In Latest Painful Loss, Ryan Jeffers's Hand Injury Could Be Biggest Blow to Twins

[Matthew Trueblood]

Image courtesy of © Jesse Johnson-Imagn Images

On a 2-0 pitch in the bottom of the fourth inning Tuesday night, Ryan Jeffers took a foul ball off his right hand or wrist. It caused him some immediate discomfort, but he stayed in the game for the rest of the frame. However, Christian Vázquez pinch-hit for Jeffers in the top of the fifth, and the Twins announced that Jeffers had departed with a right hand contusion. The team took X-rays, which were negative; that's good news. Still, though, Jeffers leaving helped seal the Twins' fate, as Vázquez came up with the tying and go-ahead runs on base in the ninth and made the final out in the team's fifth straight loss.

 

Hopefully, the results of the scan mean that Jeffers avoided serious injury on the play, but this is the second time this year he's taken a hit to his throwing hand (and the top hand when he's at the plate). When there's a runner on base whom he considers a threat to steal, Jeffers will hold his bare hand in front of him, roughly in his lap. That lets him achieve a quicker transfer and release on throws to nail would-be thieves, but it also puts him at some added risk for the kind of injury he suffered Tuesday.

Even without a fracture, Jeffers could miss a bit of time due to this issue. If the contusion begets swelling, it could interfere both with his efforts to generate good bat speed and with his throws from behind the plate, so the Twins are likely to have Vázquez catch at least the final two games of their series in Cincinnati. If Jeffers isn't back in the lineup (at least as the DH) by Thursday afternoon, we'll know that he's dealing with something a bit more notable.

With no broken bone, Jeffers is likely to stay off the injured list, which is a relief. Vázquez is in no position, based on his age and health or on his performance, to take over as the near-full-time backstop for this team. Jeffers is an important part of the Twins lineup, for both his offensive and his defensive contributions. Without him, a weak batting order grows downright anemic. 

The offending batted ball came off the bat of Reds outfielder Will Benson, and appeared to hit either Jeffers's wrist or the back of his right hand. He immediately winced and spent the rest of the inning flexing and turning his hand, whenever he got an opportunity. It was no great surprise when he was lifted for Vázquez the next time his place in the order was due. The Twins were smart to get a head start on imaging, and thankfully, the absence of a break on the X-ray indicates that Jeffers should be ok. 

Even if he can play through this, though, expect it to have at least a minor effect on how he hits and throws. Jeffers lost a bit of bat speed in the fortnight after his previous hand issue, and William Contreras of the Brewers is severely lacking in the power department this year, largely because he's lost bat speed, too. Jeffers might be fully fine this time around, but in a frustrating loss, the Twins' most terrifying moment might have been when Jeffers had to leave the game.

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[nclahammer]

To compound matters, the Minnesota Twins have little to no catching depth in the minor leagues.   Jair Camargo is the only other catcher on the 40 man roster and he is on the 7 day DL for the St. Paul Saints.  Mickey Gasper is listed an an infielder on the Twins 40 roster, but he has also caught a few games,,,that's it.

[Peter]

Good! Rather see Camargo instead of Jeffers

[tony&rodney]

Jeffers has worked really hard at his craft. I'm appreciative of his efforts. That said, it is the homer in us that identifies him as an average catcher. Jeffers is a big dude who plays big. His movements are what we see in most big catchers. Joe Mauer was taller than Jeffers but played about 4 inches smaller because of his exceptional athleticism. Details like keeping the throwing hand protected eventually matter. Jeffers is a tough guy and hopefully he is back in action Thursday because the Twins didn't like Jair Camargo too much last season and while Gasper works exceptionally hard the pitchers don't want him back behind the plate (watch a Saints game). For now the Twins need both Jeffers and Vazquez because it is tough to play baseball without a catcher. The Twins have not pursued catching which increases the importance of Jeffers returning asap.

I'm still curious if Milwaukee could be persuaded to part with Jeferson Quero? Last November I was wondering if a Brooks Lee for Quero would work and might add a player like Marco Raya to acquire that  catcher now. I wonder what ideas the front office has for next season or an injury?

[Doctor Gast]

Very good point, Matthew. I've been trying to shed light on this problem of lack of MLB catching depth since we traded away both Garver & Rortvedt. How long can Vazquez shoulder the full-time catching duties? Jeffers needs time for his body & hand to recoup & get back to his full potential. W/o obtaining a promising young MLB-ready catcher the Twins has a worse fate waiting for them in this 2nd half & beyond than last year's 2nd half plummet.

