Tigers 8, Twins 4 : Twins Lick Their Wounds After a Tiger Attack

[VivaBomboRivera!]

51 minutes ago, RickOShea said:

Baseball has a way,  for the best (divisionally or league-wise) finishing at the top, most of the time. That's the intrigue of a 162 game schedule.  Streaks, winning ones or losing ones, skew our perceptions and expectations.  After the last Milwaukee game, we were world beaters in some people's minds.  After this Detroit loss, we're scum.  The point is, IMO, that most seasons are like a roller coaster, in performance and emotions.  We need to let this play out a bit more.

However, part of the attraction of baseball, is it provides an opportunity for us to ride this roller coaster and experience all of its ups, downs, twists and turns.  So, if you're passionate about this game or a specific team, you're going to look at small sections of a season and critique, accordingly.  That's the beauty of it.  You can be right one day and wrong the next in your assessments.  Let's tolerate the assessments.  Let them be a reflection of one's passion for the game.

D****d philosophers...

 

;-)

[rwilfong86]

7 hours ago, VivaBomboRivera! said:

Will the real version of the 2023 Minnesota Twins please stand up?

Last night is probably that team 

[Eris]

I thought at one point in the past the Twins had a rule about not letting any pitcher continue after throwing more than 35 pitches in one inning. Reasons for this would include that needing that many pitches to get through an inning is from a high stress inning and also indicates the pitcher is not being very effective. 

[wabene]

19 minutes ago, Eris said:

I thought at one point in the past the Twins had a rule about not letting any pitcher continue after throwing more than 35 pitches in one inning. Reasons for this would include that needing that many pitches to get through an inning is from a high stress inning and also indicates the pitcher is not being very effective. 

I'm thinking something along those lines. I'm guessing it is largely due to injury risk. 

[Eris]

 It is just a joy to watch Lewis play. Trying to remember a Twins player who was that athletic. Maybe Buxton when he was allowed to roam CF. 

[MABB1959]

6 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Please stop following me around, nitpicking posts you don’t like, and accusing me of having agendas or narratives. Please. 

There are a few posters that live to nitpick and throw out all kinds of stats.  I posted about my all-time favorite pitcher who said he had a bad year last year and a bunch of stats from then and could or would not look at this year. For some that is what they like to post.  When you post you have to take that flack.  

[MABB1959]

22 minutes ago, Eris said:

 It is just a joy to watch Lewis play. Trying to remember a Twins player who was that athletic. Maybe Buxton when he was allowed to roam CF. 

Jose Berrios!  I could be wrong but I don't think he has spent a day on the IL.  He works hard in the off-season to stay in shape and it shows.  Maybe he should hold off-season camps.  There are most likely many Twins who could take advantage of it.

[CRF]

I don't necessarily have a problem with Rocco taking Gray out last night. Gray clearly didn't have it and was fighting his command all game. I maybe would have let him go out for the next inning and see what happens, then pull him if he's still struggling. Rocco never seems to ever do that. My big problem with last nights game was Lopez. I'd venture to say that he's much worse than Pagan at this point. Anyone else notice how he ran straight to the dugout and down the tunnel, after catching that pop up? Like a bat outta hell! I thought that was very strange. 

[the_brute_squad]

11 more K's today. Over a third of their outs without have the opposing teams defense making any effort. 

This team needs a new mgr and in the off-season seriously consider new upper management. 

[wabene]

I would've sent Gray out for the 5th, 5 innings is a big ask from the pen. Now if they had a long man available, like the Headrick we saw earlier, then by all means get Gray out of there. 

[jmlease1]

23 minutes ago, the_brute_squad said:

11 more K's today. Over a third of their outs without have the opposing teams defense making any effort. 

This team needs a new mgr and in the off-season seriously consider new upper management. 

I'm really confused why you think changing the manager will significantly cut down on the hitter's strikeouts. A new manager isn't swinging the bat.

