Gimenez vs Garver

HitInAPinch · May 28, 2017

Falvey and Levine enter this year knowing Gimenez as well or better than any other player. He has played in both their organizations. If it is so clear that Gimenez should not be on the roster, than we should have absolutely no confidence in the front office and advocate for their removal.

It is not clear to me. I don't think there is any good way to measure his value and as a mathematician I want to be able to measure everything. Hopefully I will see a time when there is a good way to measure the value of a catcher and use data to support arguments about who is best suited for the position. I don't think we are close today.

At the point, I trust that Falvey and Levine were purposeful and intentional as they overhauled the catcher position. I find arguments related to catcher ERA, slash stats in a split hundreds of plate appearances short of reliability and AAA slash stats very unconvincing.

A very simple (simplistic?) case for keeping Gimenez:

http://www.startribune.com/twins-take-note-of-adalberto-mejia-shaking-off-catcher/424852453/

With a young pitching staff, catcher is more than just a verb...

bird · May 28, 2017

A smart GM brings Garver up to play catcher, DH, and even first base.

Not necessarily.

Any decision about Giminez's expendability will be almost 100% qualitative and based on things we as fans never see.

Think about how often we're hearing players, when interviewed, mention all the things that we can't measure. It's a remarkably constant theme. I listened to Rosario and then Buxton in just the last couple of days and their comments have me wondering about just how much better things are around the clubhouse these days in terms of those intangibles like culture, chemistry, leadership, and brotherhood.

If their belief is that Giminez is a major contributor to how well his pitchers are absorbing the pre-game reports, and if the pitchers love working with him, and if the clubhouse is more relaxed and positive because of him, why make a change for someone who isn't likely to be a really significant difference-maker? Maybe that's what you already have, statistics aside. Garver's no season savior.

Mike Sixel · May 28, 2017

I think smart FO types will argue that they want Garver hitting every day, not sitting on the bench.

He would not fully develop as a backup for the Twins in '17.

That said, Gimenez does not look good at the plate and once the Twins start losing games and the offense sputters, the gravitational pull toward Garver will become unbearable.

Hopefully, a contending team will lose their backup catcher, or their main, and Gimenez will acquire some trade value, and bring back a single A middle infielder at that point.

By that logic, he doesn't come up next year either, at 27.....

Mike Sixel · May 28, 2017

A very simple (simplistic?) case for keeping Gimenez:

http://www.startribune.com/twins-take-note-of-adalberto-mejia-shaking-off-catcher/424852453/

With a young pitching staff, catcher is more than just a verb...

What young staff?

twins_89 · May 28, 2017

I see no reason why Garver shouldn't replace Gimenez. Garver's bat is clearly superior to Gimenez and from what I've read his defense isn't bad either. There is no argument for Garver being too young (he's 26) or that he needs to play every day (he's only played 24 out of 42 games at Rochester while splitting time with Murphy). Garver has the added benefit of being a potential pitch hitting bat off the bench which is something Gimenez doesn't provide.

Brandon Warne · May 28, 2017

So is he a lock for the roster until he retires? I guess I'm not sure what the upshot is here . . . maybe that they should trade Garver?

Until someone gets hurt or the end of the year, I would guess. Or if they decide to move some pieces around on the bench to where Gimenez plays more in the field.

Blake · May 28, 2017

I don't know what Garver is or will be but I like reading the positive reports.

Garver isn't going anywhere and Castro is our starter.

Gimenez has done a decent job back there... I don't like the idea of tossing capable ball players a side on the possibility of someone being capable.

Garver serves as needed depth... He will get his chance this year most likely.

IMO... When a DL stint is needed from Castro or Gimenez... That will be Garver time. Just gotta wait for it a little.

Yeah, the team is winning. One doesn't mess with a winning formula until the formula no longer works. Anyway, the Twins have some good young talent in the field. Before looking at position players, the Twins should be looking to upgrade pitching. Although, perhaps the rotation is more than serviceable with Santana, Santiago, Berrios, Mejia and whoever else. (I don't see a future with the Twins for Gibson.)

It's been an interesting year, to say the least. Fun, too.

