Front Page: Eddie Rosario Continued to Trend Downward in 2019

[mikelink45]

 

Man... Twins fans want the team to trade Rosario for some quality pitching (prospects or current)... and then everything yo read, from Twins fans, online is how terrible he is... Teams are going to read all this from Twins fans and really want to trade for him now!!

 

Also, I think we need to stop bashing 32 and 109.. and an .800 OPS. I've seen way too many Twins teams where we dreamed of having a guy or two with an .800 OPS. Obviously it needs to be taken with context but still. I'll take that any year... 

Thank you for a sensible response.  I have never seen a group so anxious to trade a good player spend so much ink telling everyone how terrible he is.

 

The HR and RBIs do matter.  As a matter of fact with the HRs of Cruz and Kepler and Polanco it is amazing he found that many he could drive in.

 

https://twinsdaily.com/blogs/entry/11683-%7B%3F%7D/

 

 

 

[mikelink45]

 

I agree with a lot of what Doc Bauer says, but I truly believe Larnach or Kiriloff will be ready sometime in 2020.  They won't break with the club, but to see one of them up in May or June wouldn't surprise me at all.  Eddie has warts and we've all become very familiar with them.  But 32 HR's and 109 RBI's just don't fall out of trees every day.  Not many teams have a Larnach or Kiriloff knocking on the door.  I still think a package of Eddie and Nick Gordon to a team like Arizona could get us Robbie Ray.  If the Twins were to trade Eddie for a pitcher like Ray and then sign a veteran OF'er like Garcia or Dickerson (I prefer Garcia, he's a RH bat) then they can afford to be patient with Larnach/Kiriloff.  But one of them is going to make it up in 2020 and whoever it is will be a tougher out than Eddie.

Sure Arizona can pair him with Escobar in the middle of their lineup.

 

Still if we get Robbie Ray I am happy. 

[mikelink45]

 

opposing GMs are influenced in their evaluation of Rosario by chatter on TD forums?

In this age of communications a site like TD probably has more influence than any fan related communications ever have.   When we get a break down like this it is an easy cut and paste.  So maybe we underestimate the reach of TD.

[dex8425]

 

Poor fielding free swinging outfielders can be had pretty easily on the Free Agent market or via trade. So we got 1 in Eddie. If anyone has been watching the World Series you'll notice that there isn't anyone on either lineup that is like Eddie. 

 Idk, Altuve swings at a lot of pitches outside the zone. Of course, he also has won an MVP and batting champs, OPS'ed over .900 this year, and plays second base, not a corner outfield spot.  But his approach can be frustrating at times. 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Rosario was 54th in OPS and 65th in wRC+. He is not all that hard to replace. Cave had an 805 OPS this year and 795 career OPS. I will take Cave and invest the $8M/yr difference in pitching.

 

Give Cave an everyday job and he will get slaughtered. Plus, if you think Rosario's defense was bad, Cave is worse than that. 

 

Rosario is also a middle of the order bat, while Cave is most definitely not. 

 

I already said I'd be fine with moving on from Rosario if its to go after some pitching talent. However, if you get rid of him and sign the type of guy you would likely get with Rosario's 8 mill, it's not worth it. Those types of starters grade out as a much worse version of Kyle Gibson at best. 

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Give Cave an everyday job and he will get slaughtered. Plus, if you think Rosario's defense was bad, Cave is worse than that. 

 

Rosario is also a middle of the order bat, while Cave is most definitely not. 

 

I already said I'd be fine with moving on from Rosario if its to go after some pitching talent. However, if you get rid of him and sign the type of guy you would likely get with Rosario's 8 mill, it's not worth it. Those types of starters grade out as a much worse version of Kyle Gibson at best. 

 

The 8 million is added to whatever else they can spend.......I'm not sure how that's debatable even. It frees up 8 million more dollars to spend. And probably 10 million next year.

[Riverbrian]

 

In this age of communications a site like TD probably has more influence than any fan related communications ever have.   When we get a break down like this it is an easy cut and paste.  So maybe we underestimate the reach of TD.

