Rocco Baldelli Knowingly Put His Head On the Chopping Block to Wake Up His Team. What If It Doesn't Work?

[jmlease1]

The real issue this team is facing right now is that they've been missing guys like Correa, Buxton, and Ryan for a long stretch now (and Ryan ain't coming back). That's a talent deficit, and it makes it harder to find room to rest guys. 

What I find ridiculous is this idea that the Twins need more "fire" (whatever the hell that means) or that players can't be tired because they're paid a lot. There's absolutely no way that these players don't care about the result and aren't giving their best effort; I dare anyone to call someone on the roster a malingerer and actually have anything to back it up other than being mad about their performance or because they just don't like that player's game. (hint: no one will have anything. no one.)

They're struggling right now, and it sucks.

The manager will probably get fired if they collapse all the way out of the playoffs, not because it's really Rocco's fault or because he's a bad manager but because it's a lot easier to change the manager than to change the players. Sometimes it even works, just getting a different voice can matter even if they're saying the same things.

But unless this front office changes (and I know there are many on this site who want nothing more), the next manager won't substantively change all that much, it'll just be a change in personality.

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, D.C Twins said:

I've said it for at least 3 years. Rocco is not a leader of men.

He belongs in the FO here or elsewhere. He appears to be intelligent and thoughtful but he is not well suited to be a manager. 

He will never manage another team when he is eventually fired from this one. That tells you all you need to know. 

 

The fact that you think a former AL Manager of the Year with a quality record and win % and a sterling reputation around MLB won't get another chance to manage says a lot. If Rocco loses his job in the offseason, the only reason he won't manage another team is if he decides he doesn't want to do it. He made good money as a player, has made good money as a manager and doesn't need it. But if he's willing to go to Miami or Texas or Anaheim etc he'll definitely be managing again.

If he wants it. 

[insagt1]

When a team starts to lose,  a lot, like the Twins now, 'fatigue' is more mental than physical. Your mental attitude goes from winning to trying not to lose. When you're not 'happy', it shows in many ways. Watch the Twins faces. Look at their late inning AB's. Look at how they watch strikes down the middle and then flail away at pitches this side of Wyoming. They are in a collective funk and most certainly I would give the likelihood of them blowing a playoff spot now pretty high odds. Everyone is 'tired' near the end of the 162 game marathon. But the winners don't care. They soldier through...and win. The losers wallow, complain, make excuses and lose and they cant stop it. The Phils of 64; Cubs of 69; Twins of the years already mentioned; the Orioles this year. Fans can smell a losing team a mile away and they can't do a thing about it.

Only members of FO's I can bring to my mind who meddled bigtime in the day to day activities of their teams would be King George; Peter Angelos; Marge Schott. So it does happen but not too much. Perhaps you all could name others.

I too thought Twins would respond differently to the dressing down last night. Instead they looked every bit as bad; as mentally out of it; and in no way ready to compete. What does that mean? Bad manager? Lost the room? PLayers don't care anymore? Injuries taking their toll? Everyone is 'tired'? We can pick our poison. But what we all do know is that this team has been sliding for several weeks now and they may not be able to pull up.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

This notion that the team is tired...

Carlos Santana is the only player over 30 year's old that is in the lineup every day. 

Tired is flat-out an excuse.

This is more about a team that has thrown games away with poor bullpen usage and lack of fundamentals - three recent examples - the Alcala meltdown game in Texas, the Julien botched DP, and Saturday night in KC - Twins could have a 5 or 6 game lead right now and that looms large especially with the upcoming series at Fenway.

Over the course of 162 games, every single team will deal with injuries and fatigue - some teams more than others but no one escapes it. 

The Twins were 17 games over .500 in the end of July - without Correa and with Buxton being and out of the lineup. Even playing .500 ball from that point and they'd have a wildcard spot essentially clinched. The injuries have hurt but the bigger issue is a manager that is unable to push the right buttons. Zero feel. He's tried the nice guy routine, he's tried the stoic Joe Torre routine, and he's tried the tough guy routine.

