City Problems

[Squirrel]

11 minutes ago, SAL said:

Humanity issue? Triggered? You might not have a problem walking down the street, but maybe a young female, or a dumb suburbanite as you call them, does. A good person protects the vulnerable by preventing crime not reacting to it. I'm betting you have more of a flight response than a fight response. 

I am female. And I walk home from work to home, alone, at night. I am female, and take the train to the ballparks, mostly alone because my friends have little interest in baseball. I am female, and I work, shop, hang out, go places, and have a life, in the city.

[Squirrel]

6 minutes ago, Minderbinder said:

Classy.  Fine, I'm happy to take my family's money elsewhere.

I didn't call you dumb, I said don't be dumb. I never said suburbanites were dumb, simply suggested not to act it when they come to the city and expect things to be the way they want it to be, and then get affronted when they are not.

You can go wherever you want. I'm glad you have the money to do so.

[Rod Carews Birthday]

55 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

Sorry, but most of you are just weenies. Sorry, but you are. 'ACK!!!! THAT SCARES ME!' <run away, run away, run away>

Baseball in the city is great. And I will go to every city to catch a game, one day, God willing.

Hello @Squirrel!  I couldn’t agree with your assessment more.  I also live near Chicago (not in it, but out in the burbs) and it becomes a major source of frustration (and surprisingly humor) when I hear people talk about how awful the city is and how it’s just going downhill every day and how nobody wants to even go there anymore.  Judging by the traffic I am in every time I go to Chicago, the complainers obviously aren’t making the impact they think they are — they’re just loud.  

Unfortunately, many people make observations based on “Yesterday I came here and didn’t see a problem, but today I saw one so obviously it’s all falling apart” small sample size.  No amount of (true) statistics that talk about how much crime rates have fallen in the last 20 or 30 years seem to have an impact on their arguments either.  But, as the original author posted, they are bombarded with a one sided narrative all day and choose to believe it, because they don’t necessarily know any better.  Undoubtedly, San Francisco has the same things working against it, as does Minneapolis-St. Paul.  

Whether any of those things cause players to avoid signing in those cities is dubious at best, as we all know that money speaks much louder than any perceived crime issues, especially because that kind of money can pretty much obliterate any concerns that one might have about them.  Sometimes it’s just about how much the organization sucks that prevent people from wanting to join it.  Some teams (Chicago Bears, ahem!) just can’t get out of their own way and others, even though more successful, have a reputation as a place that it isn’t fun to be there.  This should have been Rosenthal’s point, if he even actually had one. 

[Woof Bronzer]

22 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I don't know why San Francisco is singled out as a particularly high crime city.

Because bad faith actors are doing the singling out, for political purposes. 

Crime is actually down in SF compared to 10-20 years ago.  But that doesn't fit the narrative, so the bad faith actors just make up a narrative to serve their own needs.  This isn't unique to SF; Dave St Peter did a similar thing 2022 by blaming "public safety" (2+ years after Floyd riots) for declining attendance as a way to excuse the team's poor performance.  Gross all around.  

 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

There is crime everywhere. Thinking cities are crime all the time is just as accurate as believing rural areas are nothing but wife-beating rednecks cooking meth while high on Oxycontin.

I don't know why San Francisco is singled out as a particularly high crime city. St. Louis has by far the highest crime rate of any major league city and we didn't hear about that when Sonny Gray signed with the Cardinals. Baltimore, Cleveland, Kansas City and Detroit aren't particularly attractive when it comes to crime rates either. If free agents were only concerned about crime rates they'd be flocking to Tampa, FL.

List of United States cities by crime rate - Wikipedia

The reality is rich people can buy themselves out of problems with street crime. Every major city has high priced neighborhoods catering to rich folks so they don't have to interact with the rest of us.

I agree with your comments and also look over these statistics on a routine basis.

One note is that the Rays home is in St. Petersburg, not Tampa. The bridge and travel to get from the Tampa area to The Trop in St. Pete has often been stated as a reason for the poor attendance at Rays games. Tampa did have a brief period of glory in the early 1980s where it led the country in violent crime per population. 