 

(True Story)

 

Back in May of  2016... Brian Dozier was looking absolutely horrible (along with the entire team) but Dozier was capable of so much more. His extended slump had brought his batting average below .200 and I couldn't tolerate it anymore so the only thing I posted on Twinsdaily was something like: "BRIAN DOZIER -- FIX HIM!!!"  

 

The next day, Terry Ryan talks to the press and he is quoted saying... "We've got to FIX him". 

 

Dozier was benched the next day... for like a day and then he went on a home run tear... Hit like 80 home runs from June to September. 

 

Your Welcome everyone.

 

I did that.    

 

(True Story)

[scottz]

He's the perfect guy for arbitration. Player and team throw out a number and argue about it in the nicest way possible. Pay him whatever is decided. I'm no arbitration dollars expert, but whatever jump he gets from the $4 million he had this year is something the team can swallow without impacting their quest for pitching. Keep playing him until one of the kids does to Rosario what Arraez did to Schoop. If nobody steps up, play the same game going into 2021.

 

Also, Cave is a perfectly fine 4th outfielder. He is not Rosario's equivalent, in my opinion.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

The 8 million is added to whatever else they can spend.......I'm not sure how that's debatable even. It frees up 8 million more dollars to spend. And probably 10 million next year.

 

It's more my distrust of the organization and the cheap way in which they have operated forever. 

 

I don't trust that they would even use the savings to add talent. They would probably say they needed it to give Ordorizzi his raise. 

 

My point is, the Twins have more than enough money hanging around where they don't have to start a Jake Cave or an unproven prospect in left field when they are in contention. Keep Rosario unless he is part of a bigger package for some studly pitching. 

 

If the Twins move him for minor league players with the situation this team is in right now, it will just reinforce my belief that they are cheap and miserly. 

[Boom Boom]

They could trade Rosario for pitching, but probably not impact pitching. And I don't care about the cost savings from moving him because the Twins can spend all the money they want.

[old nurse]

 

opposing GMs are influenced in their evaluation of Rosario by chatter on TD forums?

When the fans are knowledgeable it is free scouting.  Are you saying something bad about the knowledge of the TD fanbase

 

[insagt1]

too many stats. Way too many. Is this baseball or a doctors clinic? OK--old school. I don't need exit velocity, launch angle, E=MCsquared and eLMNOP+ or whatever to enjoy watching the game. Clearly others absolutely are in love with all this new stuff. To each his own. I won;t judge.

 

The Rosario thing is a rerun of the Tony Batista flap in the Expos final year. Batista led the team in HR's and RBI and got murdered for it because of where he batted in the lineup. The argument was he failed more than nearly everyone. 'anyone could have driven in those runs if they had batted cleanup' it was trumpeted.

Problem with that is 'could have'. Who knows whether they 'could have' taken advantage of the opportunities when put in that situation? We'll never know. Once you remove the 'human factor' from the game and rely solely on all those statistics, you strip the game of its enjoyment and intrigue.

 

Rosario has always been a loose canon. Is he still valuable to the Twins? Comparing his value to Jake Cave is foolish, Cave just isn't very good. What he is, is cheap, agreed. But is cheap going to help the Twins get additional help, to compensate for Cave's poor production and 'd'? Guess we'd have to see. Cave tore up the IL this season, but did not carry that forward to the Twins. He is very replaceable.

 

Eddie can be very aggravating. In much the same way as Puig can be. Twins have to determine how much his contribution to the team outweighs the aggravation. Many players have more value to their present teams than they do in trade value. Rosario may be one of those.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

In this age of communications a site like TD probably has more influence than any fan related communications ever have.   When we get a break down like this it is an easy cut and paste.  So maybe we underestimate the reach of TD.

 

Sites like TD have served to aggregate information for fans like none other before... but let's not pretend that the front offices around the league have more of it. I'd be willing to bet that the #30 FO in the league in terms of analytics has far more data at their disposal than we do. 

