Marlins 4, Twins 1: Woof

[TwinsDr2021]

10 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I despise Margot being on this team, but in 41 games as a leadoff hitter he's hit .326/.380/.473/.853. It's literally the only thing he's been good at.

At this point in the season I am ignoring all that and I am putting my hottest hitter 1st (Buxton?), 2nd hottest hitter 2nd, and so on. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Now I get it they all have been pretty terrible so whatever lineup they put out there will look like trash.

But in a must win game, you have to ask the question which player do I want to get the most at bats, and if you answer Margot you should be fired, or if you answer if we lead off with Margot we can pinch hit and somebody else will get at bats, you should be fired.

I am putting my three "super stars" 1, 2, 3, Buxton, Lewis and Correa (in some order), end of story.

[hitterscount]

9 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

At this point in the season I am ignoring all that and I am putting my hottest hitter 1st (Buxton?), 2nd hottest hitter 2nd, and so on. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Now I get it they all have been pretty terrible so whatever lineup they put out there will look like trash.

But in a must win game, you have to ask the question which player do I want to get the most at bats, and if you answer Margot you should be fired, or if you answer if we lead off with Margot we can pinch hit and somebody else will get at bats, you should be fired.

I am putting my three "super stars" 1, 2, 3, Buxton, Lewis and Correa (in some order), end of story.

Exactly... Not even a tough decision, unfortunately Rocco cannot figure out the simplest concepts and now time has pretty much run out.

[1985Fan]

8 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

At this point in the season I am ignoring all that and I am putting my hottest hitter 1st (Buxton?), 2nd hottest hitter 2nd, and so on. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Now I get it they all have been pretty terrible so whatever lineup they put out there will look like trash.

But in a must win game, you have to ask the question which player do I want to get the most at bats, and if you answer Margot you should be fired, or if you answer if we lead off with Margot we can pinch hit and somebody else will get at bats, you should be fired.

I am putting my three "super stars" 1, 2, 3, Buxton, Lewis and Correa (in some order), end of story.

Rocco’s inability to understand when to sit players and when to ride the hot hand is incredible. You’re correct, the only guys hitting right now are Correa and Buxton. I would throw Wallner in one of the top three spots as well, even though he has only a handful of AB’s against lefties. Stats be damned at this point. Farmer has hit well lately, so he might fit in the top three or four. Other than those guys, everyone else is in a slump. 
And that’s the problem with this coaching staff. Their job is to maximize the talent they are given. The opposite happens with this team and this isn’t the first team wide slump we’ve seen. New coaching staff is needed. 

[Riverbrian]

Batting order? Seriously? 

What's that you say Sundance? You can't swim. 

It's the fall that'll Kill Ya. 

 

[chpettit19]

55 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

At this point in the season I am ignoring all that and I am putting my hottest hitter 1st (Buxton?), 2nd hottest hitter 2nd, and so on. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Now I get it they all have been pretty terrible so whatever lineup they put out there will look like trash.

But in a must win game, you have to ask the question which player do I want to get the most at bats, and if you answer Margot you should be fired, or if you answer if we lead off with Margot we can pinch hit and somebody else will get at bats, you should be fired.

I am putting my three "super stars" 1, 2, 3, Buxton, Lewis and Correa (in some order), end of story.

Isn't it a little contradictory to say "I am ignoring all that and I am putting my hottest hitter 1st..." and then end with putting Lewis in the top 3? You aren't "ignoring all that" if you'd put Lewis in the top 3. You're expressing 2 different strategies. Which is the point because it leads to the real answer of:

"Now I get it they all have been pretty terrible so whatever lineup they put out there will look like trash."

Why can't fans just say "dang, these players really fell apart and this roster isn't that talented. Not sure what any manager could do to make them succeed when they're playing like this?" Why can't it just be a lack of talent? Why can't we just say the bullpen has 2.5 good pitchers and the rotation has 1.5 so it's really going to be hard to get good pitching and win games? Why can't we just say the lineup has 3 good hitters, 2 of which have been back for a week and a half, so it's really going to be hard to get good hitting and win games? 

I mean I think we all know the answer is because people have a need to lay blame on someone and it's easier to point at the manager than saying the vast majority of the team has simply fallen apart. But every loss isn't Rocco's fault. Do any of you actually believe there's a magical lineup that would have this team scoring? The team was 1-9 with runners in scoring position and left 10 guys on base. Is that really because Manuel Margot got 3 PAs in the leadoff spot? If the other guys had been hitting in different lineup spots they would've driven those runs in? How many runs do you think the Twins score if it'd gone Correa, Buxton, Lewis...? Honestly, what real life difference do you think it would've made? Do you think they score at least 5 runs if he'd combined your 2 separate strategies that you're suggesting?