[JBK]

With the team sale influx, the Twins will not make a big move to acquire a front-line starter or a catcher to keep this team in the wild card hunt.  Vazquez is what we have to deal with until Jeffers recovers.  How did they not address catching at AAA earlier?  Where would this team be without their 15-game winning streak?  There is so much time left in the season, I hope they make a move and shake it up a little bit.

[Jocko87]

Protect the hand! He's not getting a time benefit from hand position, his technique had improved greatly. 

In the 4th yesterday his technique was crap with Elly on base and got worse after the hand got hit. Watch it again. 

Can't throw me out doing the splits to catch a high fastball, much less Elly. 

Same bad technique allows a delayed steal as well. The hand two inches into his lap makes no difference, it's not worth the risk of getting it hit. 

[umterp23]

59 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Very good point, Matthew. I've been trying to shed light on this problem of lack of MLB catching depth since we traded away both Garver & Rortvedt. How long can Vazquez shoulder the full-time catching duties? Jeffers needs time for his body & hand to recoup & get back to his full potential. W/o obtaining a promising young MLB-ready catcher the Twins has a worse fate waiting for them in this 2nd half & beyond than last year's 2nd half plummet.

Twins mgmt has put them in a really bad place with depth.  Twins made a financial choice to trade Garver in his early 30’s age to not pay him a bunch of money as aging catchers bodies break down. Garver is full time DH and break glass need at catcher spot start. Then turn around and sign Vázquez to way over pay $10MM annual contract for a guy in his 30’s. Rortvedt is not depth we need, dude is in really bad place as a career .186, no power option. He is a cairmago version one but gets big league playing time.  Twins are stuck with Vázquez and for all the fans who believe in a great clubhouse guy, get their wish to be the guy for a few days. 

[tony&rodney]

15 minutes ago, umterp23 said:

Twins mgmt has put them in a really bad place with depth.  Twins made a financial choice to trade Garver in his early 30’s age to not pay him a bunch of money as aging catchers bodies break down. Garver is full time DH and break glass need at catcher spot start. Then turn around and sign Vázquez to way over pay $10MM annual contract for a guy in his 30’s. Rortvedt is not depth we need, dude is in really bad place as a career .186, no power option. He is a cairmago version one but gets big league playing time.  Twins are stuck with Vázquez and for all the fans who believe in a great clubhouse guy, get their wish to be the guy for a few days. 

Totally agree that management has not been proactive on filling the catching position. Trading Garver was a very good move because he was/is unplayable behind the plate. Vazquez was spendy but he does a decent job and the Twins needed a catcher (rock and a hard place). Martin Maldonado and a host of other veteran catchers were available including Narvaez. I believe it must be difficult to trade for a catcher, whether veteran or prospect, but the game always starts with a pitcher and catcher and today's game with the preponderance of strikeouts it is even more imperative than ever to have a good catcher. A number one catcher still needs a back up to catch 40-50 games but an organization must be aggressive towards accumulating those gloves. We have discussed numerous prospects (Rushing, Basallo, Ford, etc.) as potential acquisition. Some may be off limits, maybe all of them. Nevertheless, it is worth a shot. I'm offering Milwaukee Brooks Lee, Marco Raya, and Yasser Mercedes for Jeferson Quero. I'm also calling Seattle about Harry Ford and Colorado. Nothing comes to fruition without trying, which may have already occurred on multiple occasions for all we know. The cost will be high, that is sure. Food too, but still we buy it all the time. Can't play baseball without a catcher.

[jorgenswest]

This might be Gasper’s shot at more consistent playing time. Is he ready? He has 120 minor league starts at catcher including 12 this year. He has allowed 19 of 20 stolen bases in those 12 starts. He has one passed ball and one throwing error. I have watched on mlb.tv and it seems like he could have done better on a few of the wild pitches I have seen. He doesn’t look out of place though. He might be passable in the field if he makes up for it at the plate.

I am not here to say he is a good catcher or even mediocre. He might be good enough though. The Twins signed Brian Harper to a minor league contract in 1988. The Angels and Pirates had given up on him as a catcher. He then moved on to the Cardinal, Tiger and A’s organizations. The Twins had a need at catcher and he got a chance in AAA. It wasn’t his catching that got him to the majors. He had an OPS over 1000 in the PCL after 46 games to start the year. He made it to the majors with his bat and his catching was passable enough in 1988 and improved towards average the more he played.