 

And given how surprised we are by a lot of FO actions around the league, I'd say we are still lagging behind them. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

too many stats. Way too many. Is this baseball or a doctors clinic? OK--old school. I don't need exit velocity, launch angle, E=MCsquared and eLMNOP+ or whatever to enjoy watching the game. Clearly others absolutely are in love with all this new stuff. To each his own. I won;t judge.

 

The Rosario thing is a rerun of the Tony Batista flap in the Expos final year. Batista led the team in HR's and RBI and got murdered for it because of where he batted in the lineup. The argument was he failed more than nearly everyone. 'anyone could have driven in those runs if they had batted cleanup' it was trumpeted.

Problem with that is 'could have'. Who knows whether they 'could have' taken advantage of the opportunities when put in that situation? We'll never know. Once you remove the 'human factor' from the game and rely solely on all those statistics, you strip the game of its enjoyment and intrigue.

 

Rosario has always been a loose canon. Is he still valuable to the Twins? Comparing his value to Jake Cave is foolish, Cave just isn't very good. What he is, is cheap, agreed. But is cheap going to help the Twins get additional help, to compensate for Cave's poor production and 'd'? Guess we'd have to see. Cave tore up the IL this season, but did not carry that forward to the Twins. He is very replaceable.

 

Eddie can be very aggravating. In much the same way as Puig can be. Twins have to determine how much his contribution to the team outweighs the aggravation. Many players have more value to their present teams than they do in trade value. Rosario may be one of those.

 

Cave in 2 albeit limited seasons has an MLB OPS of .801. He plays mostly CF, and while I think we all agree his CF defense is a bit subpar, I think you're being a bit harsh on him, since his corner defense should be average to above.

 

The guy will be entering his 27 age season and has shown he can hit MLB pitching well above the average CF and above the average MLBer as well... He is a very good 4th OF who can provide an adequate replacement for short stints when someone goes on the DL.. If he keeps that up, he's going to be here for a an arb season or two as well, as he should be. If he improves, we have a nice situation on our hands.

 

That said, starting him for 3 months until one of our minor leaguers is ready is a bit risky. I'm not personally sure that's a good idea. I think the article implying Rosario is down trending is well... not a reasonable picture at all to put it nicely. I'm not sure Cave could fill in for Rosie, nor am I sure that we should be counting on Rooker, AK, Weil, or Raley to be ready at some point this summer. That's asking for trouble.

 

Rosie is a known commodity. Flawed, yes. But he can also perform at an MVP level for prolonged stints. I don't think the value he'd return in pitching (which I suspect is little) would be worth the risk of opening up that spot. 

 

Edit: side note, but Rosario was one of the few guys hitting the ball in the playoffs. SSS I know, but I don't think it's smart to dump the guy who showed up against NY. 

[Steve Lein]

Way too much dogging on Rosario already this offseason, in my opinion. This was a historic offense, especially considering it was the Twins.

 

As basically the same hitter in 2018 and 2017, he was top 3 on the team in OPS. 

 

You can try to quantify a decline in defense with these numbers, but I don't see that on the field. Can frustrate you sometimes, but he's not losing games because of it, far from it in fact.

 

Eddie is also a leader in that clubhouse, this was the #BombaSquadLeader we're talking about, and a lot of their heart and soul.

 

If the general consensus is you don't think he'll bring much back in a trade, why would you ever even consider trading him?

[BrianTrottier]

 

When the fans are knowledgeable it is free scouting.  Are you saying something bad about the knowledge of the TD fanbase

 

Aside from the fact that nobody here is a scout?

[prouster]

My first instinct is always to trust the untrained opinions of amateurs when making multi-million dollar decisions.

Edited November 1, 2019 by prouster

[old nurse]

 

Aside from the fact that nobody here is a scout?

The definition of a scout is one who observes to evaluate and obtain information. Which part of that are the faithful here incapable of doing?

[Mike Sixel]

His offense has literally gotten worse each of the last two years.....He was just above MLB average this year, an average that includes pitchers and catchers......