 

[Woof Bronzer]

 

 

1 hour ago, SF Twins Fan said:

SF is now a **** hole.  I lived there from 2015 - 2017 and have gone back in recent years to visit friends.  It was a nice city at one point but it has steadily gone downhill. 

Crime has gone down in SF since then.  But don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.  

[DJL44]

25 minutes ago, SAL said:

your opinion that I can't express my opinion is the problem. 

Anyone can express their opinion. If you put an opinion out into the world expect it to be critiqued. If your opinion can't stand up to critique then it isn't worth much. This applies to discussions about cities as much as it does discussions about who the 26th man on the Twins roster should be.

[AlGoreRythm]

Kind of amazing how many people took the OP personally and got offended. They're the same people posting not about the baseball implications, but just how bad crime is in cities. Almost as if they have skewed perspectives...

[TwinsDr2021]

6 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

 

 

Crime has gone down in SF since then.  But don't let facts get in the way of your narrative.  

https://www.sfgate.com/crime/article/San-Francisco-crime-Chesa-Boudin-London-Breed-16751930.php

 

[mikelink45]

Wow - the comments are really strong with emotion.  I believe baseball players will sign anywhere that they get the money they want.  Of course Ohtani chose LA- look at that contract!  And Judge choosing NY was not about geography - NY is where he has always played and is his comfort zone.  Correa did not reject SF.

I worked in SF this past year and they have a problem with the homeless because they have taken over a street that is in the center of the city.  The wharf and other areas are still great, but we have an issue in every city with what to do with the massive homeless issue. 

"The Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) counted around 582,000 Americans experiencing homelessness in 2022. That's about 18 per 10,000 people in the US, up about 2,000 people from 2020."  https://usafacts.org/articles/how-many-homeless-people-are-in-the-us-what-does-the-data-miss/

[TwinsDr2021]

5 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

Wow - the comments are really strong with emotion.

It is almost like writing an agenda driven political editorial and using baseball as the analogy shouldn't be allowed on this site?

[Woof Bronzer]

1 hour ago, TopGunn#22 said:

You can't deny the very REAL rise in crime in many metropolitan areas.  You can't avoid the carnage that still remains in downtown Minneapolis after the George Floyd riots.  And you can't deny the effect the "defund the police" movement has had on many inner cities.  

 

Crime is actually down across the board to pre-pandemic levels.  You obviously haven't been to downtown Minneapolis in years, if ever.  And no police department in the country was defunded.   

[Rod Carews Birthday]

Just now, TwinsDr2021 said:

It is almost like writing an agenda driven political editorial and using baseball as the analogy shouldn't be allowed on this site?

I don’t entirely disagree with this, but the article was essentially a review of statements by a nationally prominent writer that was already using the analogy. There really wasn’t anywhere else to go with it unless one was 100% in agreement with it.  The vitriol that surfaced in the comments would seem to reinforce the narrative.  

I would really like it if politics (of either side) could stay entirely out of sports (and many other things), but like it or not, they are intrusive.  All too often, what happens affects one’s favorite team or players in ways that are not positive so it forces us to all deal with it, each in our own ways. 

[tony&rodney]

The United States was at war with itself from roughly 1970-1995, with rates peaking in the early 1900s. Murder, violent crime, and property crime fell off rather dramatically until a spike that began in 2015. Crime, today, remains substantially lower than the 70s, 80s, 90s, or 00s.

https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/us-crime-rates-and-trends-analysis-fbi-crime-statistics

The social ills referenced by many in the comments are largely a result of growing inequality from 1980 onward that has reversed the trends from roughly 1900-1980. These are choices made by populations (voters). Social problems are distinct from crime.

Posey moved back to San Francisco from Atlanta the area because he loves the SF area and it is where he wants his kids to grow up. He is frustrated that the Giants have been unable to sign some free agents and wonders if the perceptions have become reality. In fact, players choose where they play for reasons that do not necessarily have anything to do with negatives, but rather reflect their own preferences. Ohtani likes where he lives in Los Angeles and wants to drive to work, so it was never going to be anywhere but the Dodgers. Aaron Judge was always going to sign with the Yankees. He loves the city and the legacy of being a Yankee great has its own allure. Joe Mauer was always going to retire a Minnesota Twin. He couldn't change his clothes or accent. There isn't any reason to read too much into why athletes make their choices of where to work. People are different.