The team simply doesn't respond to this guy. The 2019 Bomba Squad was the outlier. In 2020, the White Sox pissed down their leg and the Twins backed into a division title. 2021 was a disaster. 2022 is a carbon copy of 2024 when things got tough and the manager couldn't steady the ship. They're fortunate that the division was as bad as it was in 2023 or they've would have been home in October despite a rotation that featured Pablo, Gray and Ryan all pitching at a high level.

Rocco is a good guy. You can see that. But he's not a good manager. The Twins are in the midst of an epic collapse. 6 game lead for a playoff spot in late August and its about to evaporate. The roster needs a new voice. They need a manager who sees the game on the field instead of behind a computer. 

Correa might get back on the white horse and maybe saves Rocco from himself. But that's the only hope the Twins have and the Pohlad's need to be smart enough to see that regardless of making the playoffs or not, they have a manager who is in over his head.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

Oh, and forgot to add - the biggest indictment against Rocco was his team's performance last night. He put them on blast out in the open for everyone to see and they came out and laid an egg against a team that looked like a split-squad in March. They're absolutely done with this guy and if the Pohlad's opt to ignore it, 2025 is a 75 win season...

[chpettit19]

42 minutes ago, Verified Member said:

Citing an unnamed worker saying anything is not proof. It could be proof if you would have linked the article that provides the name and the quote referred to.

Jack Goin. Here's an article where he comments about writing lineups for Gardy in 2013. So before Rocco and this regime even take over the front office is already providing their input on lineups. (He also talks about not wanting too many platoons which I wish this FO agreed with) Here's the forum he talks about Derek and/or Thad talking with the top of the coaching staff "multiple times per day. Is this information going to convince anyone around here they're wrong and Rocco isn't acting independently without input from the front office?

 

[USAFChief]

35 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

The fact that you think a former AL Manager of the Year with a quality record and win %

Would it surprise you to know that "quality win %" is, as of today, 2 games under .500 since 2020?

Rocco's team won over 100 games in 2019. He gets credit for that. But he did inherent a team that set the MLB record for HRs and scored 939 runs. They also were swept out of the postseason in 3 straight losses.

2020, it's hard to give anyone credit or blame. 60 game season against a limited schedule with partial rosters. But he did win the ALC.

Since then? 

 

[terrydactyls]

Too much above to either comment on or respond to.  One question that I have for the general populous:  Why were two bad D111 pitchers (Levine and Falvey) given the authority to dictate on-field activities?  I looked for the college career stats for both gentlemen, and this is what I found.

Thad Levine - pitched four years at Haverford college.  I could only find top performances for each year, no individual statistics.  He led Haverford pitchers in:

HBP - once

Balls - twice

Wild Pitches - once

Complete Games - twice

Losses - twice

Wins - twice

ER Allowed - twice

Ks - once

Hits Allowed - three

Era - once (but it was 5.79)

Derek Falvey - pitches three years at Trinity College.  Trinity does not have any historical data on its website.  All I could find was that he played three years and was considered "not very good" by his former coach.

So I ask again - WHY?

 

 

[USAFChief]

23 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Jack Goin. Here's an article where he comments about writing lineups for Gardy in 2013. So before Rocco and this regime even take over the front office is already providing their input on lineups. (He also talks about not wanting too many platoons which I wish this FO agreed with) Here's the forum he talks about Derek and/or Thad talking with the top of the coaching staff "multiple times per day. Is this information going to convince anyone around here they're wrong and Rocco isn't acting independently without input from the front office?

 

And here is Jayce Tingler, Rocco's RH man,  commenting in the same piece:

"I've been absolutely blown away by how much they put on Rocco's plate. The front office stays really out of it. We are provided so much information, and we talk through all the scenarios before the game. And then at the end of the day Rocco makes the call."

 

Rocco makes the call. 

 

For the record, Goin hasn't worked for the Twins since 2017.  Not sure how this is relevant, since he admits he's guessing. Also note...Gardy rejected Goin's lineup suggestions. Because, wait for it, he was the manager, and it's his job to make out the lineup. Not Jack Goin's.

