Gimenez vs Garver

[DocBauer]

Personally, IMHO, part of the overall success and quality play of our beloved Twins this season has been the addition of Castro and Giminez at catcher.

 

Of course, it goes way beyond just these two additions. The improved pitching results are still pitchers throwing better. Neither Castro nor Giminez have anything to do with vastly improved defense, except for their positions directly. Credit simply must be given to the coaching staff, including Molitor, better use of metrics (FINALLY), and the talent and development of the young players themselves.

 

But unless you are living or viewing in a vacuum, there is no doubt the Twins are enjoying the best overall catching, defensively-game calling-etc, that they have enjoyed in years! And Giminez is part of that, even as the 2nd catcher. In a pinch, he can play both infield and both OF corners, (though I believe he's only appeared at 1B this far), and has even mopped up a couple bad games from the mound.

 

But with all due respect to contributions made, and a quality guy from all reports, I believe he's also the most vulnerable and easily replaced position player on the roster.

 

By all reports, Garver is a quality receiver with a big arm who works hard on his defense. In 22 games for 2016 he hit .329 with a .815 OPS in AAA. So far, 23 games in 2017, he has a .270 AVG and a .886 OPS.

 

For a mostly young and still rebuilding club...even though the "rebuild" may be reaching an apex...isnt it about time to bring Garver up? He can receive well, throw well, hit better (much better-potentially at least), than Giminez, with some pop and can even play some 1B.

 

When and how and why do you make the move? Is it deserved at this point? Do you mess with a good thing going? Are we waiting for another team to have an injury to make Giminez more valuable as a trade option?

 

Eager to hear your opinions and thoughts.

[SF Twins Fan]

Definitely a good debate but I don't know how you go about making the change. Would he be worth anything in a trade? Do you DFA him? I'd probably wait until we're closer to the deadline to make a change and if Garver is still doing well you definitely want to get him some experience in the MLB this season.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Regarding Garver, I wonder how much emphasis the new front office is placing on his receiving skills, particularly framing. I'd love to see an interview with Mitch on the subject, whether the new front office has changed his focus and in what way.

[DocBauer]

Regarding Garver, I wonder how much emphasis the new front office is placing on his receiving skills, particularly framing. I'd love to see an interview with Mitch on the subject, whether the new front office has changed his focus and in what way.

There's a lot of backroom conversations I'd love to be privy To! That would be one of them.

[Brandon Warne]

I get the idea, but Gimenez isn't going anywhere. They love him. 

[jorgenswest]

As long as the Twins are competitive, I would stick with the veteran catchers. There is no way to measure how much Gimenez helped Mejia get through 5 innings today but I don't think Suzuki would have managed it.

[drjim]

I don't really see the rush either. He's an injury away, and barring that, he should get a September look.

[Thrylos]

Here is the other thing:

Team ERA by Catcher: Castro: 3.38 (1118 PA), Gimenez: 6.20 (479 PA)

(that was on the 24th.)

 

Pretty significant. 

And I bet Berrios felt it in his last start as well...

 

Great clubhouse guy and all, but he's got to go.  The Twins are competing and the country club mentality needs to go...

 

 

#FreeMitchGarver

[yarnivek1972]

Gimenez is Falvey's guy. No way is he going anywhere. If Molitor would actually get him his at bats against LHP, as he should, his numbers would look better. He's actually a serviceable hitter vs LHP.

[Thrylos]

 

Gimenez is Falvey's guy. No way is he going anywhere. If Molitor would actually get him his at bats against LHP, as he should, his numbers would look better. He's actually a serviceable hitter vs LHP.

 

2017 splits vs LHPs:

Gimenez: .217/.333/.304  (MLB)
Garver: .368/.429/.632 (AAA)

 

Just sayin'

[stringer bell]

Calling up Garver to be the backup really doesn't work for me. Yes, if Castro went on the DL, Mitch should play and probably play the majority of games behind the plate. Gimenez is pretty good against left handers, but the Twins are in a rut where they're seeing almost all right handers.

[jorgenswest]

I hope that catcher ERA is not anywhere among the data provided to Molitor. The catcher position was the only significant off season roster move of the new leadership. I can't argue against their decision here without also arguing that we need new leadership.

[jimbo92107]

 

Here is the other thing:

Team ERA by Catcher: Castro: 3.38 (1118 PA), Gimenez: 6.20 (479 PA)

(that was on the 24th.)