Twins pitching was bad last night, and it sucked. They let a meh Tigers squad feel hope instead of stomping on their faces. Gray did not have it and was fighting his command. I get there are those who thought he should have gotten a chance to get it back in the 5th, but he did nothing in the 4th to show he should. 3 walks in an inning is pretty bad, and it's not like he was getting squeezed by the ump. Moran couldn't hold it down, and Lopez let them tack on extras in the 9th which technically didn't change the outcome but sure felt like they put it out of reach. Just not a good night for the pitching staff outside of Pagan (man, that feels weird to type).

Offense was a bit toothless last night outside of the 2nd, but Boyd did a good job hitting the zone.

Got to re-set for Friday and put this one behind them.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

7 hours ago, Squirrel said:

You stated:

What does this mean, he has personal differences? Explain it then so I’m not misinterpreting. It sounds like you are saying he is pulling Gray over personal differences so I’m questioning what that means? I’m sorry you think I’m nitpicking, but I just find it odd, so help me out, please, and explain what you mean?

I don’t know what’s going on, but obviously Sonny Gray is not a big Rocco fan lol. So I am going to assume there is a reason for that, but—maybe not. The off field and interpersonal stuff is a big part of being a fan for me. 

Maybe Sonny Gray always feels this way about his manager on all his teams? Good question and I don’t know. So there you have challenged me in a good way to go back and maybe look at old quotes and try to get more information. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

1 hour ago, MABB1959 said:

Jose Berrios!  I could be wrong but I don't think he has spent a day on the IL.  He works hard in the off-season to stay in shape and it shows.  Maybe he should hold off-season camps.  There are most likely many Twins who could take advantage of it.

Don’t look now, right?

[Squirrel]

26 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I don’t know what’s going on, but obviously Sonny Gray is not a big Rocco fan lol. So I am going to assume there is a reason for that, but—maybe not. The off field and interpersonal stuff is a big part of being a fan for me. 

Maybe Sonny Gray always feels this way about his manager on all his teams? Good question and I don’t know. So there you have challenged me in a good way to go back and maybe look at old quotes and try to get more information. 

I guess I don’t see it. I get wanting to know the inter-personal stuff, because it is part of the equation. But it’s also not something that I will assume because we simply don’t know, so assumptions work against objectivity here. Assuming facts not in evidence is the phrase for me to use here. We don’t know what’s behind closed doors. Sonny was mad about being pulled after the 4th inning and wanted to keep pitching and let his manager know. I respect that. Maki and Baldelli made a decision and stuck to it. I respect that, too. Both went on to say, post-game, how they accepted what the other did. I respect that, too, and actually admire how they both addressed the situation. Maybe there is more to the story, maybe there is not. Many here want to make assumptions that support a bias they already have. It’s human, but it’s also something that will and should get called out for further explanation. Again, some of this speculation turns to fact for some individuals and again, I’ll use the phrase, assuming facts not in evidence, What I can’t respect in all of this is how the FO didn’t address the BP, and stated they wouldn’t be, in the off season and here we are. All of this becomes much less a thing if the BP does its job, but we don’t have enough pitchers who can do that.

[Riverbrian]

Think about any work environment that you have ever worked in. 

26 different people with 26 different personalities produce multiple responses.   

Not everybody is going to like everyone. Sometimes people get into a disagreement and have a beer together after buying girl scout cookies from the other person's daughter a day later. Sometimes people say nothing and quietly seethe until they find something else to be pissed off about and and there are degrees of everything in between.    

Not everybody is going to be happy all the time. Not everyone is going to be miserable all the time. 

We don't have to escalate disagreements that escape into public view into more than they are and there is no reason to assume that either party is unreasonable unless you know either party is unreasonable.  

These are human beings not robots. Rocco has a job to do and so does Sonny. 

 

 

[John Belinski]

I think Gray should have been allowed to pitch another inning. If he has a bad start in the 5th inning then pull him.  The Twins bullpen is not very good so give Gray a chance to win a game with a 3 run lead. Just when I was thinking Rocco was letting his starting pitchers pitch more than 4 or 5 innings he pulls Gray and Twins lose game. I keep wondering what our record would be with a manager that had a feel for the game.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, wabene said:

I would've sent Gray out for the 5th, 5 innings is a big ask from the pen. Now if they had a long man available, like the Headrick we saw earlier, then by all means get Gray out of there. 