[DJL44]

13 minutes ago, SF Twins Fan said:

Crime rates are going to decrease when policies make it legal to do drugs

It may be distasteful, but if it's legal it isn't a crime. I really hate walking through cigarette smoke and seeing cigarette butts on the ground but it isn't a crime to smoke a cigarette.

I will agree that homelessness is up which means people are going to be more likely to interact with people who are homeless. Not having a home is also not a crime.

[TwinsDr2021]

4 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Crime is actually down across the board to pre-pandemic levels.  You obviously haven't been to downtown Minneapolis in years, if ever.  And no police department in the country was defunded.   

https://www.minneapolismn.gov/government/government-data/datasource/crime-dashboard/

The three year average doesn't match your statement. for example homicide in MPLS in 2019 was 48, this year is down from last year though (which is good)

Both sides if you are going to make blanket statement have the numbers to back it up.

[TwinsDr2021]

4 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

It may be distasteful, but if it's legal it isn't a crime. I really hate walking through cigarette smoke and seeing cigarette butts on the ground but it isn't a crime to smoke a cigarette.

I will agree that homelessness is up which means people are going to be more likely to interact with people who are homeless. Not having a home is also not a crime.

I think you missed the point on that one. If drugs are legal or not prosecuted, there are no more arrests for possession, selling, distribution, etc.. and if all other crimes stay the same, your overall crime rate goes down. See my fact check link above.

[Brock Beauchamp]

This thread is (rather unsurprisingly) going off the rails. Please stop debating crime statistics, this piece was about Rosenthal and the Giants blowing smoke and how their rationale doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Keep it on topic.

[Tibs]

Why in the world is this an article allowed on the front page of Twins Daily? This is a joke.

The articles on the front page of Twins Daily have been in clear decline the past 1-2 years with obvious click bait, ridiculous hypotheticals that no one asked for,  and now this.

How about the "Other Baseball" forum? Or better yet, "Sports Bar". Unfortunately, this article is hardly sports related. See the rest of the comments for proof.

Matthew, I see your profile marks you as an administrator. For you to post this article on the front page that has nothing to do with Twins baseball and filled with your own bias and political opinions is completely absurd. Whether what you put in this article is true or not, it's clear your intent wasn't to talk about baseball.

[TwinsDr2021]

7 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This thread is (rather unsurprisingly) going off the rails. Please stop debating crime statistics, this piece was about Rosenthal and the Giants blowing smoke and how their rationale doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

Keep it on topic.

Isn't that what this opinion editorial is about? "Players, for whatever reason, have a negative perception of San Francisco right now."

The author goes on to explain why they are wrong with no facts and using only antidotal evidence to back it up.

The only real why to say on topic for something like this is to say I agree or I disagree? Correct?

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Isn't that what this opinion editorial is about? "Players, for whatever reason, have a negative perception of San Francisco right now."

The author goes on to explain why they are wrong with no facts and using only antidotal evidence to back it up.

The only real why to say on topic for something like this is to say I agree or I disagree? Correct?

The article is about excuse-making by the Giants and Rosenthal's broadcasting of those excuses. The article does a good job of counter-balancing Posey's opinion with actual events that happened surrounding Aaron Judge, Carlos Correa, Shohei Ohtani, and many others.

[DJL44]

26 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

this piece was about Rosenthal and the Giants blowing smoke and how their rationale doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

It doesn't really have anything to do with the Twins. It would be a good article for Ken Rosenthal Daily.

[TwinsDr2021]

15 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The article is about excuse-making by the Giants and Rosenthal's broadcasting of those excuses. The article does a good job of counter-balancing Posey's opinion with actual events that happened surrounding Aaron Judge, Carlos Correa, Shohei Ohtani, and many others.

I didn't get that out of this article at all. To me it sounded like the Giants feel like "they've got a geography problem, or a city problem, I guess I would say,""

If they are making the same offers or better as others and players are turning it down and saying something along those lines as part of the reason. Maybe it is a lie and something to run cover from their fans. But we all know San Fran doesn't have to best reputation right, on top of they always have the large state tax to deal with. 

