What Harrison Bader Means to Matt Wallner: Anti-Platooners, Rejoice!

[Linus]

13 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

Baldelli used the same term for both France and Bader--"he will play a lot". For France this is interpreted that he will be the starting first baseman, while for Bader it is interpreted here to mean one of the Twins' two left handed bats will play against lefties. Maybe so, maybe not. 

Rocco has shown he is much less inclined to strictly platoon right handed hitters, meaning the so-called short side of platoons get plenty of PAs against right handers. At $6.5M and without significant platoon splits, I wouldn't be surprised to see Bader get quite a few starts against right handed pitching. 

Finding a third outfielder to go with Buxton and Bader against lefties is the tougher fit. I don't think Austin Martin makes the Twins out of Spring Training this year, but I do think Willi Castro will get lots of starts against left handed pitching. The primary reason Castro didn't play right last year was that Kepler, Larnach and Wallner were all preferred to Willi as right fielders and with Kepler out of the way, I can see Baldelli using Castro in right against left handed pitching, or else Bader in right and Willi in left. I really don't mind that much if both Larnach and Wallner are platooned as long as they get more swings when a lefty reliever enters the game. 

This.  I don’t mind platooning for the start of the game or at the end of the game when appropriate.  It’s the 5th inning move that I dislike.

[DJL44]

41 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Oh, you'd definitely put Bader in LF over Larnach if they're your 2 options. But is Bader in LF and France at 1B with Miranda on the bench better than Larnach in left and Miranda DH? Or is Bader in LF, Miranda at 1B, and Larnach at DH the best setup? 

It's a whole lineup question to me. If Bader is your everyday LFer and France is your everyday 1B then either Larnach or Miranda are sitting. That's my fear with the comments Rocco has made early in camp. 

I don't understand what they see in Ty France. I don't see him as a better 1B than Miranda or a better DH than Miranda or Larnach. I am hopeful that Zoll takes that toy away from Rocco at the end of spring training because it seems like he will play with it way too much.

[chpettit19]

Just now, DJL44 said:

I don't understand what they see in Ty France. I don't see him as a better 1B than Miranda or a better DH than Miranda or Larnach. I am hopeful that Zoll takes that toy away from Rocco at the end of spring training because it seems like he will play with it way too much.

They're almost the exact same player. Both aggressive swingers who have questionable power for 1B, bad gloves, and no speed. I'll be incredibly surprised if France doesn't make this team, but hope he's sent packing by the end of April if he isn't performing. At least Bader brings speed and defense and isn't an older clone of a player the Twins already have. Even if I'm not a fan of him being an everyday player.

[bean5302]

France has quite a bit more raw power than Miranda, and it's not like there's no reason to believe France could rebound when you dig into the batted ball stuff compared to his history. He traded some line drives for grounders last year and his bat speed was down a tick which correlates to the reduced pull rate.

That said, I don't bet on the rebound for a guy who is now in his 30s and clearly should be viewed as a DH, and I don't want him taking experience at 1B away from Miranda.

[RpR]

2 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

I guess the thing that makes me nervous is Rocco talking a lot this spring about how these recent veteran signings are going to "play a lot". I'd rather they play if they deserve it? Bader getting more PT in LF rather than just being a backup CF is fine, especially if he's getting starts against LHP over Larnach. But if he's getting a bunch of starts in LF against RHP over Larnach, he'd better be hitting the @&$*! out of the ball, and I'm afraid we'll get a bunch of Bee Ess about how much more valuable his defense is out there than it actually is.

Last season Larnach had a higher OPS+ than Bader has ever had in his entire career (admittedly, only by a pt). Bader's OPS+ last season was lower than anything Larnach has ever had in any of his seasons in MLB (again, only by 2 pts, but that was also Larnach's rookie season). Bader will produce better defense, but Larnach will produce better offense. If Bader is getting more PT than Larnach, it had better be because of an injury, or the Twins will not be putting out their best lineups.