Using Winder Tuesday comes back to bite them. I don't remember the circumstances Tuesday and if it was "necessary," but the challenge of having a true long man is that if your rotation is good, and mostly healthy, there's very few chances to use him, and you always run the risk of picking the wrong time to "just get him work," and you end up with no long man when he's needed. This is assuming Winder is supposed to be the long man.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

14 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I guess I don’t see it. I get wanting to know the inter-personal stuff, because it is part of the equation. But it’s also not something that I will assume because we simply don’t know, so assumptions work against objectivity here. Assuming facts not in evidence is the phrase for me to use here. We don’t know what’s behind closed doors. Sonny was mad about being pulled after the 4th inning and wanted to keep pitching and let his manager know. I respect that. Maki and Baldelli made a decision and stuck to it. I respect that, too. Both went on to say, post-game, how they accepted what the other did. I respect that, too, and actually admire how they both addressed the situation. Maybe there is more to the story, maybe there is not. Many here want to make assumptions that support a bias they already have. It’s human, but it’s also something that will and should get called out for further explanation. Again, some of this speculation turns to fact for some individuals and again, I’ll use the phrase, assuming facts not in evidence, What I can’t respect in all of this is how the FO didn’t address the BP, and stated they wouldn’t be, in the off season and here we are. All of this becomes much less a thing if the BP does its job, but we don’t have enough pitchers who can do that.

I started off by saying I had no opinion on whether Gray should have been pulled last night. That is as non-assuming as you can possibly get. No need to call anyone out for saying they have no opinion. 

If you want to argue without evidence that the bullpen was not addressed this past offseason, fine. I am not going to call it out every time I see it somewhere in a thread.

These summer months are the time to get these extra innings out of Gray. He is a pro and should be given a motivation to pitch deep and work out of his own jams when necessary.

[wabene]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Using Winder Tuesday comes back to bite them. I don't remember the circumstances Tuesday and if it was "necessary," but the challenge of having a true long man is that if your rotation is good, and mostly healthy, there's very few chances to use him, and you always run the risk of picking the wrong time to "just get him work," and you end up with no long man when he's needed. This is assuming Winder is supposed to be the long man.

Yes agreed the long man is only going to work out things fall right for you. They didn't yesterday and we were left with the choice of sending out Gray or counting on the pen for more than half the game. That is a rough position to be in and likely wouldn't have worked out either way. 

[jorgenswest]

1 hour ago, wabene said:

I would've sent Gray out for the 5th, 5 innings is a big ask from the pen. Now if they had a long man available, like the Headrick we saw earlier, then by all means get Gray out of there. 

Winder is the current long man. The problem with a long man like Winder is once they go long they aren’t available for a few days. I guess they could have sent him down and flipped him with Headrick. 

Headrick is the best option as the next starter ready right now. It is good to keep him stretched out as the “6th starter” in AAA. I wouldn’t be surprised if he fills the Twins TBA starter slot Saturday. That start could also be given to Winder.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, wabene said:

Yes agreed the long man is only going to work out things fall right for you. They didn't yesterday and we were left with the choice of sending out Gray or counting on the pen for more than half the game. That is a rough position to be in and likely wouldn't have worked out either way. 

Short starts are absolutely killer. Especially when it's supposed to be one of your top starters, and he just simply doesn't have it that day, and never finds it over 4 innings.

[David Maro]

Gray has to pitch better,can't go 3-2 on almost every hitter you face. Tiger hitters layed off his pitches out of the zone,so he needed to give them a pitch to hit. Lewis needs to stop trying to be Correa. His throws don't need to be 90+ when 80 will do. Why was the over throw a hit not a error. The runner was feet from the bag when the ball went over Salono's head. If anyone needed to be pinch hit for it was Buxton,can't swing at pitches a foot off the plate. This team are strike out artists and continue to have an inning here and there. When you have a pitcher on the ropes you need to finish the job. But when you have a bunch of players trying to hit homeruns only this is what you get. Correa tried to screw himself into the ground the at bat before striking out. All of this is on the bad manager in the dugout.

