Mariners 9, Twins 7: Twins Bullpen Implodes Against the Mariners

[insagt1]

Bullpen management aside...when you come in with a nice lead your job is to throw strikes. In both the 8th and 9th, a lot of those runs may not have happened had the pitchers not put 4 men on base, unintentionally. Moran was nowhere near the strike zone, except when he grooved one. Blowing the 4 run lead was a direct function of gifting Mariners baserunners.

Back long ago, bullpen aces pitched a lot more. Can begin the debate as to why they are now listed 'unavailable' after appearing in two straight games. (last night O's fans left scratching when Bautista didn't come out in the 9th, after sitting out the previous game, to protect a hard fought 2-1 lead. Instead Hyde called on a shaky of late Cano to close and he couldn't do it.)

18 more k's is completely unacceptable at every turn. If Twins are to seriously compete the rest of the way, they just have to make more contact. We can forget last nights meltdown; only 1 loss, right...but still it shouldn't have happened. Can't give games away by YOU not making contact and YOUR pitchers can't throw strikes when it counts most.

Win today, win the series and move on will be fine.

[TopGunn#22]

Bullpen management is Rocco's weakest aspect.  He just seems to have an uncanny knack for selecting the wrong guy.  I hope the Twins use last night as an "teachable moment."  Getting Stewart and Theilbar back will help a lot.  But they could use at least one and probably two BP pieces.  One of them can be more of a middle inning guy.  But one needs to be able to close a game out when Duran is not available, or if Duran is called upon to put out the fire that was the 8th inning. Lopez was supposed to be that guy.  But he can't be counted on.

[AceWrigley]

Walks will haunt.

[USAFChief]

3 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

Twins fans look at this game and see a bullpen implosion. 

Everyone, everywhere sees a bullpen implosion. 

The Mariners didn't rally through good hitting.

They rallied because Moran and Ortega melted down.

[Puckett34]

Maybe this has been asked earlier, but why wasn't Duran used?  Were they giving him an extra day off due to pitching two in a row over the weekend (Friday/Saturday)?  I know it's one game and may not change the outcome.

[David Maro]

Terrible lose,can't give games away like this. BP knows I have to face 3 or more hitters,will need to throw strikes. Moran couldn't find the plate if he was standing on it. The HP umpire was giving pitchers a big strike zone,so use it. The first 2 games with Seattle 30 strike outs,that is equal to 10 innings of outs. Him sorry but why is Joey Strike Out still on the team. He has shown he is a automatic out. They now gave Seattle a boost to take the series.

[DJL44]

10 hours ago, Danchat said:

Seems like Sands is being treated like the mop-up guy, and doesn't have the trust to be used in any other scenario. It's unfortunate, but it's common for teams to carry a guy like this. Moran-Pagan-Ortega have not been overused and should have been able to handle this.

Moran, Ortega and Sands should be in AAA. Balazovic is a mirage. They need Thielbar, Stewart AND two more solid relievers for this bullpen.

[USAFChief]

4 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Moran, Ortega and Sands should be in AAA. Balazovic is a mirage. They need Thielbar, Stewart AND two more solid relievers for this bullpen.

I'm hoping Thielbar provides effective help, but I'm not counting on it. He's 36 and hasnt pitched in weeks.

And Stewart's history isn't really much different than Ortega. I am NOT expecting the magic pixie dust to still be there.

Hope I'm wrong, but I don't think there's a very good chance real bullpen help exists internally.  

[DJL44]

6 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I'm hoping Thielbar provides effective help, but I'm not counting on it. He's 36 and hasnt pitched in weeks.

I agree with this. Even if he's effective he might not be able to stay healthy. A lefthanded reliever is a definite priority.

It's not too difficult to hide a AAA level reliever on the roster but last night shows you can't hide four of them.

[mikelink45]

I have read the comments and all my thoughts are redundant.  As a critic of Gallo from day one and years before I just cannot stomach the Ks - 18 for the team - Gallo 2 in 2 at bats, and this valuable bat gets PH for by Solano - even Rocco knows we cannot depend on him.   Looking at his last five games he is 0 for 12 with 8 Ks.  that is a K average of 750!  That is a stat - does the FO limit the stats they look at?

Of course 18 Ks for the team means that Gallo is not the only one flailing.  Larnach just cannot grab hold of his chances like Kiriloff and Julien and Wallner.  I am disappointed in him.  

As a team we are far ahead of the second place Mariners in the race to strikeout more.  We are the only team over 1000.  1065 and Joey only has 109 and he is just above Byron Buxton 106.  