 

 

[howeda7]

They  will now have missed the play-offs three times in four years in a weak division. Two of the years a play-off spot was sitting there on a platter and they completely collapsed. It's as much on Falvey as it is on Rocco. I think they should both go, but it should certainly be a discussion at this point.

[hitterscount]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

They don't call down to the dugout and tell him to take players out, but they talk everyday and set the parameters for the decisions he makes in game. Our bosses in the real world don't call us in the middle of every project we're doing and tell us exactly what to do when, but they give us the parameters and expectations for how it should be done. Same thing. If they didn't like how he did things he'd have been fired long ago.

Are there individual moves here and there that they wouldn't have done the same or didn't like? Of course. Nobody is on the same page about 100% of things. But they gave him an extension while he managed this way. Doing all those "head scratcher moves." The idea that Rocco is making decisions independent of the front office or the way they want things done is misguided. He isn't. They talk literally everyday during the season. They are very much involved in the way games are managed. 

Do you think if they fired Rocco they'd hire some fire and brimstone manager who ignored their analytics and managed "by his gut?" Or do you think they'd hire someone who platooned, pulled pitchers after 83 pitches sometimes, didn't have a set closer all the time but instead used matchup based data to make decisions (data that comes from the FO, by the way)? 

Absolutely not buying it…if that’s the case Rocco needs to grow a pair. No way does the FO dictate managerial decisions, in any pro sport. If you want to blame the personnel on the FO , great, not the decisions being made on the field. 

[chpettit19]

45 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

And here is Jayce Tingler, Rocco's RH man,  commenting in the same piece:

"I've been absolutely blown away by how much they put on Rocco's plate. The front office stays really out of it. We are provided so much information, and we talk through all the scenarios before the game. And then at the end of the day Rocco makes the call."

 

Rocco makes the call. 

 

For the record, Goin hasn't worked for the Twins since 2017.  Not sure how this is relevant, since he admits he's guessing. Also note...Gardy rejected Goin's lineup suggestions. Because, wait for it, he was the manager, and it's his job to make out the lineup. Not Jack Goin's.

 

 

Of course Rocco makes the call. I've never claimed otherwise. What I've claimed is that he's not working independent of the front office. What I've claimed is that firing Rocco isn't going to lead to a drastically different approach to managing the team.

Do you think the FO hates platooning? They have Margot and Farmer and Garlick and Luplow types on the roster all the time, but it's Rocco doing all the platooning on his own? Do you think they hate how early he pulls his starters? Do you think they hate how he uses his relievers? You think they think his every other day catcher usage is nonsense? Or do you think they agree with all those things and that's why they not only hired him but extended him?

My point has been that this isn't a Rocco problem. It's a FO problem. They aren't going to hire someone who is going to manage the team differently than how they built it to be managed. I don't get why this is controversial. Rocco and the FO agree on these strategies. It's why they're followed. It's why he was hired. It's why he's still here. And it's how the next manage would manage if he's fired but Falvey and Levine stay.

And, yes, Gardy rejected his lineup because he's the one in charge of the clubhouse and how that's handled and the people side of things. Just like I said Rocco is. My claim has always been that they do things together. That Rocco isn't acting independently of the front office. And your proof that I'm wrong is that Gardy didn't just do exactly what he was told. Which has never been my argument. They work together. Which is what I've said from the beginning and you roundly reject because you think they put together a team that's clearly built for all the strategies Rocco deploys but they'll randomly hire someone who will deploy different strategies. Yeah, I can follow that very clear logic.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, hitterscount said:

Absolutely not buying it…if that’s the case Rocco needs to grow a pair. No way does the FO dictate managerial decisions, in any pro sport. If you want to blame the personnel on the FO , great, not the decisions being made on the field. 