Riverbrian · May 28, 2017

I see no reason why Garver shouldn't replace Gimenez. Garver's bat is clearly superior to Gimenez and from what I've read his defense isn't bad either. There is no argument for Garver being too young (he's 26) or that he needs to play every day (he's only played 24 out of 42 games at Rochester while splitting time with Murphy). Garver has the added benefit of being a potential pitch hitting bat off the bench which is something Gimenez doesn't provide.

You make some good points.

I only question the "clearly superior" part.

Good AAA numbers don't automatically become decent MLB numbers. We won't know until Garver plays MLB ball and shows us.

For example... Gimenez had similar if not better minor league stats than Garver.

How do we know Garver AAA numbers will translate upward when they didn't for Gimenez and they didn't for Buxton and they didn't for many many others? Maybe it's going to take awhile for Garver just to get to Gimenez level production with the big club.

If you cut Gimenez for hitting like the majority of catchers in baseball (including Jason Castro) and you call up Garver and he hits .120. You have just decreased your depth for no reason at all. And when Castro gets hurt after you release Gimenez... You have to bring up Murphy to join Garver who might be hitting .120 and that pair now handles all of our catching. You have created defensive questions to add to the hitting questions.

And we might be 3 games up in July when this happens.

So out of desperation... Lavine is trading Kohl Stewart to rent Alex Avila because Catching went from decent to critical.

After the season is over... Avila signs with the Tigers as a Free Agent and returns to his Dad's team for the 2018 season.

While in Lakeland Florida for Spring Training. Avila is catching Kohl Stewart during a bullpen session and he says... "Hey, Why don't you try this" and it works for Stewart.

He goes on to torture the Twins multiple times a year until he retires at 41.

Disclaimer: The scenerio above is not taken seriously by me and was invented by me.

jorgenswest · May 28, 2017

What young staff?

I thought the article pointed it out. Isn't 40% of their starting staff under 25? Gibson is no lock for that other 20% and it to could be taken by a pitcher with less than 50 major league starts.

John Kelsey · May 28, 2017

Garver is splitting time with JRM in AAA anyways.

I'd much rather have him split time up here.

twins_89 · May 28, 2017

You make some good points.

I only question the "clearly superior" part.

Good AAA numbers don't automatically become decent MLB numbers. We won't know until Garver plays MLB ball and shows us.

For example... Gimenez had similar if not better minor league stats than Garver.

How do we know Garver AAA numbers will translate upward when they didn't for Gimenez and they didn't for Buxton and they didn't for many many others? Maybe it's going to take awhile for Garver just to get to Gimenez level production with the big club.

If you cut Gimenez for hitting like the majority of catchers in baseball (including Jason Castro) and you call up Garver and he hits .120. You have just decreased your depth for no reason at all. And when Castro gets hurt after you release Gimenez... You have to bring up Murphy to join Garver who might be hitting .120 and that pair now handles all of our catching. You have created defensive questions to add to the hitting questions.

And we might be 3 games up in July when this happens.

So out of desperation... Lavine is trading Kohl Stewart to rent Alex Avila because Catching went from decent to critical.

After the season is over... Avila signs with the Tigers as a Free Agent and returns to his Dad's team for the 2018 season.

While in Lakeland Florida for Spring Training. Avila is catching Kohl Stewart during a bullpen session and he says... "Hey, Why don't you try this" and it works for Stewart.

He goes on to torture the Twins multiple times a year until he retires at 41.

Disclaimer: The scenerio above is not taken seriously by me and was invented by me.

If the Twins are afraid to promote a AAA player who is having success over a MLB player who is not would anyone ever get promoted without an injury forcing the issue?

yarnivek1972 · May 28, 2017

Gimenez's ability to pitch in and of itself is reason enough to keep him on the roster IMO.

Riverbrian · May 28, 2017

If the Twins are afraid to promote a AAA player who is having success over a MLB player who is not would anyone ever get promoted without an injury forcing the issue?

Typically... They Don't.

(Injury) is usually the mother of invention.

nater79a · May 28, 2017

Calling up Garver to be the backup really doesn't work for me. Yes, if Castro went on the DL, Mitch should play and probably play the majority of games behind the plate. Gimenez is pretty good against left handers, but the Twins are in a rut where they're seeing almost all right handers.