Yesterday on MLB.com there was this conversation about Buxton - Buxton conversation.  Play him in the OF.  If he gets injured it is something that we have dealt with and what he is doing as DH is not acceptable.   This conversation covers my thoughts.   Good look at Kiriloff in this video too.

On the pitching side I am like the rest of you - why is Cole Sands on the team if we are afraid to use him?  Pagan only gets 1 run charged against him, but the HR drove in more that he does not get charged with.  Of all the stats RP era is worthless.  This is old Pagan - key situation - HR.  Let's hope it is only a one game blip because he has actually done well overall this season.

Moran is a real disappointment.  I thought he had real potential, but he has a -0.2 WAR on BR.  And a 1.388 WHIP.

 

 

[John Belinski]

Sometimes the Twins win a game they should have lost and last night they lost a game they should have won. They signed a veteran pitcher and he is pitching well for the Saints so why not bring him up to Twins. He would have not  have walked 2 batters and Twins would have won game.  It seems odd that the bullpen catcher can not see that the pitcher that is warming up isn't throwing strikes. We all know(except Rocco) that Pagan can pitch well when there is no pressure and can not pitch under pressure.

[joefish]

The things we do for fun.

No sweat. Get after them today. 

 

[hitterscount]

With one of the strongest starting rotations in baseball how is the BP spent/gassed? It’s not even August and we are using this excuse. Really pathetic INO. This team lacks the mental strength to compete against good teams, this nice run has been accomplished against pretty bad teams.

Rocco might be the worst manager in BP usage, no way should these guys be “spent “. Also the FO needs to send some of these underachievers down and reward the pitchers in the minors that are performing with a call up. Moran and Sands are obvious choices. 

Can’t win them all but blowing 4 run leads in the 8th is not acceptable . Get todays game, win the KC series and keep putting distance between Cleveland. 

[IaBeanCounter]

11 hours ago, BH67 said:

So three bad bullpen performances result in...one loss.

Statistically, I can live with that.

I agree, I would rather have the bad appearances grouped in one bad loss than spread over 3 potential losses,  Including last night Ortega, Moran and Pagan have allowed earned runs in 33.3%, 32.5% and 19.5%, respectively of the games they appear in.  Jax and Duran have allowed earned runs in 22.2% and 21.6% of their appearances.   It appears last nights game has cost Ortega his spot on the 26 man roster.

2 hours ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

I'm soooooooooooooooooo tired of Pagan. If you give him 10 high-leverage situations, he'll implode in 9 of them. 

Actually its more of 6 of 10.  Has come in when the Twins are leading by 3 runs or less 5 times and has 2 holds and 3 BS.  I don't believe we lose if Pagan starts the inning.  Just my opinion

The bullpen was bad, and even though the Twins scored 7 runs I'm disappointed in the their at bats after Wallner's homerun.  It's like each of them was trying to paid their HR stat line.  Following the HR there were 20 outs until the end of 7th inning (before BP blowup).  Of the 20 outs one was a SF and one was a CS, leaving 18 outs.  Of the 18 outs 14 were strikeouts.  What if there were only 7 (over 9 per 9 innings) that would leave 7 outs on balls in play.  Assuming a .300 BABIP that means there would have been 3 more hits (assuming no HRs).  The Twins had 6 runs on 7 hits through 7.  If those 3 hits had generated one more run, even with the blowup, Duran would have had a 1 run lead into the 9th.

This was a bad loss that I blame on a combination of factors.  12th game in 12 days, 2 extra inning games the previous 2 days and baseball luck.  The Twins had 2 9th inning comeback games in a row and this was the baseball gods evening things out.  

[Linus]

This not the fault of Moran Pagan or Ortega. They are trying their best. This is not Rocco’s fault as he has to use someone other than Duran and Jax. The FO assembled this pen and once again it’s not good I’ve been predicting this since spring training. They have their special plan for building bullpens and it doesn’t work but they are too stubborn to change. So we will use up more of our thin farm system to fix this at the trade deadline. 

[AceWrigley]

If the Twins are going to extend the quality of the bullpen it will probably have to come from outside the organization.  The injured arms coming back may not perform as before (other than Thielbar) as they don't have a track record of major league success.

There are probably only 2 minor league relievers worth a look and thats Kody Funderburk (LH) and Reggie Grace (RH), maybe lefthander Michael Boyle. Everybody else just allows too many baserunners. Keuchel has pitched well enough at St. Paul but is probably ramping up arm strength and endurance.