So your belief is that the FO brings in platoon only bats and disagree with them being platooned constantly? You think they hate how he manages but extended his contract? You think they secretly want a manager who'd do things differently but just aren't firing him? The Pohlads made a public declaration that this front office had to keep Molitor for at least a year. They fired him as soon as they could and brought in Rocco. Is it your opinion that the Pohlads are now forcing them to keep Rocco? Did they force them to extend Rocco? Or is it more likely that the FO like Rocco and the way he does things and that's why they hired and extended him? If they fired him, is it your opinion they'd hire a manager who doesn't platoon, leaves all his starters in for 7 to 9 innings every night, only uses Duran in the 9th, has 1 dominant catcher and the other who plays 1/4 the time, and never pinch hits?

And I've never said "dictate." I said they set the parameters. And I said they set them with him. They all agree on these strategies. That's the point. The front office and Rocco agree on these strategies and it's how the next manager would manage if they fire Rocco. That's why it's not a Rocco problem. It's a front office problem. Either they bring in righties who only hit lefties because Rocco told them that's how he wants to manage even though they disagree or they hired Rocco because he believes in the same platoon strategy as them. Which do you think it is?

[purplesoldier4u]

"For some, this fade--a second one in three years, whether it ends as badly as 2022 did or not--is confirmation that Baldelli is not a good manager. I disagree, vehemently. However, this tendency to struggle late in seasons--to go along with the grind and let it wear them to a nub, which we saw even to some extent in 2019 and 2020--does seem to be a pattern for his teams. That might be because, given the shape of the team they're trying to build, the organization has chosen the wrong model for the manager role."

Umm, okay.

[purplesoldier4u]

For the sake of blaming the owners, the front office, the manager/coaches, and the players, one might say that the parenthetical chickens have come home to roost. Coming into this season, it appeared there was absolutely no formidable business plan, only hopes, prayers, and wishes.

[Craig Arko]

How long does Baldelli’s current contract run for?

[Jocko87]

4 hours ago, Karbo said:

I'm really bored hearing about these players being tired. They get paid more than 80% of the working population, They work (play) 6-7 months per year, they have the rest of the year to work on conditioning and training. And they're tired? What about the rest of the league? Aren't they playing just as long? I haven't heard them complaining. Why are the Twins so much more tired than they are? "Tired" just sounds like an excuse to me!

 

3 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

He agrees with their strategies. Not sure why that's a lack of integrity. That's the point. Rocco wasn't hired and extended and forced to manage in a way he disagrees with. He was hired BECAUSE these are the strategies he also believes in. He came from Tampa. Most of their strategies are stolen from Tampa. They wouldn't hire someone who doesn't agree with their philosophies. That's the entire point.

Tying these things together, part of the plan is to manage the regular season so everything comes together for a healthy postseason run.  Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face.

They embraced depth so they could stay afloat with more IL time than most. They manage pitcher workload aggressively even if the game thread is a dumpster fire of second guessing.  They've promoted aggressively and hung onto prospects because they knew they would need far more than 40. They brought in 15 bullpen options just to get through a long season.

They require the same performance from Correa, Farmer and Lee-Buxton, Margot and Martin.  Not the same output but the same level of professional execution and playing to ability. They have not had that recently and it's a very tricky leadership thread to ride. To my eye, the young guys are struggling with the mixture of being told all season we are pacing ourselves but still go all out for execution. Correa understands that concept naturally, Lewis is obviously struggling with it.  Now that it's time for acceleration getting all the way to the bottom of the depth chart is showing.  Guys are in roles they haven't seen before.  Correa knows how to press the gas, Lewis has never been that guy before.

They aren't tired, even though it manifests as such. They are learning on the fly and while it sucks right now it's likely to pay off long term. 

Baseball is a game of right place, right time-not hustle. We are seeing mental fatigue from learning on the fly.

Rocco isn't anywhere near the chopping block, much to the chagrin of a few of us.  This is part of the plan even if it wasn't planned to go this deep.

[Linus]

Have specific players or Rocco actually said they are tired?  Or is this somebody saying they look tired and now it’s become fact?  Seems to me a more obvious reason is their two best players are hurt and / or they constructed a feast or famine lineup that is slumping badly. 

