Twins 2, Orioles 7: Stick a Fork in Them

[Jimcotta]

First time poster here. I live in an area nearly void of Twins fans. Everyone is a Yankees fan and that's all they pay attention to. They couldn't care less about talking Twins baseball. Even my wife just nods her head politely, when I start rambling about the Twins. So I needed to write this for my own mental health. To vent to people who live and die with the team like I do.

I can't even begin to grasp the magnitude of this collapse. How could the entire team tank like this for over a month? How could they be so bad in even the most basic of baseball skills? Has there ever been a worse base running team? A team so bad at situational hitting? What went wrong in the clubhouse that caused and prolonged this endless slump? Something did and I hope the front office makes it their mission to find out what it was and address it. I gave them a pass on the 2022 collapse. The roster was decimated by the end of the year but this year felt very different. Aside from the lack of execution on the field, something seems off with this squad that looked so good just a couple months ago.

Unlike most posters here, I wouldn't mind if Rocco stayed but I wouldn't mind if he is fired either. What will upset me is if next season we have the same hitting coaches and 3rd base coach. There has to be a reason other teams are successful in bases loaded and no out situations and we are so terrible. That was on full display in the 12 inning loss to the Marlins. It was the same last year. Its time for some new voices on the offensive side. I won't even go into all the misguided sends from Watkins. That has been addressed plenty already. Right now I just want to see the team do something rash and impulsive. For once abandon their even keeled philosophy and do something to show fans that what has happened is unacceptable.

You know what bugs me? Is that the national media has largely ignored the Twins collapse. If this were the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers, the collapse would be headline news every day. They have focused on the Tigers run, understandably so as it has been a great story. However, their hot streak is pretty meaningless had the Twins even played .500 ball over the last month (add the Royals into that as well). The only thing the national media says is "Poor Twins, too many injuries again this year.". That's baloney. Injuries were a factor in the collapse but certainly was not the main cause. Why aren't they pointing out the teams horrid performance in all aspects of the game? Why aren't they calling out the front office for going O-fer in trying to bolster the bullpen? Not to mention, as I said I am convinced something more was going on with this team but we will never really know what was happening in that clubhouse.

I feel better (not really).

 

 

[DJL44]

If they really feel they need to keep Rocco because he is under contract and they don't want to pay two managers then that's one more piece of evidence that the bottom line is more important than winning.

[HarmonK03]

Did any reporter ask Rocco why he left Funderburk in the game when the bases were loaded, was he not trying to win.  It was bad enough putting him in, but why leave him in.

[Mark G]

41 minutes ago, Jimcotta said:

First time poster here. I live in an area nearly void of Twins fans. Everyone is a Yankees fan and that's all they pay attention to. They couldn't care less about talking Twins baseball. Even my wife just nods her head politely, when I start rambling about the Twins. So I needed to write this for my own mental health. To vent to people who live and die with the team like I do.

I can't even begin to grasp the magnitude of this collapse. How could the entire team tank like this for over a month? How could they be so bad in even the most basic of baseball skills? Has there ever been a worse base running team? A team so bad at situational hitting? What went wrong in the clubhouse that caused and prolonged this endless slump? Something did and I hope the front office makes it their mission to find out what it was and address it. I gave them a pass on the 2022 collapse. The roster was decimated by the end of the year but this year felt very different. Aside from the lack of execution on the field, something seems off with this squad that looked so good just a couple months ago.

Unlike most posters here, I wouldn't mind if Rocco stayed but I wouldn't mind if he is fired either. What will upset me is if next season we have the same hitting coaches and 3rd base coach. There has to be a reason other teams are successful in bases loaded and no out situations and we are so terrible. That was on full display in the 12 inning loss to the Marlins. It was the same last year. Its time for some new voices on the offensive side. I won't even go into all the misguided sends from Watkins. That has been addressed plenty already. Right now I just want to see the team do something rash and impulsive. For once abandon their even keeled philosophy and do something to show fans that what has happened is unacceptable.