 

That's just on offense.

 

BTW, I don't see anyone saying he's bad.....just that he's not all that great. You keep him unless keeping him impedes your ability to fix pitching....but once they have a rookie OFer ready, there isn't much reason to keep Eddie Rosario at the price he'll be getting paid the next two years.

[bird]

 

Aside from the fact that nobody here is a scout?

 

 

I was a scout. My first merit badge was Bird Study.

[prouster]

 

The definition of a scout is one who observes to evaluate and obtain information. Which part of that are the faithful here incapable of doing?

 

I have cooked many meals in my life.

 

I am not a chef.

[ashbury]

The definition of a scout is one who observes to evaluate and obtain information.

That definition omits an important aspect, in the context meant when the term was invoked: being paid for doing this.

[mikelink45]

 

Sites like TD have served to aggregate information for fans like none other before... but let's not pretend that the front offices around the league have more of it. I'd be willing to bet that the #30 FO in the league in terms of analytics has far more data at their disposal than we do. 

 

And given how surprised we are by a lot of FO actions around the league, I'd say we are still lagging behind them. 

If it were not for the Orioles I might think you were right.

[Kelly Vance]

"Don't be fooled by home runs and rbis?"

 

Fooled?  Are you sh**ing me?   That is how we have evaluated contributions by players since 1889. I mean, those are two of the three prongs to winning a triple crown. 

 

Poor Eddie.  He hits 32 and drives in 100 plus runs and he gets criticized.

 

I don't get it.  Did he vote for Trump or something? 

 

 

[old nurse]

 

That definition omits an important aspect, in the context meant when the term was invoked: being paid for doing this.

So if you are not paid you do not understand baseball well enough to make an intelligent insight on a player

[old nurse]

 

I have cooked many meals in my life.

 

I am not a chef.

As above. Fans are stupid. Got it.

[prouster]

As above. Fans are stupid. Got it.

Not sure how “not a professional” equates to “stupid.” I’m also not sure why a team would seek information on an internet message board when they pay people to gather that information firsthand.

 

This is a weird argument.

[Squirrel]

Stop the bickering and get back on topic.

[AZTwin]

I agree.. my point is that all Twins fans talk about is trading Rosario for pitching and how bad he is... so fans will be disappointed if the Twins trade him and don't get anything for him, but we're not helping by talking about how bad he is... it's a circle...

Exactly. Same thing happened with Dozier. I was pretty much screaming because people wanting to give him up for simply De Leon was crazy. People need to show value to some of the players. A lot of people here are there own worst enemies

[Major League Ready]

 

Way too much dogging on Rosario already this offseason, in my opinion. This was a historic offense, especially considering it was the Twins.

 

As basically the same hitter in 2018 and 2017, he was top 3 on the team in OPS. 

 

You can try to quantify a decline in defense with these numbers, but I don't see that on the field. Can frustrate you sometimes, but he's not losing games because of it, far from it in fact.

 

Eddie is also a leader in that clubhouse, this was the #BombaSquadLeader we're talking about, and a lot of their heart and soul.

 

If the general consensus is you don't think he'll bring much back in a trade, why would you ever even consider trading him?

 

He was really good the 1st half of 2018. From memory, I think he put up 3.5 WAR in the first half. He was literally the worst hitter among the starters the 2nd half and was below replacement value. The first half of 2019 he put up a very respectable 1.4 WAR and was 3rd overall in OPS / wRC+ fpr the 1st half. He was 9th in OPS / wRC+ for the 2nd half and had 0 WAR. For the last season and a half he has put up 1.2 WAR.

 

So, to answer your question, you trade him to make room for Kirilloff or Larnach whenever that malkes sense. If you happen to get a good return this offseason ... roll with Cave or a platoon with Cave/Gonzalez until one of the prospects is ready. Then, use the incremental $20M/yr over the next couple of years on assets that will contribute more than 1.2 WAR. Hopefully, high end pitching but it would not hurt to invest in another catcher and a 1B.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Major League Ready