This would be my take also. Garver would need to play the majority of the time and that only happens if Castro can't play.

mlhouse · May 28, 2017

Garver isn't that good of a hitter that he'd be playing over Mauer, Grossman and Vargas.

Doesnt matter. You play players in a rotation and evaluating and developing Garver is more important going forward than playing Mauer.

mlhouse · May 28, 2017

Not necessarily.

Any decision about Giminez's expendability will be almost 100% qualitative and based on things we as fans never see.

Think about how often we're hearing players, when interviewed, mention all the things that we can't measure. It's a remarkably constant theme. I listened to Rosario and then Buxton in just the last couple of days and their comments have me wondering about just how much better things are around the clubhouse these days in terms of those intangibles like culture, chemistry, leadership, and brotherhood.

If their belief is that Giminez is a major contributor to how well his pitchers are absorbing the pre-game reports, and if the pitchers love working with him, and if the clubhouse is more relaxed and positive because of him, why make a change for someone who isn't likely to be a really significant difference-maker? Maybe that's what you already have, statistics aside. Garver's no season savior.

Because two years from now, no one will remember Giminez. He isn't a forward looking piece. He is just a temporary hold the position guy who cannot and never will hit. Holding back your top catching prospect to sit behind such a player is ridiculous even if it means losing games today.

The Twins simply do not have the lineup to really compete (winning the Central Division is not competing in reality). Pretending they are hurts the development of the team.

yarnivek1972 · May 28, 2017

Because two years from now, no one will remember Giminez. He isn't a forward looking piece. He is just a temporary hold the position guy who cannot and never will hit. Holding back your top catching prospect to sit behind such a player is ridiculous even if it means losing games today.

The Twins simply do not have the lineup to really compete (winning the Central Division is not competing in reality). Pretending they are hurts the development of the team.

I think it is a bit of a stretch to call Garver the Twins top catching prospect. Indeed, the Twins own website ranks Rortvedt ahead of Garver. Garver will likely be the back up catcher in 2018. Not sure how much time he realistically will play elsewhere. Most managers loathe using their back up catcher as their DH.

Riverbrian · May 28, 2017

Because two years from now, no one will remember Giminez. He isn't a forward looking piece. He is just a temporary hold the position guy who cannot and never will hit. Holding back your top catching prospect to sit behind such a player is ridiculous even if it means losing games today.

The Twins simply do not have the lineup to really compete (winning the Central Division is not competing in reality). Pretending they are hurts the development of the team.

I understand what you are thinking and I understand your desire to fill the club with youth at all positions.

But... They ain't pretending now. Winning the Central Is competing and saying that winning the Central isn't competing is... pretending.

You are pretending that they are pretending.

It's like you are saying... It doesn't matter what is actually happening... I don't believe it should happen so it isn't.

drjim · May 28, 2017

Doesnt matter. You play players in a rotation and evaluating and developing Garver is more important going forward than playing Mauer.

Doubtful. A likely backup catcher (if it comes together) is not more important than a starting first baseman.

The Twins are (rightfully) trying to win right now, not evaluate marginal prospects. If they fall out of it, then Garver can get some reps. If there's an injury, maybe he can get some sooner.

Thrylos · May 28, 2017

Hasn't GiMENez been catching the #4 and 5 starters? I'm pretty sure Castro has been handling Santana and Berrios, which would tend to skew those ERA numbers juuuust a bit.

Nope. He caught Gibson just once and the others enough:

By SP

Hughes (4)
Mejia (4)
Santana (3)
Santiago (2)
Gibson
Berrios

I would think that Gibson would affect Castro's ERA

Thrylos · May 28, 2017

This would be my take also. Garver would need to play the majority of the time and that only happens if Castro can't play.

Why exactly? We are talking about a team that is competing. It should have its best 25 men in the majors. That simple.

yarnivek1972 · May 28, 2017

By all accounts, Garver is still a work-in-progress defensivly. He's getting there, but he isn't there yet.

He has 5 passed balls so far this year. Not that that by itself says much, but the scouts are the ones saying he isn't there defensively yet.

mlhouse · May 28, 2017

I understand what you are thinking and I understand your desire to fill the club with youth at all positions.

But... They ain't pretending now. Winning the Central Is competing and saying that winning the Central isn't competing is... pretending.

