, and maybe not organic.

One of my strongest held leadership tenets is that when we leave the room with a plan-we are all rowing the same direction, trying to make the plan work.  Especially the folks that advocated a different plan.  We can then adjust the plan based on accurate feedback.  If we don't try to execute to the plan, we don't know if the failure was the plan or the execution.

The beauty is, that if everyone is trying to execute the plan, every plan works. 

When you have what I believe we are seeing with the Twins-no plan works.  No roster construction matters. 

The lever Rocco needs is one he needs to create.  That's what leadership is.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

Correa and Buxton.

Your star players need to be stars. It is debatable if either one is a star in the true sense of the word, but relative to this franchise and this roster, they're the Twins' best players. If they simply were at their respective career average performances, the Twins' outlook is a lot different. Everyone goes through slumps. But not only are they struggling on the field, there appears to be zero emotion or zero fight. Hard for the rank and file on this roster to not get caught in the wash when the supposed team leaders look like they checked out in spring training.

 

[twinzcynic]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Do we have a development problem? Have we just plain failed to produce the number of pre-arb players that other organizations can produce? Have we just plain failed to produce a left handed hitting prospect who can hit left handed pitching? Other organizations are not having that problem? Or has this been just a horrible unnecessary bottle necking of our system for attempted short term gain that may or may not be a gain. 

If the Twins don't have a lever to pull right now. It's because they have built a farm system with 26, 27 and 28 year old levers dying on the vine. 

This nails it. I was hoping Mr Bonnes would make some more of these points in this article, but alas, I remembered he and most of the rest of the TD staff are adverse to actually critiquing the current FO/coaching staff.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Agree. I respect that not everyone else agrees, but Correa and Buxton just have this heaviness about them that is not good. 

Hypothetical: if Rocco, Tingler, Buxton, and Correa were off the team tomorrow, somehow, would the team be better, worse, or about the same? 

Here is what my everyday line up would be: 

• DH Julien
• 3B Lee
• SS Lewis (closer to ready than is let on)
• RF Wallner
• 1B France
• C Jeffers
• LF Larnach
• 2B Castro
• CF Bader

Obviously there are some issues, namely the shine is off Lewis and Lee somewhat, and a very very thin bench with Keirsey JR and Miranda, but a younger team like this would bring some energy. A new head coach going out, and doing drills with this new set of guys, would do wonders. Obviously we are praying on guys like Rodriguez, Keaschall and Walker Jenkins to mature and contribute soon, as well.

 

 

 

 

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

He wasn't forced back to the Twins. He rebuffed both SF and NY's attempts at additional negotiations and both SF and NY were on record as surprised/disappointed they weren't able to find a way to get him.

I agree Correa would be more likely to waive his NTC, and he's got more leverage to work out a deal to make it happen with all those vesting options. Buxton's NTC ends after next year so he might be willing to waive the NTC if the 5 team trade list provision got removed as well.

Unless he wanted less flexibility and $$, yeah, he kinda was forced back to the Twins. The additional negotiations with SF and NY came after failed physicals. I'm sure each club was disappointed (at least at the time) that they weren't able to sign him for few years and less money. 

[Dave Borton]

Quote

One solution would be to have another player or two who could also apply some pressure to a lineup that entered yesterday’s game hitting just .208.

Blistering. Just freakin' blistering.

[spanman2]

4 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Both full NTC with limited trade value so it would certainly be a tough sell. Pablo Lopez is far more likely to be moved.

Fair pt...I completely forgot about that being in their contracts.  

[Linus]

1 hour ago, Jocko87 said:

I don't necessarily disagree with this premise but its not the driving fault right now.

What we are seeing is not a talent problem.  If the roster was performing to anything near career norms and playing this poorly, we can have that discussion.  Being at roughly 10% full strength for whatever reason overrides any roster construction nibbling.  There isn't a single dollar that could be spent that fixes whatever is wrong right now-it's mental, and maybe not organic.

One of my strongest held leadership tenets is that when we leave the room with a plan-we are all rowing the same direction, trying to make the plan work.  Especially the folks that advocated a different plan.  We can then adjust the plan based on accurate feedback.  If we don't try to execute to the plan, we don't know if the failure was the plan or the execution.

The beauty is, that if everyone is trying to execute the plan, every plan works. 

When you have what I believe we are seeing with the Twins-no plan works.  No roster construction matters. 

The lever Rocco needs is one he needs to create.  That's what leadership is.

Respectfully I believe it is a talent problem. I’m not buying that Rocco not being here magically fixes these guys and I don’t want Rocco or the FO around anymore. 

[Road trip]

4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

 

Do we have a development problem? Have we just plain failed to produce the number of pre-arb players that other organizations can produce? Have we just plain failed to produce a left handed hitting prospect who can hit left handed pitching? Other organizations are not having that problem? Or has this been just a horrible unnecessary bottle necking of our system for attempted short term gain that may or may not be a gain. 

If the Twins don't have a lever to pull right now. It's because they have built a farm system with 26, 27 and 28 year old levers dying on the vine. 