Also, I don't like the way acquiring other people's arms has turned out for this front office: high price paid with questionable performance and or health in return.

The What-Are-You-Crazy choice would be to promote Marco Raya to throw some late inning darts, but would that interrupt his development?

[Mike Sixel]

43 minutes ago, Linus said:

This not the fault of Moran Pagan or Ortega. They are trying their best. This is not Rocco’s fault as he has to use someone other than Duran and Jax. The FO assembled this pen and once again it’s not good I’ve been predicting this since spring training. They have their special plan for building bullpens and it doesn’t work but they are too stubborn to change. So we will use up more of our thin farm system to fix this at the trade deadline. 

Thin? I don't think that's right at all. 

[FLtwinfan]

Funderburk with another nice outing last night. 2 hitless innings with 3 K’S. Worth a look in the bullpen.

[HokieRif]

I hate being negative but thats all I've got for Rocco after last night.  For as much as this management loves to rely on stats I'm absolutely floored as to why Ortega was called in to take the 9th.  He's a career ~4.0+ ERA guy... basically he's liable to give up a run every other inning of work.  In his last appearance against CWS he pitched two scoreless innings... meaning he was statistically overdue to give up runs.

Duran should have taken the mound, and if he had we're probably talking happily about how it would be nice to run away with a game soon instead of the walk-offs, just to have a night to relax.

[HokieRif]

1 hour ago, Linus said:

This not the fault of Moran Pagan or Ortega. They are trying their best. This is not Rocco’s fault as he has to use someone other than Duran and Jax. The FO assembled this pen and once again it’s not good I’ve been predicting this since spring training. They have their special plan for building bullpens and it doesn’t work but they are too stubborn to change. So we will use up more of our thin farm system to fix this at the trade deadline. 

Agree re: Pagan and Ortega, mostly.  Disagree on Rocco - he had to have had input into the F/O either from himself and his staff.  He wasn't the one making the signings but he's still an accomplice in this.

[IaBeanCounter]

What are they going to do with Keuchel? 

1)  Bring him as a starter to allow starts to be skipped by top 5 as needed or as 6th starter?

2) Bring him as a LH reliever?  

3) Let him walk? In 5 starts with the Saints he has an ERA of .69 over 26 innings.

[Cap'n Piranha]

I see no point in acquiring middle relief relievers--there's so much variability that for every Romo and Fulmer you acquire, you also get a Dyson or Lopez.  To build a competent bullpen these days you either need 5 great options (at minimum), or you need to be willing to have a revolving door of options, so you can constantly trade in new guys until you find some who stick.

[Whitey333]

18 strikeouts is horrendous.  Pagan in any high pressure situation is poor management.  Having so many bullpen arms unavailable for the game shows , in part, poor management.  Those strikeouts were kind if being covered up by the team winning games.  I believe we have over 90 strikeouts over the past 6 or 7 games.  Awful.  If Sands us so bad that you can't use him all week then get rid of him.  Hopefully they win Wednesday.  Go Twins.

[jkcarew]

The bats kind of imploded as well. Very few balls put in play…and the only reason they had the big lead is that early in the game, literally everything they did put in play has a hit, XBH, or HR.

Horrible loss in that it was potentially a huge momentum-breaker. Hope not.

[Chthulu]

17 hours ago, Danchat said:

Seems like Sands is being treated like the mop-up guy, and doesn't have the trust to be used in any other scenario. It's unfortunate, but it's common for teams to carry a guy like this. Moran-Pagan-Ortega have not been overused and should have been able to handle this.

Ortega had thrown 36 or so pitches 2 days ago. At the very least Sands should have been used there. The Twins are effectively creating a dead roster spot with their lack of usage of Sands. It's bad roster management. 

[JD-TWINS]

21 hours ago, curt1965 said:

Monday morning QB comment:

I’ve questioned Rocco’s use of the bullpen all year. It’s nice to do everything possible to win games: but that’s a double edged sword. Sooner or later, the entire bullpen is gassed, and you need your last guy to pitch a significant portion of the game. OK- you are going to lose a game or two in that scenario. But what happens when you’ve played 120 games and your entire pen is spent?

Hope I’m wrong……..

First, Moran let everyone down nibbling and walking 2 guys with a 4 run lead! Then a double.

To your point, with a 4 run lead, why not give the ball to Cole Sands & tell him he needs to get 6 outs?

Again, Moran put everyone in a bad light but Sands had tons of rest & 4 runs is a considerable lead…….so, if not then, when do you use him?