[jorgenswest]

The Twins also need to be looking for a catcher. If they are a seller Seattle has Harry Ford blocked by Cal Raleigh. He would be costly.

[Road trip]

For those who still have a longing for Rortvedt, he was DFA'd by Tampa a few weeks ago and is no longer on their 40-man roster.  He could likely be acquired at a very low price, but he hits worse than Vazquez.

This may sound crazy-optimistic, but Khadim Diaw, 3rd rounder last year, is tearing up High A ball after a very good college career.  Might the Twins promote him to AA soon... possibly ready for MLB by 2026?  Yeah...I'm probably dreaming, but he looks like he might be at least part of the Twins long term solution for the catching spot.  That won't help us for 2025, but this is already starting to feel like a lost year anyway.

[RpR]

1 hour ago, Road trip said:

For those who still have a longing for Rortvedt, he was DFA'd by Tampa a few weeks ago and is no longer on their 40-man roster.  He could likely be acquired at a very low price, but he hits worse than Vazquez.

This may sound crazy-optimistic, but Khadim Diaw, 3rd rounder last year, is tearing up High A ball after a very good college career.  Might the Twins promote him to AA soon... possibly ready for MLB by 2026?  Yeah...I'm probably dreaming, but he looks like he might be at least part of the Twins long term solution for the catching spot.  That won't help us for 2025, but this is already starting to feel like a lost year anyway.

His glove has dropped to his batting average level also.

[mikelink45]

I do not see Cartaya or Camargo (IL) coming up soon we have had WInkel in Spring training 279/319/878 in AAA and Cossetti 279/319/878 in AA those the next two in my mind.  

 

[tony&rodney]

The ship has sailed on Rortvedt. He began to take his hitting woes behind the plate which ultimately resulted in his being dumped. Not sure if there is any possible hope left in Ben.

Khadim Diaw is looking pretty good when I watch him play, but he is at least 2 years minimum (2027) away from wearing a big league uniform.

Mickey Gasper is well below average behind the plate but works really hard and could serve as a 3rd catcher if the Twins are ready to trade him for Jonah Bride. Bride had a hit last night though so the Twins may be happy with him.

All catchers will fetch a dear price. My argument is that the team shoot really high and offer an outrageous price in order to close a deal. The real issue is if teams simply say no to any offer or are unwilling to engage in any conversations regarding their catchers. This may be true.

[Riverbrian]

Jeffers on the IL is perhaps the worst news we could experience. We are just too thin at the position. 

My opinion won't be popular but... they must lie in the bed they made. 

Don't trade for catching. It's too expensive to acquire for someone who will play every other day at most.

Next man up... whoever it is... is the next man up. If the next man isn't ready for what the majors will throw at him... that's on the Twins because they've failed to prepare themselves for a Jeffers injury. 

Not being ready at catcher isn't something new for 2025. Not being ready resulted in the big contract for Vazquez in the first place.  

[Road trip]

3 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Jeffers on the IL is perhaps the worst news we could experience. We are just too thin at the position. 

My opinion won't be popular but... they must lie in the bed they made. 

Don't trade for catching. It's too expensive to acquire for someone who will play every other day at most.

Next man up... whoever it is... is the next man up. If the next man isn't ready for what the majors... that's on the Twins because they've failed to prepare themselves for a Jeffers injury. 

Not being ready at catcher isn't something new for 2025. Not being ready resulted in the big contract for Vazquez in the first place.  

Perhaps not popular, but I agree, and think it is realistic.

Difference makers at catcher are rare in this era.  Raleigh, maybe Rutschman, and a couple of older guys in Realmuto and Contreras.  Salvy Perez isn't catching as much anymore, and is struggling this year.  I've probably forgotten one or two, but there just aren't many, and they aren't available.

Good backup catchers who give you something both on offense and defense?  Rarer then hen's teeth.  As much as we complain about Vazquez he will likely get signed somewhere next year, because he's still probably among the top 50 catchers in MLB...maybe higher.

Survive the year with what we have at the catcher spot.  We won't get much offense if Jeffers is out any length of time, but there is no fast fix out there.  The Twins are a thin organization and have to stay healthy to make the playoffs and advance.  Same for all the teams not named Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, and a couple of others.  

And then go out and draft a catcher, top 5 rounds.  The Twins did last year and maybe found a keeper.  Supplementing with an international prospect signing or two would also make sense.  Much like a long-desired pitching pipeline, this is a problem the Twins need to solve through their farm system if they want a difference-maker, or even a middle of the league catcher who will eventually take over when Jeffers ages or gets too expensive.