You know what bugs me? Is that the national media has largely ignored the Twins collapse. If this were the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers, the collapse would be headline news every day. They have focused on the Tigers run, understandably so as it has been a great story. However, their hot streak is pretty meaningless had the Twins even played .500 ball over the last month (add the Royals into that as well). The only thing the national media says is "Poor Twins, too many injuries again this year.". That's baloney. Injuries were a factor in the collapse but certainly was not the main cause. Why aren't they pointing out the teams horrid performance in all aspects of the game? Why aren't they calling out the front office for going O-fer in trying to bolster the bullpen? Not to mention, as I said I am convinced something more was going on with this team but we will never really know what was happening in that clubhouse.

I feel better (not really).

 

 

I hear you.  I always tell my boss at work "I'm not complaining, I'm just venting".  😉

Glad you are on the thread.  

[Coach Wheels]

Keep: Correa, Buxton, Larnach, Lewis, Castro, Wallner, Lee, Miranda (?), Ryan, Lopez, Ober, Varland (bullpen), Jax (bullpen), Duran (bullpen), Alcala ( bullpen), 

Everyone should be available for trade and regroup. What we found out for most of this year is the depth of young talent we thought we had was either badly overrated or had horrible years. Either way, half this roster needs to be retooled.

[Blyleven2011]

2 minutes ago, Mark G said:

I hear you.  I always tell my boss at work "I'm not complaining, I'm just venting".  😉

Glad you are on the thread.  

I switched to bitching , venting was good to do but wasn't helping or being heard  ....

Now I'm bitching loud and clear , hold someone accountable for this season  , it better not be the trainer this year like it was after 2022 season  ...

It's quite obvious that it's coaching and they are wasting the talent  they have  , Julien is an example  as is Miranda  collapse in the second half  ( maybe injured ), Lewis  , what has happened to his swing ...

how do other teams beat us  , they hit to other fields in situational hitting , they steal bases , they bunt , they do everything right to beat the twins because  the twins players aren't trained for it  ....

I could go on and on , but will end with saying it is not fun baseball to watch , I almost watch the games now to see who will make the biggest blunder to blow the game  , whether it coaching or players ...

[Mark G]

1 minute ago, Blyleven2011 said:

I switched to bitching , venting was good to do but wasn't helping or being heard  ....

Now I'm bitching loud and clear , hold someone accountable for this season  , it better not be the trainer this year like it was after 2022 season  ...

It's quite obvious that it's coaching and they are wasting the talent  they have  , Julien is an example  as is Miranda  collapse in the second half  ( maybe injured ), Lewis  , what has happened to his swing ...

how do other teams beat us  , they hit to other fields in situational hitting , they steal bases , they bunt , they do everything right to beat the twins because  the twins players aren't trained for it  ....

I could go on and on , but will end with saying it is not fun baseball to watch , I almost watch the games now to see who will make the biggest blunder to blow the game  , whether it coaching or players ...

I hear that, too.  

[Hubie29]

8 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

 

You will bother me forever. There's no way around that. 

[Blyleven2011]

7 minutes ago, Coach Wheels said:

Keep: Correa, Buxton, Larnach, Lewis, Castro, Wallner, Lee, Miranda (?), Ryan, Lopez, Ober, Varland (bullpen), Jax (bullpen), Duran (bullpen), Alcala ( bullpen), 

Everyone should be available for trade and regroup. What we found out for most of this year is the depth of young talent we thought we had was either badly overrated or had horrible years. Either way, half this roster needs to be retooled.

You forgot to mention  blewett , he hasn't blown it in his small sample size , wait till next year though ...

[Blyleven2011]

5 hours ago, mikelink45 said:

I won't feel bad about spending another 10 days in Italy. Looks like there's no reason to hurry back for the baseball season.  Showed you to post a picture

And you shouldn't feel bad in Italy  , but thanks for checking in ...

Have a good time ...