I have no patience for the team burying hitting talent behind these veterans this season. None. And frankly, this will be how Baldelli loses the locker room: sitting someone like Larnach if he's hitting like last season for Bader (if he's also hitting like last season) too often is going to cost the team runs and wins and will cause unrest and deserved dissatisfaction. For now, things are probably fine. But there's real danger here.

Yep, that magical hidden talent that the Twins cannot seem to find.😄

[Mike Sixel]

I'm not sure anyone is opposed to some platoons.... But at some point, you have to let players play thru difficulties. And if you are going to platoon, you need to have actually good partners. 

As for this specific case, I'm with everyone else. I'll believe it when I see it. They showed how little patience they have last year when they sent Wallner down after his bad start. 

[Linus]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Left field in Boston is pretty easy, but I agree with the general idea here. Will be interesting to see what Kepler's glove is like in LF in Philly. 

Funny how Max is willing to switch positions when he needs a job.

[jmlease1]

36 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Still BURNS me the Twins gave more opportunities to Kyle Garlick than they did Brent Rooker.

Well, Rooker got more PA's than Garlick did with the Twins, even if Garlick got more games. but that was because Garlick was there for a limited role: smash LHP, which he did rather effectively the first 2 seasons he was here, when healthy. Unfortunately, he couldn't stay healthy and now his career is probably up unless he wants to keep chasing it in AAA for a while.

Rooker was bad when he was with the Twins; except for his initial cup of coffee he hit poorly, was rotten defensively, and was out of options. Yes, Twins missed on him, but so did most of baseball: he flunked out for SD & KC (who desperately needed a RH slugger) too and was available for nothing (Oakland took him on waivers). 

but I hope everyone who is mad about Rooker is backing Eddie Julien to get plenty of playing time this season to figure things out the same way we would have had to with Rooker. Julien's younger, had far more success than Rooker in MLB at the time we moved on from him, and even in his down season of 2024 he added more value (marginally, but it was there). Because you can't complain about the Twins not being more patient with Rooker and also be telling everyone to quit on Julien at the same time.

[Linus]

I won’t speak for others but I’m guessing many of us would have far less angst about bringing in France, Bader etc. if it was truly best man wins the playing time.  The Twins seem to rely on what their analytics tell them over actual performance (at least sometimes) and it leads to head scratching decisions.

[jmlease1]

10 minutes ago, Linus said:

I won’t speak for others but I’m guessing many of us would have far less angst about bringing in France, Bader etc. if it was truly best man wins the playing time.  The Twins seem to rely on what their analytics tell them over actual performance (at least sometimes) and it leads to head scratching decisions.

I don't think it's the analytics that are the problem. It's the preference for poorly performing veterans in hopes of a return to form vs younger players/prospects that has a lot of us having tsuris. I kind of doubt the Twins have some proprietary analytical formula that was telling them that Gallo was going to suddenly figure it out again or Margot was just terribly unlucky. they just seem more interested in giving vets a much longer rope.

And I understand it to a point: when you cut the vet, they're almost always gone from the organization. When you send the prospect down to the minors you can call them back up later. but the risk analysis in letting the vet go seems to be skewed, at least to many of us. yes, losing control of an asset for nothing isn't great, but the asset has to be worth holding on to for it to matter. It really feels like the Twins are still so scarred from 2022 (when they were leading for most of the season, and still had a chance in September to take the division) when they simply ran out of functional players and it killed off the season that they've become very risk adverse to reducing their depth...even when it means keeping underperforming players.

But that's playing not to lose, not playing to win. And the Twins have better depth in the farm system now than they did in 2022, IMHO, even with player graduating from prospect status. I'd rather they take the risk with guys like Miranda and Julien and Martin than keep throwing ABs at someone like France if they're not performing. I don't want Bader taking too many ABs away from Larnach or Miranda or Wallner, even if he is still a fine defender (and Bader will be taking ABs from Miranda if France get handed 1B and Larnach gets pushed to DH by Bader on the regular).

Play to win.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

Still BURNS me the Twins gave more opportunities to Kyle Garlick than they did Brent Rooker.

Yeah, it sucks. Rooker was a casualty of MLB's reaction to the Bomba Squad. Rooker was likely drafted with that style of baseball in mind, then in 2020 with the deadened ball and the lackluster offensive results for the Twins, they shifted to signing and drafting up the middle contact hitters.