[Western SD Fan]

I'll preface this by saying that I don't want to see anyone hurt and a speedy recovery for Jeffers.  For those who were in the "Free Gasper" camp may get their wish as I suspect he would be the backup catcher brought up from St. Paul if Jeffers goes on the IL.  With that being said, this may be a small blessing in disguise as Vazquez will get more time behind the dish.  I know his hitting is atrocious, but most teams rarely depend on their catchers for substantive offensive production.  Most teams have catchers for their abilities to hold down the running game, frame pitches, and manage pitching staffs.  We just have been overly blessed to have a string of competent offensive catchers since Terry Steinbach, including AJ Pierzynski, Joe Mauer, Kurt Suzuki, Garver, Jeffers, and Jason Castro. Many of us on TD have stated that it looks like that Vazquez looks better at handling the staff than Jeffers.  Our pitching staff just suddenly got a lot younger over the last couple weeks and having a long-time veteran behind the dish is invaluable.

[Doctor Wu]

17 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

The ship has sailed on Rortvedt. He began to take his hitting woes behind the plate which ultimately resulted in his being dumped. Not sure if there is any possible hope left in Ben.

Sad to hear that prognosis. I thought about the possibility of the Twins getting him back after he was waived by the Rays. I knew we wouldn't be getting the second coming of Joe Mauer, but I had hoped that he still has some defensive chops. 

[Riverbrian]

14 hours ago, Road trip said:

Perhaps not popular, but I agree, and think it is realistic.

Difference makers at catcher are rare in this era.  Raleigh, maybe Rutschman, and a couple of older guys in Realmuto and Contreras.  Salvy Perez isn't catching as much anymore, and is struggling this year.  I've probably forgotten one or two, but there just aren't many, and they aren't available.

Good backup catchers who give you something both on offense and defense?  Rarer then hen's teeth.  As much as we complain about Vazquez he will likely get signed somewhere next year, because he's still probably among the top 50 catchers in MLB...maybe higher.

Survive the year with what we have at the catcher spot.  We won't get much offense if Jeffers is out any length of time, but there is no fast fix out there.  The Twins are a thin organization and have to stay healthy to make the playoffs and advance.  Same for all the teams not named Dodgers, Yankees, Mets, Red Sox, and a couple of others.  

And then go out and draft a catcher, top 5 rounds.  The Twins did last year and maybe found a keeper.  Supplementing with an international prospect signing or two would also make sense.  Much like a long-desired pitching pipeline, this is a problem the Twins need to solve through their farm system if they want a difference-maker, or even a middle of the league catcher who will eventually take over when Jeffers ages or gets too expensive.

Great post.

Not having an answer for a Jeffers injury in 2025 is bad enough. Solving this for 2025 is going to require paying market prices and the market prices for catching have been in place for year at a position that only requires playing HALF of all games. However... there is the desperation thing that occurs when you are NOT GROWING YOUR OWN that forces you to pay those prices. Ashbury refers to it as a stupidity Tax. Ashbury is correct. The Twins are spending significant money at the position when they don't have significant money to spend... just to cover for their failure to develop at the position. 

In 2026 Christian Vazquez will be gone and Ryan Jeffers will be in his third year of arbitration, therefore a pending free agent, therefore most likely not here in 2027. If we don't have a decent next man up for Jeffers in 2025, we will probably be in shopping in the over priced catcher aisle during the off-season for 2026 and doing it again for 2027. The money that we will spend on catching will be money not available to address the other positions. 

Meanwhile during the 30 million dollar Vazquez era. Shea Langeliers, Tyler Soderstrom, Carlos Narvaez, Connor Wong, Kyle Teel, Edgar Quero, Korey Lee, Bo Naylor, Dillon Dingler, Yanier Diaz, Freddie Fermin, MJ Melendez, Logan O' Hoppe, Austin Wells, Ben Rice, Tyler Heineman, Gabriel Moreno, Jose Herrera, Drake Baldwin, Miguel Amaya, Hunter Goodman, Braxton Fulford, Drew Romo, Dalton Rushing, Hunter Feduccia, Agustin Ramirez, Nick Fortes, Francisco Alverez, Jackson Reetz, Rafael Marchan, Joey Bart, Henry Davis, Endy Rodriquez, Patrick Bailey, Ivan Herrera, Pedro Pages, Yohel Pozo and Riley Adams have reached the major league shore, That's 38 pre-arb catchers easily identified on the rosters of other clubs with one tour around the rosters of all 30 teams and I'm sure I missed a few.  