[LewFordLives]

I've been a Twins fan for over several decades. There's been good years and more than a few bad ones. I don't remember a season hurting as much as this one. They finished on a high note last year and things were looking up. Despite the payroll cut, they were decent through the first 2/3 of the season, and I was optimistic they could make a playoff run given the mediocre state of the AL. And then the bottom just completely fell out. Baseball can be a brutal game. I'm concerned it will take the organization years to wipe the stink away.

[lukeduke1980]

If other teams in town continue their relevancy it's going to take something besides right sizing payroll this offseason to attract anything but apathy from the fan base.  Good luck Derek.  Probably best to revisit 2001s Get to know 'em campaign and sell the masses on Zebby and Wallner

[Fezig]

There needs to be a lot of changes next year. What happened to this squad is toxic and has no doubt affected many of the players. There should be no less than five position battles next year - C, 1B, 2B, LF, & RF. Hopefully the new manager will find some players that want to win.

[Obie]

I'm not a stat guru, but I would like to see an analysis of individual batters comparing the first half of their individual seasons with their second half. For instance, Lewis played 80 games; I would like to see the stats from his first 40 compared to the second 40. I suspect the dropoff for Lewis, Miranda, Castro, Kepler, and Jeffers to be jarring.

[DJL44]

I'm glad that Rocco is disappointed in this season and upset with himself. I have little confidence that he will be able to change his habits to address his weaknesses. Is he capable of self-analysis and changing his preparation and training?

[h2oface]

9 hours ago, S Bart said:

For me, Pablo Lopez is a class act. It is very sad to see that picture at the top. He is articulate and a great team member who I have never heard complain. He puts forth a good effort and helps out the community through various endeavors. Gracias Pablo.

We sure could use a lot better and consistent performance for a year. Maybe next year, when he starts getting paid the 22 million. He was a classy just over 4 ERA pitcher, right there with his career average. Nice guy? Sure. Articulate? Yup. We sure could use a $22 million year in 2025 on the field.

[Craig Arko]

 

[h2oface]

8 hours ago, mnfireman said:

Hate it or not, tonight's error by Farmer was his 2nd of the season...

And that is BS. It may have been his 2nd officially scored error by the charity workers that are called official scorers, but that is only because they hardly ever score blunders errors anymore. I saw plenty more than 2, that's for sure.

[hitterscount]

12 hours ago, DocBauer said:

Another thread, another day.

I raise a toast to 2024 until mid August where I was having FUN as a fan.

And I'm going to STOP there!

ALWAYS an optimist, I'm HONESTLY excited about 2025 more than I was for this past season. 

I really and truly think the 2025 Twins are going to be better, and deeper, than 2024. ESPECIALLY if ownership doesn't do anything stupid! 

There's SO MUCH to like and SO MUCH hanging on the fringes to make a difference. HOPEFULLY, the pockets of ownership is loose enough to add even a little.

And I'm stopping there. Wrong time and place. 

 

They were in a favorable position in mid-August, but as many of us were saying,  Rocco's decisions took many wins and put them in the loss column... There is no need to revisit them, I will raise a toast when he is relived of his duties. This collapse is not surprising to me and there is no plausible reason for Rocco to be in the office on Monday....  Take the GM with him as well.

[pierre75275]

8 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Now we wait to see if ownership responds to this flaming sack of poop on the doorstep of Twins fans.

I would not hold your breath.

Nothing will change.

[Jimcotta]

23 minutes ago, Obie said:

I'm not a stat guru, but I would like to see an analysis of individual batters comparing the first half of their individual seasons with their second half. For instance, Lewis played 80 games; I would like to see the stats from his first 40 compared to the second 40. I suspect the dropoff for Lewis, Miranda, Castro, Kepler, and Jeffers to be jarring.

You forgot my favorite, Santana. My gosh how many guys did he leave on base over the last 3 weeks. It got to be comical. Seemed like every game he was in the middle of a potential rally and did nothing. I don't know what his RBI-less streak was until last Wednesday but it had to be significant. Their inability to get a big knock in key situations was mind boggling. I know Kepler was hurting but why did he once again  revert to that pull everything swing that has him rolling over on ground balls to second or weak fly balls to right. Did he forget that he had success up the middle and the other way last year?