This team is missing run producers at the moment though.

[brycenation]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm in the "I'll believe it when I see it" crowd. The Twins have 2 lefties who, assuming health, we all know will make the roster. That's Larnach and Wallner. Julien is often named as a 3rd lefty, but I think that's far from a sure thing (although I saw some video of him swinging yesterday and he does look to have flattened that swing out a little). But there's no other lefty even really mentioned as possible for the opening day roster. You can platoon 3 lefties with no problem. Can really platoon 2 lefties. 

I don't see how those statements from Rocco are a good thing for Wallner. Castro in right. Martin in the OF. Just because Rocco mentioned LF being bigger at Target Field doesn't mean he's going to put the lefties out there and sit righties when they face a lefty starter. They're going to play everyone. They always do. But those comments don't make me think "oh, he said left so obviously Wallner and Larnach are playing right against lefties." 

What those statements make me think is that Larnach is going to DH and Bader will get real playing time in left against righties. Castro at 2B and Miranda and France fighting it out at 1B. Bader was on Hot Stove on MLB Network last week and when they asked him about signing with the Twins he mentioned that a big part of the decision was playing time. "The biggest thing is I want to play." He also talks about how in order to keep his career going and get paid he needs the opportunity to play. I think these statements are about far more than platooning in LF. I think Bader is the starting LFer more often than not.

Its tough to compare Julien's swing this year to last. They were few and far between in 2024 with many AB's having the bat resting on his shoulders taking strike after strike. SWING THE BAT! 

[RpR]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

Still BURNS me the Twins gave more opportunities to Kyle Garlick than they did Brent Rooker.

Rooker was and is a horrible fielder, Rooker & Garlick , same year.

Page 1 of 2  

[Riverbrian]

51 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

I don't think it's the analytics that are the problem. It's the preference for poorly performing veterans in hopes of a return to form vs younger players/prospects that has a lot of us having tsuris. I kind of doubt the Twins have some proprietary analytical formula that was telling them that Gallo was going to suddenly figure it out again or Margot was just terribly unlucky. they just seem more interested in giving vets a much longer rope.

And I understand it to a point: when you cut the vet, they're almost always gone from the organization. When you send the prospect down to the minors you can call them back up later. but the risk analysis in letting the vet go seems to be skewed, at least to many of us. yes, losing control of an asset for nothing isn't great, but the asset has to be worth holding on to for it to matter. It really feels like the Twins are still so scarred from 2022 (when they were leading for most of the season, and still had a chance in September to take the division) when they simply ran out of functional players and it killed off the season that they've become very risk adverse to reducing their depth...even when it means keeping underperforming players.

But that's playing not to lose, not playing to win. And the Twins have better depth in the farm system now than they did in 2022, IMHO, even with player graduating from prospect status. I'd rather they take the risk with guys like Miranda and Julien and Martin than keep throwing ABs at someone like France if they're not performing. I don't want Bader taking too many ABs away from Larnach or Miranda or Wallner, even if he is still a fine defender (and Bader will be taking ABs from Miranda if France get handed 1B and Larnach gets pushed to DH by Bader on the regular).

Play to win.

To add to the fine point that you are making about veteran rope.  

We rode Margot for the entire year last year.

The result of his entire year with the Twins... his 2024 performance and his entire career has taken his off-season value to the level of? Still unsigned. 

We hung on to a guy that nobody wants 1 month later. Yet we can't seem to develop major league talent and those developing players still have value to other clubs. 

What are we doing? 

 

[Parfigliano]

2 hours ago, Possumlad said:

Amen. Amazing how cumulative at-bats Rocco gives every year to true-blue scrubs. It's a problem of planning, wisdom, and perspective. He makes a lot of small platoon & playing time decisions that may be justifiable at the margin. But the net effect is that once we're 3-4 weeks in to the season, the Twins ALMOST NEVER run their best line-up out on any given night.