 

Loved your post, and want to highlight this section.

Yes, the Twins have a development problem.  They are producing some good pitchers, and I will give credit to the current regime for that. 

They are producing some hitters (maybe...I hope).  I mean, Wallner and Larnach and Jeffers are becoming semi-established if you only look at their bats.  Perhaps not stars, but adequate.  They need more.

But man, fundamentally sound play is apparently not being effectively taught in the minors.  The team doesn't run bases well, they don't field well, they make constant mental errors, and even the young players with speed and minimal power apparently never learned to bunt or hit against the shift.  We can complain (and I do) about Rocco not getting good fundamental play out of this current 25 man roster, but somehow these skills were never taught in the many years spent in the farm system.  You shouldn't have to learn these skills at the major league level... it should be innate knowledge by the time players are at AAA.  The coaching issues aren't just a Rocco problem or a MLB problem...it must start much lower in the farm system.

[Mike Sixel]

3 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Agree. I respect that not everyone else agrees, but Correa and Buxton just have this heaviness about them that is not good. 

Hypothetical: if Rocco, Tingler, Buxton, and Correa were off the team tomorrow, somehow, would the team be better, worse, or about the same? 

Here is what my everyday line up would be: 

• DH Julien
• 3B Lee
• SS Lewis (closer to ready than is let on)
• RF Wallner
• 1B France
• C Jeffers
• LF Larnach
• 2B Castro
• CF Bader

Obviously there are some issues, namely the shine is off Lewis and Lee somewhat, and a very very thin bench with Keirsey JR and Miranda, but a younger team like this would bring some energy. A new head coach going out, and doing drills with this new set of guys, would do wonders. Obviously we are praying on guys like Rodriguez, Keaschall and Walker Jenkins to mature and contribute soon, as well.

 

 

 

 

Lee has a few hundred ABs....I think if he is given a chance, he'll be above average on defense and average on offense. If healthy. But this front office is busy blocking guys like him. 

[jkcarew]

This could have been written about almost every manager in the league.

With the absurd number of pitchers held on active rosters now, there are precious few options when multiple veterans perform poorly. By default you‘re left with young optionable guys that were deemed unready when the season began.

Do other teams have more/better options in the minors? Some do…many don’t. Is the difference between the bottom of the Twins active roster and that of other teams humongous? In most instances it’s marginal, that’s why they aren’t regulars.

The one and only fix is to roster better veteran players before the season begins.

Meanwhile, Rocco can share at least a little of the blame for the regression in performance of multiple players.

[bean5302]

8 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Unless he wanted less flexibility and $$, yeah, he kinda was forced back to the Twins. The additional negotiations with SF and NY came after failed physicals. I'm sure each club was disappointed (at least at the time) that they weren't able to sign him for few years and less money. 

Correa didn't even take SF's calls after they balked at the physical despite SF wanting to work something out.

The Mets initially countered with 6yrs $157MM after the physical, but with options to reach the original $315MM based solely on physicals which is more than he could ultimately earn with the Twins. Correa refused to negotiate.

It's almost nonsensical to believe Correa couldn't have gotten something similar to the reduced Twins' offer from SF or NY had Correa been willing to negotiate after the physicals.

[Vanimal46]

26 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Correa didn't even take SF's calls after they balked at the physical despite SF wanting to work something out.

The Mets initially countered with 6yrs $157MM after the physical, but with options to reach the original $315MM based solely on physicals which is more than he could ultimately earn with the Twins. Correa refused to negotiate.

It's almost nonsensical to believe Correa couldn't have gotten something similar to the reduced Twins' offer from SF or NY had Correa been willing to negotiate after the physicals.

From a human standpoint, why would he continue negotiating with those teams after they balked on their original offers? He got all the way to the 1 yard line on 10+ year deals, to the point where he was going to do a press conference the following day in SF… then they come back and say wait a minute, we want to cut this contract by more than 50%? I’d say F off to them too. 

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

Correa didn't even take SF's calls after they balked at the physical despite SF wanting to work something out.

The Mets initially countered with 6yrs $157MM after the physical, but with options to reach the original $315MM based solely on physicals which is more than he could ultimately earn with the Twins. Correa refused to negotiate.

It's almost nonsensical to believe Correa couldn't have gotten something similar to the reduced Twins' offer from SF or NY had Correa been willing to negotiate after the physicals.

Correa was $35M mad at SF, or was that initial Mets offer he signed hours after SF balked the new top offer?

Yeah, so nearly $50M less than what the Twins were guaranteeing him over 6 years. The Mets deal required him to pass a physical each season after year 6 or the contract was voided. Zero chance he was getting anywhere close to $315M there. It was an inferior offer, hence he pivoted to MN. 

SF had a better deal on the table and Boras decided to just take a haircut? We know the Mets didn't match MN. 

[bean5302]

12 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

From a human standpoint, why would he continue negotiating with those teams after they balked on their original offers? He got all the way to the 1 yard line on 10+ year deals, to the point where he was going to do a press conference the following day in SF… then they come back and say wait a minute, we want to cut this contract by more than 50%? I’d say F off to them too. 