 

Pretty significant. 

And I bet Berrios felt it in his last start as well...

 

Great clubhouse guy and all, but he's got to go.  The Twins are competing and the country club mentality needs to go...

 

 

#FreeMitchGarver

Hasn't GiMENez been catching the #4 and 5 starters? I'm pretty sure Castro has been handling Santana and Berrios, which would tend to skew those ERA numbers juuuust a bit.  

[drivlikejehu]

 

I get the idea, but Gimenez isn't going anywhere. They love him. 

 

So is he a lock for the roster until he retires? I guess I'm not sure what the upshot is here . . . maybe that they should trade Garver?

[jimbo92107]

Despite a high ERA in his games, GiMENez appears to do a good job managing the struggles of 3, 4, and 5 guys in the rotation. Still, I frankly don't see much harm in bringing up Garver. His D sounds good, and his bat is definitely better than the current #2 catcher's. Assuming the D is approximately equal, Garver's better bat should win the job. 

[mlhouse]

A team like the Twins using a 34 year old player while their 26 year old prospect sits in the minors is idiotic.  

 

The other aspect of this is that I believe pitch framing is a very overrated measure because the statistical measure is not completely specified and there are just too many variables to control.

 

Look at the Twins catchers.  

 

Castro was considered one of the better pitch framers in the league.  But, just as I predicted, he went from having a positive impact to a negative one. Last season he saved 12.8 runs by creating a net 0.92 strikes per game.  

 

In 2016 Giminez, likewise, was a positive contributor by saving 1.2 runs overall in his limited innings.  Both catchers had positive runs created in 2014 and 2015.

 

Now, move them to the Twins staff.  Now suddenly their pitch framing is costing more than 1 strike a game for BOTH catchers and they have COST the Twins 2.4 and 4.4 runs already because of pitch framing.  In fact, even though they had positive impacts elsewhere, teh Twins have not had a catcher with positive runs created by pitch framing Joe Mauer/Rene Rivera in 2011.  

 

Do you think both of the catchers have suddenly become worse?  I don't.  But then I think pitch framing is very overrated.

 

http://www.statcorner.com/CatcherReport.php

[Old Twins Cap]

I think smart FO types will argue that they want Garver hitting every day, not sitting on the bench.

 

He would not fully develop as a backup for the Twins in '17.

 

That said, Gimenez does not look good at the plate and once the Twins start losing games and the offense sputters, the gravitational pull toward Garver will become unbearable.

 

Hopefully, a contending team will lose their backup catcher, or their main, and Gimenez will acquire some trade value, and bring back a single A middle infielder at that point.

[mlhouse]

 

I think smart FO types will argue that they want Garver hitting every day, not sitting on the bench.

 

He would not fully develop as a backup for the Twins in '17.

 

That said, Gimenez does not look good at the plate and once the Twins start losing games and the offense sputters, the gravitational pull toward Garver will become unbearable.

 

Hopefully, a contending team will lose their backup catcher, or their main, and Gimenez will acquire some trade value, and bring back a single A middle infielder at that point.

 

 

A smart GM brings Garver up to play catcher, DH, and even first base.

[Seth Stohs]

I'm a big Garver fan, but I have no problem with Gimenez being there now... Having Garver (and Murphy) at AAA is a positive for the organization (not for those two). 

 

Until this team is out of things, which could be in mid-June or maybe it won't happen this year and they'll be in it right until the end, I have no problem with them going with two catchers who have been very good defensively.

 

Catcher ERA is pretty meaningless.

 

I think saying Garver would "definitely" be a better hitter than Gimenez, I wouldn't be so certain. I mean, I think he will be a solid MLB hitter, I really do, but we don't know that. 

 

Garver will be part of the future. They aren't going to keep Gimenez next year, if they think Garver can contribute. And he's ready in case there is an injury. Garver can play 1B as well, so in some way, maybe Garver would be in line to replace Adrianza (though I doubt it because it doesn't make sense). 

[Riverbrian]

I don't know what Garver is or will be but I like reading the positive reports.

 

Garver isn't going anywhere and Castro is our starter.

 

Gimenez has done a decent job back there... I don't like the idea of tossing capable ball players a side on the possibility of someone being capable.

 

Garver serves as needed depth... He will get his chance this year most likely.

 

IMO... When a DL stint is needed from Castro or Gimenez... That will be Garver time. Just gotta wait for it a little.