Most fans thought this team was going to win between about 84 and 88 games. This team is going to win about 84 games. So the low end of the expected outcomes, but still just about where most of us predicted. We all saw a flawed roster that wouldn't be able to survive any pitching struggles/injuries. I get that they got to the expected outcome in the most brutal of ways, but why are we so surprised that they aren't running away with the AL? As Dennis Green once said so eloquently...they are who we thought they were. Not sure why we can't just say that.

[Nashvilletwin]

13 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Batting order? Seriously? 

What's that you say Sundance? You can't swim. 

It's the fall that'll Kill Ya. 

 

Best comment of the day - by far!

[Riverbrian]

Veteran lineup in place last night. The guys who have been there... done that. 

Here is your service time report brought to you by Boeing. Boeing making airplanes since 1916. We've been there... done that. 

Margot 7.012

Correa 8.119

Buxton 7.160

Santana 13.115

Lewis 1.142

Farmer 5.129

Jeffers 3.089

Miranda 1.118

Castro 4.017

That's 7 players who have been there... done that. 

We got two games to make up in 5 games. Someone may want to ask the hypnotist to snap their fingers.

Or at least call Cher

 

 

[thelanges5]

Twins don’t have an extra base hit since Aug 17. This offense has been terrible. It’s as if the whole league has figured us out, and we are unable to make any type of adjustment.

Top 2 pitchers are fading down the stretch, bullpen only has 2.5 guys Rocco can trust. 
 

Have to win 4 out of the last 5 to even have a chance. They haven’t shown us any indication that they can do this. 

[Linus]

I feel bad for Ober. He has been a pretty good pitcher for us this year and he didn’t have it last night when we needed it the most. 
I think I am in the minority on this one but do people think Bark at the Park helps or hurts attendance?  I would never go to the park on those games. 

[Finfineman]

You get what you pay for.  The Four Billion dollars Pohlads earned 342 million dollars last year in revenue.  Their payroll was 156 million dollars.  Yet they couldnt find enough money to get an Ace pitcher.  Instead, we have been asked to be satisfied with Mathews and Festa with a 3-9 combined record.  It goes to show had they not inherited all that money, they would have been below average Joe's languishing somewhere out in the real world.  They arent winners.  And ironically, they cant take it with them.....

[thelanges5]

Feels like Groundhog Day:

 

[DJL44]

13 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Why can't fans just say "dang, these players really fell apart and this roster isn't that talented. Not sure what any manager could do to make them succeed when they're playing like this?" Why can't it just be a lack of talent? Why can't we just say the bullpen has 2.5 good pitchers and the rotation has 1.5 so it's really going to be hard to get good pitching and win games? Why can't we just say the lineup has 3 good hitters, 2 of which have been back for a week and a half, so it's really going to be hard to get good hitting and win games? 

I'm actually impressed by how much productivity Baldelli and Maki have been able to squeeze out of the 3 rookies in the rotation. That has been the silver lining of September.

[Linus]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

I'm actually impressed by how much productivity Baldelli and Maki have been able to squeeze out of the 3 rookies in the rotation. That has been the silver lining of September.

I agree. And they had one of the best rotations in baseball last year. Lots of changes need to be made but Maki needs to stay. 

[David Maro]

They lost to a team that has put 70 different players on the field!! 

Enough said 

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Isn't it a little contradictory to say "I am ignoring all that and I am putting my hottest hitter 1st..." and then end with putting Lewis in the top 3? You aren't "ignoring all that" if you'd put Lewis in the top 3. You're expressing 2 different strategies. Which is the point because it leads to the real answer of:

"Now I get it they all have been pretty terrible so whatever lineup they put out there will look like trash."

Why can't fans just say "dang, these players really fell apart and this roster isn't that talented. Not sure what any manager could do to make them succeed when they're playing like this?" Why can't it just be a lack of talent? Why can't we just say the bullpen has 2.5 good pitchers and the rotation has 1.5 so it's really going to be hard to get good pitching and win games? Why can't we just say the lineup has 3 good hitters, 2 of which have been back for a week and a half, so it's really going to be hard to get good hitting and win games? 