OK now I am ranting again. Why hasn't more been said about Duran barely hitting 100 this year and last year he was consistently at 102-103. Did I miss explanations of this? To me that was significant. Not that he was horrible but he still wasn't the same as a year ago.

You have to wonder about the mood of the team after Lewis said again he ran out of gas and Correa saying that's a weak excuse. The younger guys must be thinking "Easy for you to say, you sat out half the year". It is a weak excuse though for the every day players. Every team is dinged up and tired. Why couldn't our guys push through. I do give a pass to Woods-Richardson, Festa and Matthews, especially SWR. For a pitcher, that many more innings has to wear you down.

[NYCTK]

37 minutes ago, Obie said:

I'm not a stat guru, but I would like to see an analysis of individual batters comparing the first half of their individual seasons with their second half. For instance, Lewis played 80 games; I would like to see the stats from his first 40 compared to the second 40. I suspect the dropoff for Lewis, Miranda, Castro, Kepler, and Jeffers to be jarring.

 

Here's wOBA over the three 2-month periods of the season, as well as the full season. 

March - May 31

June 1 - July 31

August 1 - Today

Name	1	2	3	Full
Matt Wallner	0.250	0.523	0.370	0.385
Carlos Correa	0.339	0.428	0.409	0.385
Byron Buxton	0.304	0.408	0.388	0.366
Trevor Larnach	0.334	0.320	0.351	0.336
Jose Miranda	0.324	0.421	0.241	0.328
Royce Lewis		0.392	0.273	0.324
Carlos Santana	0.295	0.367	0.302	0.321
Willi Castro	0.337	0.326	0.285	0.317
Ryan Jeffers	0.378	0.252	0.274	0.313
Max Kepler	0.351	0.281	0.243	0.298
Austin Martin	0.284	0.272	0.329	0.298
Kyle Farmer	0.235	0.301	0.365	0.295
Edouard Julien	0.300	0.284	0.245	0.283
Alex Kirilloff	0.299	0.169		0.282
Manuel Margot	0.240	0.324	0.259	0.277
Christian Vázquez	0.171	0.325	0.280	0.253
Brooks Lee		0.274	0.218	0.249

[David Maro]

Hard to work on fielding when you come to work not knowing what position you will be playing that day.Rocco believes he has 10 utility players on the bench.I remember him not being happy because Kepler told him he wanted to play only RF.If this organization stays pat with this FO and manager 2025 will be more of the same.Players have routines they work on every day and don't like changing.All the team's left in the playoffs don't move players like chess pieces.

[pierre75275]

Is it too soon to talk about the draft?

With missing the playoffs the Twins are eligible for the lottery, however slightly and the white Sox can not pick under 10. I think.

Ironic

[KikiMN]

I'm so happy they moved today's start time to get us on national TV.  I'll be there in person with a handful of other fans who thought, 5  months ago, that the games this weekend would be fun.

Free hats to the first 10,000! Enter  10 minutes before first pitch to get one.

[terrydactyls]

2 hours ago, Jimcotta said:

First time poster here. I live in an area nearly void of Twins fans. Everyone is a Yankees fan and that's all they pay attention to. They couldn't care less about talking Twins baseball. Even my wife just nods her head politely, when I start rambling about the Twins. So I needed to write this for my own mental health. To vent to people who live and die with the team like I do.

I can't even begin to grasp the magnitude of this collapse. How could the entire team tank like this for over a month? How could they be so bad in even the most basic of baseball skills? Has there ever been a worse base running team? A team so bad at situational hitting? What went wrong in the clubhouse that caused and prolonged this endless slump? Something did and I hope the front office makes it their mission to find out what it was and address it. I gave them a pass on the 2022 collapse. The roster was decimated by the end of the year but this year felt very different. Aside from the lack of execution on the field, something seems off with this squad that looked so good just a couple months ago.