[twinfan]

While I questioned Rocco's lineup decision on our leadoff batter last night, I don't blame him for the current funk we are in. We don't move runners along. we let pitches down the middle go by then swing at pitches that bounce 5 feet in front of home plate. We have 3 major aspects of our starting lineup injured. We have 2 starters who can't pitch. So what is the manager to do? If this was early in the season, we wouldn't be anywhere near a playoff spot. But it is late in the season and we are desperately trying to hold on. Even if we make it, can we beat Houston-especially since we can't hit left handers? We can only hope that Boston and Seattle don't get hot though we do play Boston later on and that may be who goes to the playoffs as the last wild card. Let's hope the team can turn this around fast and Duran can effectively close down games again.

[JADBP]

We all seem to agree that saying “the players are exhausted” is an inane, indefensible comment by Rocco because these are highly paid professional athletes.  One wonders why Rocco would offer such an excuse for their poor play?  
 

It doesn’t offer cover for the athletes—it throws them under the bus.  It doesn’t offer cover for himself—he’s responsible for their preparation.  it doesn’t offer cover for the Front Office—they chose these athletes.  
 

I can’t understand where Rocco is coming from with this comment.  Could it have been a slip up out of exasperation or frustration?  Could it have been truthful?  Could it have been directed at the FO (an indictment against the pure analytics-driven approach)?  
 

I am open to suggestions but I lean towards its truthful. If so, now what?  
 

I say truth because we completely wore out several pitchers from overuse leading to injury.  We have bounced players from position to position confounding their preparation. We have many stars on the bench.  
 

Its hard to ask for consistency when the coaching is so inconsistent!  
 

 

[Shaitan]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Jack Goin. Here's an article where he comments about writing lineups for Gardy in 2013. So before Rocco and this regime even take over the front office is already providing their input on lineups. (He also talks about not wanting too many platoons which I wish this FO agreed with) Here's the forum he talks about Derek and/or Thad talking with the top of the coaching staff "multiple times per day. Is this information going to convince anyone around here they're wrong and Rocco isn't acting independently without input from the front office?

 

While interesting, this quote is 11 years old and consists of how two employees who are no longer in the organization interacted.

I guarantee the organization doesn't work the same as it did in a previous decade. And if it does, that inability to adapt seems like a bigger concern.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Shaitan said:

While interesting, this quote is 11 years old and consists of how two employees who are no longer in the organization interacted.

I guarantee the organization doesn't work the same as it did in a previous decade. And if it does, that inability to adapt seems like a bigger concern.

One of the quotes is from last September about a situation 11 years ago, yes.

There's not a person who follows major league baseball who would argue that the front offices are LESS involved with the manager and clubhouse. It doesn't work the same, no. The front office and manager/coaches are even MORE intertwined now.

[Mike Sixel]

4 hours ago, USAFChief said:

So then you DO have an extremely low opinion of Baldelli's integrity?

Would you accept a job you weren't allowed to do?

 

And yes, I would hope a new manager would do some things differently. 

 

WTF does this even mean? Bosses set parameters and discuss how they want things done all the time. I literally have no idea if you have any idea how management works in business. 

[Mike Sixel]

I look at this roster, and I see like four or five at most legit MLB hitters that I have confidence in, and somehow it's the managers fault they can't hit. 

The injuries and Julien and Lewis forgetting how to pay are killing them. 

[USAFChief]

14 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

WTF does this even mean? 

It means I disagree with the premise Baldelli isn't responsible for the decisions required of someone in Baldelli's position. 

I disagree with the idea Baldelli isn't making them.

And I question what it is someone is saying about Baldelli when they propose that BALDELLI would accept an arrangement where he's not trusted to do his job. 

 

 

 

[Jocko87]

Baldellis job ultimately comes down to deciding what factor or data point is the most important in a certain situation, informed by his bosses wishes as a data point.

There will be times he goes against their general wishes if the situation dictates and I believe he has that leeway.  There have been a few times recently I would have had a few questions but ultimately I would trust him as that decision maker.