And let's not forget that Adley, Cal, Kiebert and William Contreras are in the first year of Arbitration. 

Bottom Line: I don't want MY Twins to over pay for their failure to develop. I don't want them to over pay in prospects and over paying prospects is what it will cost to acquire a catcher in a trade to play half the games. 

I'd rather they sleep in the bed they made... take the deserved hit they have coming to them at the catcher position, take the resources that they would need to spend on a catcher to play half time and spend those same resources on a player who plays full time at 1B or 2B, 3B, SS or OF. 

Anyway... Great Post. 

[Finlander]

So if Vazquez strains a quad...

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

Great post.

Not having an answer for a Jeffers injury in 2025 is bad enough. Solving this for 2025 is going to require paying market prices and the market prices for catching have been in place for year at a position that only requires playing HALF of all games. However... there is the desperation thing that occurs when you are NOT GROWING YOUR OWN that forces you to pay those prices. Ashbury refers to it as a stupidity Tax. Ashbury is correct. The Twins are spending significant money at the position when they don't have significant money to spend... just to cover for their failure to develop at the position. 

In 2026 Christian Vazquez will be gone and Ryan Jeffers will be in his third year of arbitration, therefore a pending free agent, therefore most likely not here in 2027. If we don't have a decent next man up for Jeffers in 2025, we will probably be in shopping in the over priced catcher aisle during the off-season for 2026 and doing it again for 2027. The money that we will spend on catching will be money not available to address the other positions. 

Meanwhile during the 30 million dollar Vazquez era. Shea Langeliers, Tyler Soderstrom, Carlos Narvaez, Connor Wong, Kyle Teel, Edgar Quero, Korey Lee, Bo Naylor, Dillon Dingler, Yanier Diaz, Freddie Fermin, MJ Melendez, Logan O' Hoppe, Austin Wells, Ben Rice, Tyler Heineman, Gabriel Moreno, Jose Herrera, Drake Baldwin, Miguel Amaya, Hunter Goodman, Braxton Fulford, Drew Romo, Dalton Rushing, Hunter Feduccia, Agustin Ramirez, Nick Fortes, Francisco Alverez, Jackson Reetz, Rafael Marchan, Joey Bart, Henry Davis, Endy Rodriquez, Patrick Bailey, Ivan Herrera, Pedro Pages, Yohel Pozo and Riley Adams have reached the major league shore, That's 38 pre-arb catchers easily identified on the rosters of other clubs with one tour around the rosters of all 30 teams and I'm sure I missed a few.  

And let's not forget that Adley, Cal, Kiebert and William Contreras are in the first year of Arbitration. 

Bottom Line: I don't want MY Twins to over pay for their failure to develop. I don't want them to over pay in prospects and over paying prospects is what it will cost to acquire a catcher in a trade to play half the games. 

I'd rather they sleep in the bed they made... take the deserved hit they have coming to them at the catcher position, take the resources that they would need to spend on a catcher to play half time and spend those same resources on a player who plays full time at 1B or 2B, 3B, SS or OF. 

Anyway... Great Post. 

This is an interesting take. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but you seem to say that the Twins have failed to develop catchers and should suffer the consequences of that failure rather than make moves to acquire catchers because they will cost the organization prospects.

The Twins have been among the most fortunate teams in baseball regarding the health of their catchers in the past two plus years. Vazquez is on an expiring contract and is unlikely to return at a bargain price. The Twins may pay that price. Jeffers has worked hard behind the plate but struggles defensively and would seemingly suffer if his workload increased. Without a competent catcher the team will suffer. 

The Twins are unlikely to make a major trade in any event for any position player so the entire conversation may be pointless, but I will propose it is very difficult to have a AAA catcher who cannot catch or hit or throw behind the plate. I'm not understanding how suffering an incompetent catcher works.

San Francisco and Boston or Boston and the Chicago White Sox have shown that big trades can be completed. The unknown is whether any team will consider moving a player for a big return. For example, if a team wants Walker Jenkins, Lopez, Ober, or Ryan from the Twins, is there any player or combination of players that would induce Falvey to complete a transaction? Hypothetically would the West Sacramento A's trade Nick Kurtz for Joe Ryan? Catching? Would Milwaukee even listen if the Twins offer Brooks Lee, Marco Raya, and Gabriel Gonzalez for Jeferson Quero? Or are trades too costly and not worth the cost in players or prospects? Are you ok with Mickey Gasper and Jeffers next year and Jair Camargo somewhere in there? FWIW, Falvey believes he has the infielders and outfielders the team needs to compete. 