I mean I think we all know the answer is because people have a need to lay blame on someone and it's easier to point at the manager than saying the vast majority of the team has simply fallen apart. But every loss isn't Rocco's fault. Do any of you actually believe there's a magical lineup that would have this team scoring? The team was 1-9 with runners in scoring position and left 10 guys on base. Is that really because Manuel Margot got 3 PAs in the leadoff spot? If the other guys had been hitting in different lineup spots they would've driven those runs in? How many runs do you think the Twins score if it'd gone Correa, Buxton, Lewis...? Honestly, what real life difference do you think it would've made? Do you think they score at least 5 runs if he'd combined your 2 separate strategies that you're suggesting?

Most fans thought this team was going to win between about 84 and 88 games. This team is going to win about 84 games. So the low end of the expected outcomes, but still just about where most of us predicted. We all saw a flawed roster that wouldn't be able to survive any pitching struggles/injuries. I get that they got to the expected outcome in the most brutal of ways, but why are we so surprised that they aren't running away with the AL? As Dennis Green once said so eloquently...they are who we thought they were. Not sure why we can't just say that.

Prior to last night

Lewis was 4/16

Jeffers 0 -9

Margot 1 -10

Miranda 0 -14

Santana 1 -15

Wallner 4-15

Larnach - 4-17

Castro 2-13

Farmer 3 - 10

Buxton 4-19

Correa 2-14

 

As you can see Lewis actually has been one of the hotter hitters. The whole team has been terrible, is this all on Rocco, nope, As far as expected outcomes, again don't care, just like I don't care about if a pitcher or hitter was unlucky to say how much better they are then how they did. I agree they are who they thought they are.

 

 

 

[Sjoski]

I feel like I need to go to a funeral. Hopefully it's for the current regime.

             R.I.P.
Falvey 2017 - 2024
Rocco  2019 - 2024

[chpettit19]

11 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Prior to last night

Lewis was 4/16

Jeffers 0 -9

Margot 1 -10

Miranda 0 -14

Santana 1 -15

Wallner 4-15

Larnach - 4-17

Castro 2-13

Farmer 3 - 10

Buxton 4-19

Correa 2-14

 

As you can see Lewis actually has been one of the hotter hitters. The whole team has been terrible, is this all on Rocco, nope, As far as expected outcomes, again don't care, just like I don't care about if a pitcher or hitter was unlucky to say how much better they are then how they did. I agree they are who they thought they are.

 

 

 

Fine, then putting Correa in your top 3 contradicts you "hottest hitter" thing if he was 2-14.

But the point is to look at those numbers and say there is any definitive lineup that should be set. That's a pathetic list of players and numbers. This idea that they lost last night because of Rocco's batting order is ridiculous. There's not a lineup to be built out of that mess that anyone should even remotely come close to saying "this would've gotten us to 5 runs and a win last night." So I'll stick with my original point that Manuel Margot hitting leadoff against lefties is far from the biggest problem on this team.

[thelanges5]

This is only the 2nd time in the last 27 games that the Marlins allowed less than 3 runs. What are we doing?

[NYCTK]

21 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Fine, then putting Correa in your top 3 contradicts you "hottest hitter" thing if he was 2-14.

But the point is to look at those numbers and say there is any definitive lineup that should be set. That's a pathetic list of players and numbers. This idea that they lost last night because of Rocco's batting order is ridiculous. There's not a lineup to be built out of that mess that anyone should even remotely come close to saying "this would've gotten us to 5 runs and a win last night." So I'll stick with my original point that Manuel Margot hitting leadoff against lefties is far from the biggest problem on this team.

My god man. How you're still here arguing for something you have already said you wouldn't do is just mind blowing. We all agree Manuel Margot shouldn't be hitting leadoff but you insist on making a fool of yourself all in defense of the manager that does it. For some unknown reason. 

Yeah, Manuel Margot isn't the singular reason the Twins lost or collapsed in the last 6 weeks. I don't think anyone thinks that's the case. But it's emblematic of the problems of the organization. But you just crying "well akshually". 

It's almost like Carlos Correa has more of a track record than the 0.687 career OPS veteran. It's almost as if Margot being bad or on a cooler is reason enough not to lean on him in a must win game, and both being true makes it laughable. 

You weirdly demanded a lineup from me last night, so fine, here you go. With this team, I would also hit Correa leadoff against lefties. 

[JD-TWINS]

12 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Disappointing for sure. Needed strong performances from Lopez and Ober the last week. Not how I thought this would go a month ago. Something needs to change. 

I’m coming to this discussion late but I gotta say what others probably have, hitters need to remove their hands from around their throats when they get in the box.