You are pretending that they are pretending.

It's like you are saying... It doesn't matter what is actually happening... I don't believe it should happen so it isn't.

The team has 26 wins. The only division in the AL that they can win is the Central. They would not be the wild card. But even within the Central, the White Sox and Indians have both scored more runs than the Twins and allowed fewer. So, like most of our division crowns they were a matter of geography rather than being amongst the best teams, and our subsequent playoff debacles demonstrated that emphatically.

If you look at any team with a winning record in major league baseball, only the Orioles have a worse run differential than the Twins and they are just a couple of games above 500. If you look at all of the other teams with winning records their RDiff is +58, +26, +24 (500 team), +16, +62, +59, +21, +41, +55, +73. Being 7 games above 500 with a +3 run differential is not sustainable.

mlhouse · May 28, 2017

I think it is a bit of a stretch to call Garver the Twins top catching prospect. Indeed, the Twins own website ranks Rortvedt ahead of Garver. Garver will likely be the back up catcher in 2018. Not sure how much time he realistically will play elsewhere. Most managers loathe using their back up catcher as their DH.

Garver really isn't anything you define. You put him in the lineup and let him get ABs, positional flexibility, and experience.

Riverbrian · May 28, 2017

The team has 26 wins. The only division in the AL that they can win is the Central. They would not be the wild card. But even within the Central, the White Sox and Indians have both scored more runs than the Twins and allowed fewer. So, like most of our division crowns they were a matter of geography rather than being amongst the best teams, and our subsequent playoff debacles demonstrated that emphatically.

If you look at any team with a winning record in major league baseball, only the Orioles have a worse run differential than the Twins and they are just a couple of games above 500. If you look at all of the other teams with winning records their RDiff is +58, +26, +24 (500 team), +16, +62, +59, +21, +41, +55, +73. Being 7 games above 500 with a +3 run differential is not sustainable.

The Twins have the third best record in the American League right now. That puts them in first place in the Central and the 2nd place team... the Indians... are tied for the final Wildcard spot. That qualifies the Twins for making the playoffs in all ways... yes I understand that there is plenty of season left for things to fall apart or get better still.

Once you are in the playoffs... all of those stats don't mean anything. I watched the Twins win the World Series with Les Straker as the #3 starter in 1987 and run differential of -5 million.

And there was the 2003 Marlins... the 2006 Cardinals who probably shouldn't have won a world series but did. Other teams have reached the playoffs with negative run diff.

I'm as shocked as anyone that we are in 1st place. I'll be shocked if they are still in 1st place at the all-star break but as long as they are... to pull the plug and say we are not going to win it anyway is hubris and it will end up a self fulfilling prophecy.

It's like saying we won't be home in 5 minutes because I'm not going to put gas in the car. And it makes you no better than the owners in the movies "The Natural" and "Major League".

HitInAPinch · May 28, 2017

What young staff?

Berrios, Duffey, Rogers, Mejia...

And I was kinda hoping for replacements coming up for Hughes and Gibson....

yarnivek1972 · May 28, 2017

Berrios, Duffey, Rogers, Mejia...

And I was kinda hoping for replacements coming up for Hughes and Gibson....

Duffey and Rogers are 26.

Brandon Warne · May 28, 2017

2017 splits vs LHPs:
Gimenez: .217/.333/.304 (MLB)
Garver: .368/.429/.632 (AAA)

Just sayin'

27 plate appearances. OK.

twins_89 · May 28, 2017

Typically... They Don't.

(Injury) is usually the mother of invention.

I guess that's where I differ, I want to see the Twins replace a poorly performing vet with a guy from AAA who is playing well (once the vet has been given a reasonable opportunity).

Riverbrian · May 28, 2017

I guess that's where I differ, I want to see the Twins replace a poorly performing vet with a guy from AAA who is playing well (once the vet has been given a reasonable opportunity).

That's why this game is awesome. Multiple ways to approach any situation.

I'm saving my depth because if you drop Gimenez and Either Castro or Garver get hurt. It's then Murphy time and now I'm nervous.

Sign In

Gimenez vs Garver

Recommended Posts

Archived

Member Statistics

Prospect News & Highlights

Recent News

Notes & Rumors

Recent Blog Entries

Recent Status Updates