[Riverbrian]

12 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

This is an interesting take. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding but you seem to say that the Twins have failed to develop catchers and should suffer the consequences of that failure rather than make moves to acquire catchers because they will cost the organization prospects.

 

Great Post 

You nutshell my thoughts pretty good in this first paragraph. 

We have limited resources (Money - Pre Arb Talent) and those two issues are not a good combination BTW.

We have 24 other roster spots that require attention and some of those roster spots are going to be compromised because we don't have the budget.

if we choose to spend those limited resources on the catcher position it will prevent us from addressing other positions sufficiently.  In other words... we will have to compromise somewhere. I'd rather not spend the little we have at a position where the market prices are inflated and a position that plays roughly 50% of the time. I'd rather take the hit and spend the little money on someone who plays more often.  

Spend the limited money on a catcher... you don't have money left for a 1B. 

We are already low on pre-arb players. If you spend your top prospects on a catcher and you'll have to to get a good one. You won't have pre-arb players on the roster in future years, which mean we will patching holes year after year and hoping they perform average like France and not horribly like Margot. 

Trade a Joe Ryan (For example only) for a young top catching prospect. OK... but... do we want to trade Ryan for a catcher who plays roughly 50% or would it make more sense to trade Joe Ryan for a Cags or Kurtz and stop the 1B revolving door of low budget opens. 

In a nutshell... we are going to compromise somewhere. I choose catcher and the front office deserves it for failing to develop. I've listed all the pre-arb catchers. Our single success story is Jeffers and he will be gone come 2027. We are currently paying 14.5 million for our catching tandem. We are paying our every day 1B 1 million because we can't afford a 3 million dollar. 

Take the hit at catcher. Strengthen elsewhere. 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

4 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

The Twins are unlikely to make a major trade in any event for any position player so the entire conversation may be pointless, but I will propose it is very difficult to have a AAA catcher who cannot catch or hit or throw behind the plate. I'm not understanding how suffering an incompetent catcher works.

As for this part. Am I OK with a AAA catcher who cannot catch or hit or throw behind the plate?

No... I'm not ok with that. I would be rather upset with that. 

After Jeffers, If we have failed to develop beyond a AAA catcher who cannot catch or hit or throw in the 8.5 years of the Falvey regime... I'm going to be rather unhappy and honestly... I'm already there.

What's the bar here. Vazquez? A good defensive catcher with very little bat. We haven't been able to identify a catcher, coach them to be a good defensive catcher at the very least? We can't clear that bar. So now we got to spend another 10 million dollars for the position. In the meantime, Vazquez gets to OPS in the .500 range and regular turn in the rotation without threat to his job.  

As bad as that is... I feel it would be even worse to correct this failure by committing a significant portion of the available resources to fix it externally because it all ties together under the umbrella of the budget and we need the very little we have. 

Give up decent prospects? OK... we currently have 7 pre-arb players on the roster. Two of those 7 will be Arb 1 next year. Whose coming to bring that 7 pre-arb players to the 18 that the Tigers have with the best record in baseball. Every player that is not pre-arb dips into the budget. Trading our future to fill this catcher hole will just keep the bad train rolling with the Twins spending 4 million here and 4 million there and 4 million here on average talent to fill those holes that other teams are filling pre-arb. 

If we are not developing pre-arb talent to free up money and we don't have money to spend. It's just a matter of time before the rebuild is declared and we are hoping that #4 pick overall in the MLB draft is a good one. 

The Tigers have Dingler. Where is our Dingler? 

I'd rather they just wear it.   

[tony&rodney]

2 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

As for this part. Am I OK with a AAA catcher who cannot catch or hit or throw behind the plate?

No... I'm not ok with that. I would be rather upset with that. 

After Jeffers, If we have failed to develop beyond a AAA catcher who cannot catch or hit or throw in the 8.5 years of the Falvey regime... I'm going to be rather unhappy and honestly... I'm already there.

What's the bar here. Vazquez? A good defensive catcher with very little bat. We haven't been able to identify a catcher, coach them to be a good defensive catcher at the very least? We can't clear that bar. So now we got to spend another 10 million dollars for the position. In the meantime, Vazquez gets to OPS in the .500 range and regular turn in the rotation without threat to his job.  

As bad as that is... I feel it would be even worse to correct this failure by committing a significant portion of the available resources to fix it externally because it all ties together under the umbrella of the budget and we need the very little we have. 