Jeffers - Lee are horrible & Miranda is right there with them. Lee looks like the worst hitter on a church league team. The author here called it correctly, stating, “Jeffers popped out for the 12th time in his last 11 AB’s” ……Miranda seems to have reverted to ‘23 Jose. Julien has been so bad he got his first AB in a week, in the midst of nobody else performing.

Lewis seems to have come alive - encouraging.

Just saw on MLB Central some perspective from the Clubhouse Leader - Correa: …….paraphrasing……… “….This situation is poison to some and fuel for others. Those that use this as fuel go on to have beautiful, long careers. We have a bunch of young guys and they are getting help from a lot of sources. In the end it is up to you…..”

Been preaching this here for a couple months - the Manager & hitting coach & experienced veterans can only do so much to guide one in the batters box. The hitters gray matter - ability to focus - ability to maintain a confident outlook - and just plain talent are what needs to come together. Gotta do it - get it done, yourself!!!

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, thelanges5 said:

Feels like Groundhog Day:

 

He doesn’t go to the plate and bat 40 times a night - the players need to get off their ass and get their chins up - it’s a personal revelation they need to come to through the entire line-up.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Isn't it a little contradictory to say "I am ignoring all that and I am putting my hottest hitter 1st..." and then end with putting Lewis in the top 3? You aren't "ignoring all that" if you'd put Lewis in the top 3. You're expressing 2 different strategies. Which is the point because it leads to the real answer of:

"Now I get it they all have been pretty terrible so whatever lineup they put out there will look like trash."

Why can't fans just say "dang, these players really fell apart and this roster isn't that talented. Not sure what any manager could do to make them succeed when they're playing like this?" Why can't it just be a lack of talent? Why can't we just say the bullpen has 2.5 good pitchers and the rotation has 1.5 so it's really going to be hard to get good pitching and win games? Why can't we just say the lineup has 3 good hitters, 2 of which have been back for a week and a half, so it's really going to be hard to get good hitting and win games? 

I mean I think we all know the answer is because people have a need to lay blame on someone and it's easier to point at the manager than saying the vast majority of the team has simply fallen apart. But every loss isn't Rocco's fault. Do any of you actually believe there's a magical lineup that would have this team scoring? The team was 1-9 with runners in scoring position and left 10 guys on base. Is that really because Manuel Margot got 3 PAs in the leadoff spot? If the other guys had been hitting in different lineup spots they would've driven those runs in? How many runs do you think the Twins score if it'd gone Correa, Buxton, Lewis...? Honestly, what real life difference do you think it would've made? Do you think they score at least 5 runs if he'd combined your 2 separate strategies that you're suggesting?

Most fans thought this team was going to win between about 84 and 88 games. This team is going to win about 84 games. So the low end of the expected outcomes, but still just about where most of us predicted. We all saw a flawed roster that wouldn't be able to survive any pitching struggles/injuries. I get that they got to the expected outcome in the most brutal of ways, but why are we so surprised that they aren't running away with the AL? As Dennis Green once said so eloquently...they are who we thought they were. Not sure why we can't just say that.

We get it. When you've tied yourself to the position "managers don't matter in MLB, youve painted yourself into a corner of "Nothing is ever the manager's fault. Ever."

By definition, it CAN'T be.

 

The guy responsible for writing the everyday lineup. 

 

The guy who makes every single pitching decision for 162 games. 

 

The guy who watches Jorge Alcala turn a 4-0 lead into a 5-4 deficit. "Nothing he could do."

The guy who hasn't had the same lineup in back to back games in 6 years. Wow, can't believe nobody can maintain anything. 

Maybe pull back from focusing on Manny Margot in one game, and take a larger look at the manager for once. 

 

 

[JD-TWINS]

2 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

Twins don’t have an extra base hit since Aug 17. This offense has been terrible. It’s as if the whole league has figured us out, and we are unable to make any type of adjustment.

Top 2 pitchers are fading down the stretch, bullpen only has 2.5 guys Rocco can trust. 
 

Have to win 4 out of the last 5 to even have a chance. They haven’t shown us any indication that they can do this. 

Hoping the Yankees lock out the O’s from Division Winner contention tonight. Burnes is scheduled to throw Thursday and they’ll want him ready for next Tuesday - not facing the Twins. Hoping the O’s “rest some guys” over the weekend!!!!

Beat the Marlins or else - today’s the day.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, USAFChief said:

We get it. When you've tied yourself to the position "managers don't matter in MLB, youve painted yourself into a corner of "Nothing is ever the manager's fault. Ever."

By definition, it CAN'T be.

 

The guy responsible for writing the everyday lineup. 

 

The guy who makes every single pitching decision for 162 games. 