Unlike most posters here, I wouldn't mind if Rocco stayed but I wouldn't mind if he is fired either. What will upset me is if next season we have the same hitting coaches and 3rd base coach. There has to be a reason other teams are successful in bases loaded and no out situations and we are so terrible. That was on full display in the 12 inning loss to the Marlins. It was the same last year. Its time for some new voices on the offensive side. I won't even go into all the misguided sends from Watkins. That has been addressed plenty already. Right now I just want to see the team do something rash and impulsive. For once abandon their even keeled philosophy and do something to show fans that what has happened is unacceptable.

You know what bugs me? Is that the national media has largely ignored the Twins collapse. If this were the Mets, Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers, the collapse would be headline news every day. They have focused on the Tigers run, understandably so as it has been a great story. However, their hot streak is pretty meaningless had the Twins even played .500 ball over the last month (add the Royals into that as well). The only thing the national media says is "Poor Twins, too many injuries again this year.". That's baloney. Injuries were a factor in the collapse but certainly was not the main cause. Why aren't they pointing out the teams horrid performance in all aspects of the game? Why aren't they calling out the front office for going O-fer in trying to bolster the bullpen? Not to mention, as I said I am convinced something more was going on with this team but we will never really know what was happening in that clubhouse.

I feel better (not really).

 

 

I also live in an area where the Twins are unknown.  Everything here is Red Sox (not that the Sox are worth talking about).  Outside of this website, the only time I hear the Twins mentioned is on MLB radio (and then it's followed by a chuckle). 

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the "You be the Front Office" article with all the salaries and contract information.  Then I can figure a way to cut another $10M to $20M from the payroll and still tell fans that we got a good chance to win the Central Division.

[LambchoP]

I said this last week, but there NEEDS to be some kind of accountability for this collapse, starting with Rocco. His idiotic in game decisions, the lack of fire or effort from the team, and no lack of urgency despite what he always says. We need a manager that holds players accountable and actually has some baseball IQ and feel for the game. A new hitting coach is long overdue too I think.  Wise, we need a first baseman, an outfielder or two, a starting pitcher and a few relief arms, but I doubt we grab anyone other than waiver wire, minor league scrap heap players as we always do and then call the off-season a success:(

[NYCTK]

7 minutes ago, pierre75275 said:

Is it too soon to talk about the draft?

With missing the playoffs the Twins are eligible for the lottery, however slightly and the white Sox can not pick under 10. I think.

Ironic

People say these types of things, but they aren't actually true. Sure, you have SOME players that are good enough to be played every day, and in a set position, but the best teams in the league will still move their players around the diamond. The Phillies do it, the Dodgers do it. 

Excluding catchers, how many of their top ten position players (by games played) played 5 or more games away from their "primary" position: 

Phillies - 7

Dodgers - 6

Yankees - 5 (but mainly OF swaps)

Guardians - 5

Astros - 5

Twins - 5

[NYCTK]

19 minutes ago, KikiMN said:

I'm so happy they moved today's start time to get us on national TV.  I'll be there in person with a handful of other fans who thought, 5  months ago, that the games this weekend would be fun.

Free hats to the first 10,000! Enter  10 minutes before first pitch to get one.

Based on recent attendance, you can probably get a couple! 

[terrydactyls]

15 minutes ago, David Maro said:

Hard to work on fielding when you come to work not knowing what position you will be playing that day.Rocco believes he has 10 utility players on the bench.I remember him not being happy because Kepler told him he wanted to play only RF.If this organization stays pat with this FO and manager 2025 will be more of the same.Players have routines they work on every day and don't like changing.All the team's left in the playoffs don't move players like chess pieces.

Excellent point!  A player can't take ground balls at 3B, 2B, SS, and then go chase flyballs in all three OF positions before a game.  It's nearly impossible to learn how to play balls off the outfield walls if you don't get the opportunity to practice.  And before someone says "a ground ball is the same regardless of where you play in the infield",  that is completely false.  Add to that the difficulty of turning a double play without practice time, and you have a team unprepared to play.