Exactly. There are a bunch of reasons to shut down SF/NY in those scenarios. My point is Correa could have chosen to move ahead with negotiations if he wanted to, and he could have gotten a contract at as good or better than what he wound up getting with the Twins. 

For example, the Twins initially offered Correa a fully guaranteed 10 year $285MM contract. The final negotiated deal was 6yrs $200MM guaranteed, 4yrs $80MM vesting (10yrs $280MM with vesting). The Twins' renegotiated offer didn't change much from the initial offer if vesting occurs.

Getting NY or SF to $200MM+ guaranteed (matching or beating the Twins) would not have been hard, but it would have set a bad precedent for players in general, and it would have required Correa to accept what he felt was pretty insulting conduct.

[TheLeviathan]

Fire the manager, don't fire the manager - it's irrelevant.  Managers mostly make Ty France level wages, that shows you the impact they make to the game.  Shake it up, do whatever makes you feel better from the couch - I'm going to focus on talent:

The idea that the Twins have blocked Larnach and Julien and Miranda and whomever else just doesn't pass the smell test.  Wallner?  100% yes....bad roster management.  Larnach was up getting plenty of run and managing a high of .231 and 8 hrs.  He just didn't deliver enough to stay in the lineup.  Eddie Julian can't field and last year his at-bats were nothing short of painful.  Miranda got a long run, hit like a beast, and then completely cratered.

The problem isn't opportunities....the problem is development.  We are not developing our hitters to handle the big league level with the bat or the glove.  Feel however you want about Rocco, but the fact he has to keep running out a lineup of stone-handed, plodding oafs in the field is not his fault.  The fact that these hitters - on their 81st hitting coach - can't hit isn't on Rocco.

This is pure organizational failure to develop every day players.  We aren't drafting athletes.  We're not training those we draft to master a position and field it well.  We aren't training them for the adjustments and challenges of the big leagues.  We're going on 5-7 years now without a true impact player being developed.

You want to point fingers - start there.

[KirbyDome89]

4 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Exactly. There are a bunch of reasons to shut down SF/NY in those scenarios. My point is Correa could have chosen to move ahead with negotiations if he wanted to, and he could have gotten a contract at as good or better than what he wound up getting with the Twins. 

For example, the Twins initially offered Correa a fully guaranteed 10 year $285MM contract. The final negotiated deal was 6yrs $200MM guaranteed, 4yrs $80MM vesting (10yrs $280MM with vesting). The Twins' renegotiated offer didn't change much from the initial offer if vesting occurs.

Getting NY or SF to $200MM+ guaranteed (matching or beating the Twins) would not have been hard, but it would have set a bad precedent for players in general, and it would have required Correa to accept what he felt was pretty insulting conduct.

It was a massive departure from the original offer. All those vesting years are reliant on PAs surpassed and/or awards won in his mid 30s onward. Good luck. 

If either of those teams were (allegedly) intent on easily beating MN's offer, how is it also not a bad precedent for a player to spurn them? Negotiations get contentious all the time, look at arbitration, but players almost always end up signing where they'll get paid. Carlos Correa, Dior comments and all, and his famously ruthless agent were totally fine with (allegedly) leaving multiple offers better than MN's on the table? Also, he wasn't upset with the Twins and opted to sign their 2nd offer which objectively worse than the original? Occam's Razor here...

[KirbyDome89]

46 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Fire the manager, don't fire the manager - it's irrelevant.  Managers mostly make Ty France level wages, that shows you the impact they make to the game.  Shake it up, do whatever makes you feel better from the couch - I'm going to focus on talent:

The idea that the Twins have blocked Larnach and Julien and Miranda and whomever else just doesn't pass the smell test.  Wallner?  100% yes....bad roster management.  Larnach was up getting plenty of run and managing a high of .231 and 8 hrs.  He just didn't deliver enough to stay in the lineup.  Eddie Julian can't field and last year his at-bats were nothing short of painful.  Miranda got a long run, hit like a beast, and then completely cratered.

The problem isn't opportunities....the problem is development.  We are not developing our hitters to handle the big league level with the bat or the glove.  Feel however you want about Rocco, but the fact he has to keep running out a lineup of stone-handed, plodding oafs in the field is not his fault.  The fact that these hitters - on their 81st hitting coach - can't hit isn't on Rocco.

This is pure organizational failure to develop every day players.  We aren't drafting athletes.  We're not training those we draft to master a position and field it well.  We aren't training them for the adjustments and challenges of the big leagues.  We're going on 5-7 years now without a true impact player being developed.

You want to point fingers - start there.

Talent acquisition needs to be part of the discussion. It's tough to mold what isn't there. 

Your points all still stand though. 

[TheLeviathan]

12 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Talent acquisition needs to be part of the discussion. It's tough to mold what isn't there. 

Your points all still stand though. 

Agreed, the FO is where I point my finger - are you drafting the right players?  Why aren't you developing them?