 

The guy who watches Jorge Alcala turn a 4-0 lead into a 5-4 deficit. "Nothing he could do."

The guy who hasn't had the same lineup in back to back games in 6 years. Wow, can't believe nobody can maintain anything. 

Maybe pull back from focusing on Manny Margot in one game, and take a larger look at the manager for once. 

 

 

Except I frequently say Rocco screwed things up. I was on these same boards complaining about taking Zebby out for Irvin the other day. So, apparently, you don't get it. You're the one who's decided it's always his fault. I have this crazy thing where I can say he does some things well and some things poorly. I can agree with some of his moves and disagree with others. I can defend easily defendable decisions instead of just searching around to make it Rocco's fault the entire lineup went 1-9 with RISP. 

I didn't say "nothing he could do" about the Alcala game. I've never said his frequently changed lineups are great decisions. I'm sorry if other people have, but don't put that on me just because you don't like Rocco.

Maybe pull back from focusing on Rocco being the cause of all their problems and just accept that sometimes, in fact, most of the time, it's the players on the field who are at fault for failing. I didn't bring up Margot. I did what you asked me to the other day and defended the position with a logical, stat based defense. You're the one trying force this into your narrative. Not me.

[joefish]

I hope Correa and Buxton do NOT somehow resurrect us for a trip into the playoffs. I don't want to watch that happen. We don't deserve to make it into the playoffs.

My disappointment in losing to the Dodgers in 1965 is being being covered by this year's collapse.

Pfffft.

 

[Mike Sixel]

6 minutes ago, joefish said:

I hope Correa and Buxton do NOT somehow resurrect us for a trip into the playoffs. I don't want to watch that happen. We don't deserve to make it into the playoffs.

My disappointment in losing to the Dodgers in 1965 is being being covered by this year's collapse.

Pfffft.

 

I always prefer they win. I don't get this sentiment at all.

[chpettit19]

33 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

My god man. How you're still here arguing for something you have already said you wouldn't do is just mind blowing. We all agree Manuel Margot shouldn't be hitting leadoff but you insist on making a fool of yourself all in defense of the manager that does it. For some unknown reason. 

Yeah, Manuel Margot isn't the singular reason the Twins lost or collapsed in the last 6 weeks. I don't think anyone thinks that's the case. But it's emblematic of the problems of the organization. But you just crying "well akshually". 

It's almost like Carlos Correa has more of a track record than the 0.687 career OPS veteran. It's almost as if Margot being bad or on a cooler is reason enough not to lean on him in a must win game, and both being true makes it laughable. 

You weirdly demanded a lineup from me last night, so fine, here you go. With this team, I would also hit Correa leadoff against lefties. 

People replied to me, so I replied to them. You could definitely have chosen not to have responded to a message that wasn't for you, but here we are.

Correa hitting 2 instead of 1 makes it "laughable?" Got it. Real deep dive analysis on that one. So far your points have been to use Margot's career numbers instead of in-season numbers, but use other people's in-season numbers instead of career numbers, and that Correa hitting 2 instead of 1 was a massive blow to their chances. Real mind blowing breakdown there. Glad you came back for more of this earth shattering analysis.

Margot having an .835 OPS in the leadoff spot is emblematic of the problems of the organization? Cool. Sounds like some real first world problems when your 2 primary leadoff hitters have 140 and 139 wRC+ in that spot. Really bringing the lineup down. Can't wait to hear your next great insight. Sorry if my stats from this actual season got in the way of you being mad at Rocco. If he'd lead-off Julien you'd have a really nice argument.

[bean5302]

12 hours ago, Althebum82 said:

right on queue?

Perhaps you are saying that if he didn't wait around so much in line that his fly balls would land ten feet further? You may be right, and it would, of course, have to happen right on cue to be true.

 

Nah, he's saying that the warning track fly balls are all queued up in advance. It's part of a play Minnesota sports fans hoping for playoff runs should be familiar with. This is our yea..... ahhhh crap, not again!!!!

[ashbury]

24 minutes ago, joefish said:

I hope Correa and Buxton do NOT somehow resurrect us for a trip into the playoffs. I don't want to watch that happen. We don't deserve to make it into the playoffs.

You'd rather not see five wins in a row?  That's pretty much what it would take for your scenario to play out.  And then followed by two quick losses?  I dunno, that's cutting off your nose to spite your face, in my book.  I want to see winning baseball.

[chinmusic]

Again, with the "we don't deserve it" schtick. Makes no sense. They're not going to win 5 in a row, because they are playing really poorly. Still want to see how it plays out, though. Isn't that why we're fans?