Give up decent prospects? OK... we currently have 7 pre-arb players on the roster. Two of those 7 will be Arb 1 next year. Whose coming to bring that 7 pre-arb players to the 18 that the Tigers have with the best record in baseball. Every player that is not pre-arb dips into the budget. Trading our future to fill this catcher hole will just keep the bad train rolling with the Twins spending 4 million here and 4 million there and 4 million here on average talent to fill those holes that other teams are filling pre-arb. 

If we are not developing pre-arb talent to free up money and we don't have money to spend. It's just a matter of time before the rebuild is declared and we are hoping that #4 pick overall in the MLB draft is a good one. 

The Tigers have Dingler. Where is our Dingler? 

I'd rather they just wear it.   

Perhaps you missed that a couple of my suggestions were for pre-arb players. In fact, I have never advocated for signing bottom of the barrel veterans. It is what the Twins will do though-add a veteran.

[Riverbrian]

16 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Perhaps you missed that a couple of my suggestions were for pre-arb players. In fact, I have never advocated for signing bottom of the barrel veterans. It is what the Twins will do though-add a veteran.

I thought your posts were great. Did I leave an opposite impression? If I did... it wasn't intended. 

I saw your suggestions. I have no way of knowing exact valuations from each team but I do have the assumption that Quero and Kurtz will be expensive to acquire with similar valuations.  

Will Joe Ryan (for example) get the deal done? I don't know but we don't have many Joe Ryan value players to offer and I feel it would be a mistake to spend your Joe Ryan bomb on a 60% of the time player... so give me the more ABs that Kurtz will bring,.. if those are my only two options. 

Trading Lee, Maya and G. Gonzalez for Quero? I don't know who says no in that deal but it better be the Twins saying no. I'm saying yes to that deal if I'm the Brewers and this is the example of that over pay that I want the Twins to avoid filling the catching position. This is the double down fixing their failure. 

Trades like this are why I'm saying... just lie in the bed you made. Don't damage the team further fixing this damage caused by this failure to develop. 

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Riverbrian said:

I thought your posts were great. Did I leave an opposite impression? If I did... it wasn't intended. 

I saw your suggestions. I have no way of knowing exact valuations from each team but I do have the assumption that Quero and Kurtz will be expensive to acquire with similar valuations.  

Will Joe Ryan (for example) get the deal done? I don't know but we don't have many Joe Ryan value players to offer and I feel it would be a mistake to spend your Joe Ryan bomb on a 60% of the time player... so give me the more ABs that Kurtz will bring,.. if those are my only two options. 

Trading Lee, Maya and G. Gonzalez for Quero? I don't know who says no in that deal but it better be the Twins saying no. I'm saying yes to that deal if I'm the Brewers and this is the example of that over pay that I want the Twins to avoid filling the catching position. This is the double down fixing their failure. 

Trades like this are why I'm saying... just lie in the bed you made. Don't damage the team further fixing this damage caused by this failure to develop. kyle Tucker

The Twins will need to develop their own players in any event because the odds of adding a Kyle Tucker or Dylan Cease is near zero. Additionally, Falvey has been very risk adverse since the deadline deals a few years ago. The big deals for the Twins will continue to trades for Gasper or signing France. My expectation is that the team may sell in a few years and then we shall see wholesale changes. Until then, perhaps the Twins improve in their draft position and get lucky with a couple of choices. The A's have been a woeful franchise but adding Jacob Wilson at #6 in 2023 and Nick Kurtz at #4 in 2024 were golden touches. Both of those players have great bats and they both can play average to above defense. The Twins need the same. Until that time we have a roster of mostly DH guys.

[Linus]

22 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Great Post 

You nutshell my thoughts pretty good in this first paragraph. 

We have limited resources (Money - Pre Arb Talent) and those two issues are not a good combination BTW.

We have 24 other roster spots that require attention and some of those roster spots are going to be compromised because we don't have the budget.

if we choose to spend those limited resources on the catcher position it will prevent us from addressing other positions sufficiently.  In other words... we will have to compromise somewhere. I'd rather not spend the little we have at a position where the market prices are inflated and a position that plays roughly 50% of the time. I'd rather take the hit and spend the little money on someone who plays more often.  

Spend the limited money on a catcher... you don't have money left for a 1B. 

We are already low on pre-arb players. If you spend your top prospects on a catcher and you'll have to to get a good one. You won't have pre-arb players on the roster in future years, which mean we will patching holes year after year and hoping they perform average like France and not horribly like Margot. 