You could solve a lot by making an explicit goal (not suggesting you message this externally) of playing your top line-up ~65-75% of all games. Tinker with the other 25-35%. Match-ups matters, but so do consistency, trust, predictability, and playing your best players. On any given night, there should be at least a 65% chance the Twins are starting their best 9 healthy players... In reality, it's probably 20-30%.

You could solve a lot by dumping Rocco when he does what we all know he will do which is play poor lineups to satisfy his LH-RH fetish.

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, Linus said:

Funny how Max is willing to switch positions when he needs a job.

Yup.  Weird.  More then a couple times TC should have told him if you want to play it's CF.

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, jmlease1 said:

Well, Rooker got more PA's than Garlick did with the Twins, even if Garlick got more games. but that was because Garlick was there for a limited role: smash LHP, which he did rather effectively the first 2 seasons he was here, when healthy. Unfortunately, he couldn't stay healthy and now his career is probably up unless he wants to keep chasing it in AAA for a while.

Rooker was bad when he was with the Twins; except for his initial cup of coffee he hit poorly, was rotten defensively, and was out of options. Yes, Twins missed on him, but so did most of baseball: he flunked out for SD & KC (who desperately needed a RH slugger) too and was available for nothing (Oakland took him on waivers). 

but I hope everyone who is mad about Rooker is backing Eddie Julien to get plenty of playing time this season to figure things out the same way we would have had to with Rooker. Julien's younger, had far more success than Rooker in MLB at the time we moved on from him, and even in his down season of 2024 he added more value (marginally, but it was there). Because you can't complain about the Twins not being more patient with Rooker and also be telling everyone to quit on Julien at the same time.

I'm all in on Julien.  Play him.

[Greggory Masterson]

3 minutes ago, Parfigliano said:

Yup.  Weird.  More then a couple times TC should have told him if you want to play it's CF.

We sure we want to blame the Bear for this?

[Parfigliano]

2 minutes ago, Greggory Masterson said:

We sure we want to blame the Bear for this?

Figured it was safe.  Holding the manager responsible for lineups riles some people.

[Danchat]

1 hour ago, jmlease1 said:

but I hope everyone who is mad about Rooker is backing Eddie Julien to get plenty of playing time this season to figure things out the same way we would have had to with Rooker. Julien's younger, had far more success than Rooker in MLB at the time we moved on from him, and even in his down season of 2024 he added more value (marginally, but it was there). Because you can't complain about the Twins not being more patient with Rooker and also be telling everyone to quit on Julien at the same time.

While I don't find moving on from Rooker to be a big blunder on our front office compared to others, I'm down for giving Julien more chances to see if he can rebound rather than France can get back to being a replacement level player to maybe a little more. The situations are different too as Rooker couldn't shift to 1B/DH with Sano/Cruz filling those and he was a butcher in the outfield and actively hurt the team when he was out there. Meanwhile the current competition at 2B and 1B is very lackluster and there is absolutely going to be PAs for Julien to prove himself if they let him.

[HerbieFan]

13 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Christian Vazquez, your new right fielder when a lefty gets up in the opposing bullpen, LOL

See....now THAT's funny!!

[KirbyDome89]

Definitely feel worse after hearing it confirmed that Bader is going to "get a lot of work," in LF. Hopefully we can drop the "4th OF," charade at this point. 

[Riverbrian]

58 minutes ago, Danchat said:

While I don't find moving on from Rooker to be a big blunder on our front office compared to others, I'm down for giving Julien more chances to see if he can rebound rather than France can get back to being a replacement level player to maybe a little more. The situations are different too as Rooker couldn't shift to 1B/DH with Sano/Cruz filling those and he was a butcher in the outfield and actively hurt the team when he was out there. Meanwhile the current competition at 2B and 1B is very lackluster and there is absolutely going to be PAs for Julien to prove himself if they let him.

I think it would be a mistake to declare Julien done. 

Not to turn this into a Rooker discussion but... Rooker got 213 PA's in 2021. Those 213 PA's were pretty much his first 213 PA's in the majors. He produced a .688 OPS to start his career which is a number that a string of vets have not reached in subsequent years. The Majority of his time in 2021 was spent in AAA producing a .937 OPS over 267 PA's and it should be pointed out that Cruz was traded at the 2021 deadline because the team was out of contention so we could take some time to provide opportunity to younger players without a pennant chase hanging over their heads. 