But this author went much further than just this, he called them liars, bigots, and other names and tried to prove without real facts why they are liars and bigots. (he left out crapapp and other things that give people this impression).

if you don't want comments on articles don't put them up. Plus maybe not have your gold caretakers call people names.

 

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

Why is this here? Why is this here? Click bait, agreed.

[nicksaviking]

This is bonkers and a bunch of propaganda. I've been to the downtown of pro sports cities Seattle, LA, LV, Phoenix, Denver, Dallas, San Antonio, Nashville, Tampa-St. Pete, Orlando, Miami, Buffalo, Cleveland, Chicago and Milwaukee and probably four dozen times in Minneapolis in the last decade, and most of those places since the pandemic, and not a single one of those cites had an unsafe atmosphere. Full disclosure, I haven't been to San Francisco in probably 20 years, but if anything, it was way more European than every other American city I've been to. I pretty much ONLY go downtown, that's where all the fun and entertainment is.

I'm quite confident that people are conflating homelessness with an unsafe atmosphere and I think that speaks more to those who feel 'unsafe' than it does the city. If you can't handle AND EMPATHIZE with homeless people, there's probably not a city with more than 50,000 people you should visit.

[sweetmusicviola16]

4 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

This is bonkers and a bunch of propaganda. I've been to the downtown of pro sports cities Seattle, LA, LV, Phoenix, Denver, Dallas, San Antonio, Nashville, Tampa, Orlando, Miami, Buffalo, Cleveland, Chicago and Milwaukee and probably four dozen times in Minneapolis in the last decade, and most of those places since the pandemic, and not a single one of those cites had an unsafe atmosphere. Full disclosure, I haven't been to San Francisco in probably 20 years, but if anything, it was way more European than every other American city I've been to. I pretty much ONLY go downtown, that's where all the fun and entertainment is.

I'm quite confident that people are conflating homelessness with an unsafe atmosphere and I think that speaks more to those who feel 'unsafe' than it does the city. If you can't handle AND EMPATHIZE with homeless people, there's probably not a city with more than 50,000 people you should visit.

EPATHIZE with homeless people. Who says we don't?

You have multiple opinions on the issue and probably hundreds of opinions on what to do about it. This is supposed to be a baseball site. Nothing about the issue is going to get solved here, only create hard feelings and division. This story with it's opinions should not be on the front page. Do we trade Polanco and or Kepler? That should be on the front page.

 

[Fezig]

2 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Well, you can since the "defund the police" folks didn't get anything they asked for. The budget for police officers in Minneapolis actually increased substantially.

How much of the funding went to increase the number of police officers. The city was down over 200 in 2021. Did the budget account for COLA, new equipment, rebuilding the destroyed police station, etc..? Budget does not indicate the number of officers. 

[DJL44]

17 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

This is bonkers and a bunch of propaganda. I've been to the downtown of pro sports cities Seattle, LA, LV, Phoenix, Denver, Dallas, San Antonio, Nashville, Tampa-St. Pete, Orlando, Miami, Buffalo, Cleveland, Chicago and Milwaukee and probably four dozen times in Minneapolis in the last decade

Las Vegas might be the most disgusting town I've ever visited and MLB just decided to move the Oakland Athletics there. Rampant drug use, prostitution, garbage everywhere and it's hotter than the surface of the sun.

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The article is about excuse-making by the Giants and Rosenthal's broadcasting of those excuses. The article does a good job of counter-balancing Posey's opinion with actual events that happened surrounding Aaron Judge, Carlos Correa, Shohei Ohtani, and many others.

In attempting to do so, i.e., buttress an opinion of Rosenthal, this op-ed selectively quoted a player, Posey, and threw in a gratuitous, wholly unnecessary "whiteness" reference, thereby injecting politics front-and-center into the op-ed.  It attempted to counter Posey's view with other players' decisions, which, as a matter of logic does nothing more than validate the time-honored truism that to each his/her own.  So what?  It was a so-what, political op-ed that's attracted political comments to an article that was, by definition, political.  Either cut-off comments or get rid of the op-ed (nicely, of course).

[Craig Arko]

Wait, life is sometimes messy and occasionally dangerous? How we ever made it this long remains a mystery.