Trade a Joe Ryan (For example only) for a young top catching prospect. OK... but... do we want to trade Ryan for a catcher who plays roughly 50% or would it make more sense to trade Joe Ryan for a Cags or Kurtz and stop the 1B revolving door of low budget opens. 

In a nutshell... we are going to compromise somewhere. I choose catcher and the front office deserves it for failing to develop. I've listed all the pre-arb catchers. Our single success story is Jeffers and he will be gone come 2027. We are currently paying 14.5 million for our catching tandem. We are paying our every day 1B 1 million because we can't afford a 3 million dollar. 

Take the hit at catcher. Strengthen elsewhere. 

 

 

This post deserves a gold star. 

[Linus]

20 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

As for this part. Am I OK with a AAA catcher who cannot catch or hit or throw behind the plate?

No... I'm not ok with that. I would be rather upset with that. 

After Jeffers, If we have failed to develop beyond a AAA catcher who cannot catch or hit or throw in the 8.5 years of the Falvey regime... I'm going to be rather unhappy and honestly... I'm already there.

What's the bar here. Vazquez? A good defensive catcher with very little bat. We haven't been able to identify a catcher, coach them to be a good defensive catcher at the very least? We can't clear that bar. So now we got to spend another 10 million dollars for the position. In the meantime, Vazquez gets to OPS in the .500 range and regular turn in the rotation without threat to his job.  

As bad as that is... I feel it would be even worse to correct this failure by committing a significant portion of the available resources to fix it externally because it all ties together under the umbrella of the budget and we need the very little we have. 

Give up decent prospects? OK... we currently have 7 pre-arb players on the roster. Two of those 7 will be Arb 1 next year. Whose coming to bring that 7 pre-arb players to the 18 that the Tigers have with the best record in baseball. Every player that is not pre-arb dips into the budget. Trading our future to fill this catcher hole will just keep the bad train rolling with the Twins spending 4 million here and 4 million there and 4 million here on average talent to fill those holes that other teams are filling pre-arb. 

If we are not developing pre-arb talent to free up money and we don't have money to spend. It's just a matter of time before the rebuild is declared and we are hoping that #4 pick overall in the MLB draft is a good one. 

The Tigers have Dingler. Where is our Dingler? 

I'd rather they just wear it.   

I also really like the concept of viewing pre-arb talent as a resource, not dissimilar to free agency payroll. It probably be the main criteria by which a front office should be judged. With lots of it you all things are possible: trades, money for free agents etc.   Without it, larger contracts for filler players, less money for really good players and a whole lot scrap heap type acquisitions. 

[Riverbrian]

52 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

The Twins will need to develop their own players in any event because the odds of adding a Kyle Tucker or Dylan Cease is near zero. Additionally, Falvey has been very risk adverse since the deadline deals a few years ago. The big deals for the Twins will continue to trades for Gasper or signing France. My expectation is that the team may sell in a few years and then we shall see wholesale changes. Until then, perhaps the Twins improve in their draft position and get lucky with a couple of choices. The A's have been a woeful franchise but adding Jacob Wilson at #6 in 2023 and Nick Kurtz at #4 in 2024 were golden touches. Both of those players have great bats and they both can play average to above defense. The Twins need the same. Until that time we have a roster of mostly DH guys.

Anyway you slice it. The key to everything is development and I am really concerned about the offensive side of the ledger. This thing will crash... we can't keep France-ing our way through this and not adding decent pre-arb talent.

Every non-pre arb player on the roster will eat into that budget. 

The Tigers with the best record in baseball have 18 pre-arb players out of 26. The Twins have 7.

That 11 player difference is money available in the budget to sign DIFFERENCE MAKERS instead of low cost hope they are at least average players. 

That's why it was a huge deal when Camargo sat and watched Vazquez OPS in the .500's. That's why it's a big deal that McCusker was held back. That's why Miranda and Julien hitting the struggle button is scary. That's why rostering Bride and not playing him to see if he has anything is a huge deal and that's why only investing  playing time in Lewis or Lee types matter. 

Once you go around the league and count Pre-arb players on the other 29 rosters... you discover that the Twins are low and they are in the same grouping as teams like the Phillies and Dodgers. We can't compete with those teams financially. They are signing BIG MONEY guys and we are signing LOW MONEY guys. We need to be in the pre-arb arena that Detroit and Cleveland and Milwaukee are in so we can take the 4 million here and 4 million there add it together and play at a higher level in the free agent market.