In 2022... Arraez, Buxton and Sanchez spent the majority of time at DH. Sano was toast. Our primary OF was Celestino, Kepler and Gordon. 2022 is another season out of contention that could be used to look at younger players. 

Rooker also not getting opportunity with San Diego and Kansas City despite producing a 1.044 OPS in AAA. He signs with Oakland for 2023 and only gets opportunity because the A's opened up the season with some injuries.

They notice that he can all of sudden coming out of nowhere hit when his name is put in the lineup card. 

The Twins flat out missed. So did the Padres and Royals... but mostly the Twins because they were working with him the longest and they couldn't see what he could become. 

Rooker is a lesson in what we are still talking about today. Develop or Die! Brent Rooker was paid the minimum by the A's for .817 OPS and .927 OPS. 

 

[NYCTK]

39 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Definitely feel worse after hearing it confirmed that Bader is going to "get a lot of work," in LF. Hopefully we can drop the "4th OF," charade at this point. 

Just because you guys don't understand how much a major league 4th OF works, doesn't mean Bader isn't a 4th OF. 

The Yankees 4th OF, with probably the best OF in all of baseball last year, still played 69 games in the OF. 

[T.O.]

17 hours ago, HerbieFan said:

I'll believe it when I see it.....we all know the ridiculous lengths Rocco will go to play matchups and platoon.

When baldelli talks what I hear is "blah, blah, blah..."

[KirbyDome89]

36 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Just because you guys don't understand how much a major league 4th OF works, doesn't mean Bader isn't a 4th OF. 

The Yankees 4th OF, with probably the best OF in all of baseball last year, still played 69 games in the OF. 

Last season Margot received nearly 2x the number of PAs as your Yankee comp, and that was without playing CF. Tell me again this organization is committed to keeping Bader in a limited role....

[NYCTK]

3 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Last season Margot received nearly 2x the number of PAs as your Yankee comp, and that was without playing CF. Tell me again this organization is committed to keeping Bader in a limited role....

That'll happen when your starting CF perpetually misses half the season and the second best outfielder forgot how to approach a major league at bat and struck out in half his PAs to start the year. 

Harrison Bader will likely play 100+ games, and have 350-400 PAs. None of that changes the fact that he's almost certainly starting the season as the 4th OF. 

[KirbyDome89]

4 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

That'll happen when your starting CF perpetually misses half the season and the second best outfielder forgot how to approach a major league at bat and struck out in half his PAs to start the year. 

Harrison Bader will likely play 100+ games, and have 350-400 PAs. None of that changes the fact that he's almost certainly starting the season as the 4th OF. 

Nope, try again. Nobody from the corners slid into CF. Margot's run was entirely independent of Buxton's availability in CF. 

I'll say it again, that would tie Bader for the 5th most PAs on the team last season. The Twins don't do "4th OF," types. They signed Bader with the intention of giving him a starter workload. Baldelli has now come out and confirmed it. You can continue to bury your head in the sand, but Harrison Bader, for all intents and purposes, is a starting OF for the Minnesota Twins. Whether he hangs onto that role is yet to be seen. 

[USAFChief]

12 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

That'll happen when your starting CF perpetually misses half the season and the second best outfielder forgot how to approach a major league at bat and struck out in half his PAs to start the year. 

Harrison Bader will likely play 100+ games, and have 350-400 PAs. None of that changes the fact that he's almost certainly starting the season as the 4th OF. 

I concur that Bader will be fine as a 4th OFer this year, but he damn well better not get 100+ games and 400 ABs.

 

That's Buxton numbers. 

[NYCTK]

1 minute ago, USAFChief said:

I concur that Bader will be fine as a 4th OFer this year, but he damn well better not get 100+ games and 400 ABs.

 

That's Buxton numbers. 

It's not Bader's fault that Buxton is going to go down for half the season.

Unless it is, but that would make for a really good 30 for 30 documentary.