[Linus]

I don't get where he is regarded as a good receiver. Today he had one passed ball and should have had a couple more. He was so predictable in his pitch calling with Berrios asking for first pitch fastballs nearly every time. Lastly he has no chance at the plate. There is a reason nobody offered him a major league deal last off season.

[mikecgrimes]

trade bait, find a team that cares about catcher offense, because I don't.

[mikecgrimes]

 

Here is the other thing:

Team ERA by Catcher: Castro: 3.38 (1118 PA), Gimenez: 6.20 (479 PA)

(that was on the 24th.)

 

That's not fair, Giminez can't catch the only guy on the roster with a 0.00 ERA.

[old nurse]

 

Hasn't GiMENez been catching the #4 and 5 starters? I'm pretty sure Castro has been handling Santana and Berrios, which would tend to skew those ERA numbers juuuust a bit.  

Gimmenez this season had caught 13 games. The sample size of statistics that is large enough is directly proportional to the necessity of those numbers to prove the author's point versus what it takes when you disagree with the author's point.  Gimmenez is not the catcher Castro is. That should be evident by salary.  If the results were as dramatically bad as some would say over his career, Gimmenez's salary would likely be whatever the Saint's pay a catcher.

[drjim]

A smart GM brings Garver up to play catcher, DH, and even first base.

Garver isn't that good of a hitter that he'd be playing over Mauer, Grossman and Vargas.

[goulik]

I would like to see Garver play on the same team as Castro so he can learn from him up close. I believe Garver is our future there, mentor him in.

[bighat]

 

I don't know what Garver is or will be but I like reading the positive reports.

Garver isn't going anywhere and Castro is our starter.

Gimenez has done a decent job back there... I don't like the idea of tossing capable ball players a side on the possibility of someone being capable.

Garver serves as needed depth... He will get his chance this year most likely.

IMO... When a DL stint is needed from Castro or Gimenez... That will be Garver time. Just gotta wait for it a little.

 

Hit the nail on the head.  Pretty much mirrors my thoughts.  I'm not "anti-Garver", but in the end he's an unproven commodity at the big league level.  The Twins are winning, it's almost a certainty they'll be in 1st place on June 1 of this season. 

 

Production from Castro and Jiminez doesn't necessarily need to improve for the Twins to play better.  That improvement's going to come from Buxton, Rosario, Dozier, and Vargas.  Those guys are just hitting their stride here.

 

Wildcard thought:  The Twins deal a few prospects and pick up Salvador Perez at the break.  Whoooaaa Nelly!

[jorgenswest]

Falvey and Levine enter this year knowing Gimenez as well or better than any other player. He has played in both their organizations. If it is so clear that Gimenez should not be on the roster, than we should have absolutely no confidence in the front office and advocate for their removal.

 

It is not clear to me. I don't think there is any good way to measure his value and as a mathematician I want to be able to measure everything. Hopefully I will see a time when there is a good way to measure the value of a catcher and use data to support arguments about who is best suited for the position. I don't think we are close today.

 

At the point, I trust that Falvey and Levine were purposeful and intentional as they overhauled the catcher position. I find arguments related to catcher ERA, slash stats in a split hundreds of plate appearances short of reliability and AAA slash stats very unconvincing.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

Until it breaks, don't try to fix it. A catcher's position should be the leader on the field during a game. They call the pitches to be thrown by the pitchers. They call meetings on the mound and calm the pitchers down and tell the pitchers what's working and what's not working. The catcher is the "on-field" coach. Falvey had a good reason for signing Gimenez and Castro. Castro is a Stanford grad. Gimenez attended the University of Nevada. Both Castro and Gimenez are positive personalities and experienced leaders on the field. All our defensive starters are young and inexperienced, except Dozier and Mauer. I can say lots of wonderful things about Dozier and Mauer, but just based on watching the Twins on tv (therefore I have very little basis for what I'm about to say), it doesn't appear to me that Dozier or Mauer are "on the field, rah, rah, team leaders". Most young players and most pitchers benefit from a smart, experienced, take charge- catcher. It's all about defense and pitching and the defensive leader and the pitching leader on the field is the catcher.

[mikecgrimes]

 

Garver isn't that good of a hitter that he'd be playing over Mauer, Grossman and Vargas.

 

Shouldn't we just call up Jasmil Pinto or whatever his name was?