[chinmusic]

2 hours ago, CRF said:

Anyone else notice how he ran straight to the dugout and down the tunnel, after catching that pop up? Like a bat outta hell! I thought that was very strange. 

Yeah, it was strange. His self confidence may be non existent at this point. Pity. He was supposed to be such an integral piece. He ain't no Sonny Gray (bulldog quotient). That said, you never know, maybe he'll get it together.

[DJL44]

2 hours ago, wabene said:

Now if they had a long man available, like the Headrick we saw earlier, then by all means get Gray out of there. 

Headrick has been pretty good in AAA. I think they would rather have him as the next man up for the rotation than have him helping in the bullpen.

[wabene]

11 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

Winder is the current long man. The problem with a long man like Winder is once they go long they aren’t available for a few days. I guess they could have sent him down and flipped him with Headrick. 

Headrick is the best option as the next starter ready right now. It is good to keep him stretched out as the “6th starter” in AAA. I wouldn’t be surprised if he fills the Twins TBA starter slot Saturday. That start could also be given to Winder.

I agree I would keep Headrick stretched out and resist the temptation to call him up as the long man. He is looking like the best option down in St Paul. 

[wabene]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

Headrick has been pretty good in AAA. I think they would rather have him as the next man up for the rotation than have him helping in the bullpen.

Yes I agree I was just saying it would've been great if that option had been available. It's definitely a surprise but Headrick is looking the best in St Paul right now. SWR, not so much. 

[Craig Arko]

Hmmm, eaten by bears in the game thread and by tigers here. Clearly, we require lions.

Oh, myyyyyy.

[Squirrel]

20 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I started off by saying I had no opinion on whether Gray should have been pulled last night. That is as non-assuming as you can possibly get. No need to call anyone out for saying they have no opinion. 

If you want to argue without evidence that the bullpen was not addressed this past offseason, fine. I am not going to call it out every time I see it somewhere in a thread.

These summer months are the time to get these extra innings out of Gray. He is a pro and should be given a motivation to pitch deep and work out of his own jams when necessary.

It wasn’t about whether or not he should be pulled. It was the assumption that there were personal differences going on that I was calling out. We don’t know that and is assuming facts not in evidence. It might be true, it might not but I find it a difficult assumption to reason with

[wavedog]

Gray had actually gotten the first 3 hitters in the order out 1-2-3 in the 1st and 3rd innings.  He had problems with hitters 4-8 in the order in innings 2 and 4.   That is why I was thinking to run him out for another inning to ease the load a little bit on the bullpen.  Not saying he would do the same in the 5th but those were not the hitters he was struggling with.    I did not think about the 35 pitch inning in the 4th impacting that decision but Gray is a veteran and given all the factors I probably would still have run him out for the 5th at 79 pitches.   

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I don’t know what’s going on, but obviously Sonny Gray is not a big Rocco fan lol. So I am going to assume there is a reason for that, but—maybe not. The off field and interpersonal stuff is a big part of being a fan for me. 

Maybe Sonny Gray always feels this way about his manager on all his teams? Good question and I don’t know. So there you have challenged me in a good way to go back and maybe look at old quotes and try to get more information. 

I don't think it's obvious at all. Gray is feisty, a competitor, and never wants to come out of a game, especially if he's been struggling a bit. Whether he has a personal issue with Rocco or Maki or the front office or whomever is total guesswork right now, and might always be.

he's not taking personal shots at anyone, we're not seeing blind quotes or any of the old "sources behind the scenes say" stuff to suggest that there's a real conflict or a problem there. I think Gray is just a little different cat than some: he's direct, pretty honest, and very very competitive. but he also seems like a good teammate who doesn't go after guys in the press (whether it's management or players) just because he's mad.