[karcherd]

I think the front office heavily influences the decisions made by Rocco.  They have built an analytics staff, including moving on from some scouts in the offseason and adding more to the analytics staff.  I have been in the finance world my whole career, you don't build a staff and have them gather data and then do nothing with the data.  I believe it is very much expected that he follows the data given to him and I don't believe there is much latitude.  Even though I strongly dislike much of his game management, I believe his moves are being directed by the front office via the analytics staff and you can tell by how predictable his moves are, that is why he keeps getting out managed by other better managers.  

The question also needs to be asked is Rocco the right manager for a younger team.  He has said he lets the players determine their pregame preparation.  Does that work for younger players who need to learn and maybe need more structure.  How many young players have come up and had sustained success since he has been manager.

At some point there has to be a look at this organization and say are they on the right path.  I don't think they are and believe the trio of Falvey, Levine and Rocco should all be on the hot seat.  

[Riverbrian]

If you are Brad Pitt and you put together a strategy to build a competitive baseball team and Phillip Seymour Hoffman who works under you refuses to implement the strategy. What kind of shelf life would that manager have. This ain't the movies... He'd be gone.  

On the other hand or foot... What manager would want to work for a baseball front office knowing that he was going to have to swim against the tide in order to be insubordinate? 

The front office, analysts, manager and coaches have to be heading the same direction. The direction would have to be set by the POBO. Rogue managers will not survive. 

If I have a problem with Rocco as manager (I don't). But... if I did... I'm not calling for his head... I'm calling for the head of the people who hired him.

If Rocco isn't doing what they ask of him... the problem will take care of itself with a new manager who will do what they ask. 

[TheLeviathan]

4 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

If you are Brad Pitt and you put together a strategy to build a competitive baseball team and Phillip Seymour Hoffman who works under you refuses to implement the strategy. What kind of shelf life would that manager have. This ain't the movies... He'd be gone.  

On the other hand or foot... What manager would want to work for a baseball front office knowing that he was going to have to swim against the tide in order to be insubordinate? 

The front office, analysts, manager and coaches have to be heading the same direction. The direction would have to be set by the POBO. Rogue managers will not survive. 

If I have a problem with Rocco as manager (I don't). But... if I did... I'm not calling for his head... I'm calling for the head of the people who hired him.

If Rocco isn't doing what they ask of him... the problem will take care of itself with a new manager who will do what they ask. 

Making sense is an ineffective strategy on this topic.

[chpettit19]

30 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

It means I disagree with the premise Baldelli isn't responsible for the decisions required of someone in Baldelli's position. 

I disagree with the idea Baldelli isn't making them.

And I question what it is someone is saying about Baldelli when they propose that BALDELLI would accept an arrangement where he's not trusted to do his job. 

 

 

 

That's a lot of disagreeing with points I don't see anyone making.

Nobody, especially not me, has said he isn't responsible for decisions he makes.

Nobody, especially not me, has said he isn't making the decisions. 

Nobody, especially not me, is saying he isn't trusted to do his job.

Go read my posts again. My point, from the beginning, has been that firing Rocco doesn't solve the problem because the front office believes in these strategies! They hired someone who agreed with their strategies and they trusted to execute them. If they fired him, they would hire somebody else who agrees with their strategies and they trusted to execute them. Rocco got hired (and extended) because he believes in the same strategies as the front office. This isn't rocket science. Rocco and the front office are on the same page. Firing Rocco doesn't get rid of "quick hooks," platooning, Duran being used in the 8th here and there, pinch hitting, players moving around the field, etc. Because those are front office strategies that Rocco agrees with and the front office would just bring in somebody else who believes in the same things.

This isn't a Rocco problem, it's a front office problem. They didn't ask Rocco how he wants to run the team and then went and built a team around that. They found somebody that had the same vision as them and went to work building a team that they trusted Rocco to manage the way they all agreed was the best way. You're disagreeing with points nobody is making.

Or do you believe they think he does everything wrong but they're tying their careers to him anyways?