Final: Mariners 3, Twins 2: Minnesota Misplays Cost A Victory

[Patzky]

55 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

Martin was already in the game, substituted for Larnach in LF in the 8th.

Buxton running for Miranda and Jeffers hitting for Vazquez absolutely should have happened though.

Could have put Farmer out there to run but he'd have probably gotten picked off. Is Thielbar fast?

[Linus]

People are overthinking this. Vasquez and Miranda didn’t make two relatively basic plays. They make those and the Twins win and all the second guessing is moot. 

[LambchoP]

When you lose this many one run games you gotta ask why? Management. I put this one on Rocco. Vasquez is the WORST hitter in MLB. We play him for his defense, but his defense cost us a run. Why on earth would he hit in the 10th inning with a runner on rather than pinch hit with Jeffers. Also, why not let Buxton hit? Dudes been on a tear and Roccos response is to sit him in an important game. I don't get it, I'd love a real manager who wants to win...

[howeda7]

4 hours ago, wabene said:

You actually have 2 posters who don't rail on the manager questioning Rocco on this one. The defense isn't on Rocco, but the choices made in the 10th are on him. 

The Vazquez situation is a tough one for Rocco. The front office made the signing which most weren't against, but now what do they do? Rocco has to play him, so I'm not sure Howeda's complaint is valid. Sure this is a tougher series than the last so he could've set it up as Howeda suggests to have Jeffers in 2 of 3 against a tough staff. I don't think they are going to have Jeffers catching 2 out of every 3 games until the stretch run, so as long as Vazquez is here you're going to see him in the batter's box.

Tough loss.

Why is it a tough situation?  Vazquez's salary should be irrelevant. He's the back-up catcher, not a co-starter and should be treated as such. Most starting catchers in MLB catch at least 2/3 of their teams games. Why can't the Twins? They showed their hand in the play-offs. Jeffers every single game. But in the regular season a 50/50 split is required? There's absolutely no reason for that.  

[wabene]

17 minutes ago, howeda7 said:

Why is it a tough situation?  Vazquez's salary should be irrelevant. He's the back-up catcher, not a co-starter and should be treated as such. Most starting catchers in MLB catch at least 2/3 of their teams games. Why can't the Twins? They showed their hand in the play-offs. Jeffers every single game. But in the regular season a 50/50 split is required? There's absolutely no reason for that.  

It's a tough situation because you still have 15mm owed to a veteran, now backup, catcher under contract for 1.5 years that Rocco's bosses won't just release. You can't really blame them since the next catcher in line is completely unproven and there is no one ready after him. 

I never said I didn't think Jeffers couldn't play 2 out of 3 games. I implied that the front office won't play him that much until the stretch run and as you mentioned in the playoffs.

I will say across baseball catchers aren't playing as many games as before. I'm not going to die on a hill arguing against this because last year this team was able to play it's best in the playoffs. In the past I remember the Twins limping into the playoffs and having to start guys like Dobnak and Duensing with a quad A outfield behind them.

[howeda7]

7 minutes ago, wabene said:

It's a tough situation because you still have 15mm owed to a veteran, now backup, catcher under contract for 1.5 years that Rocco's bosses won't just release. You can't really blame them since the next catcher in line is completely unproven and there is no one ready after him. 

I never said I didn't think Jeffers couldn't play 2 out of 3 games. I implied that the front office won't play him that much until the stretch run and as you mentioned in the playoffs.

I will say across baseball catchers aren't playing as many games as before. I'm not going to die on a hill arguing against this because last year this team was able to play it's best in the playoffs. In the past I remember the Twins limping into the playoffs and having to start guys like Dobnak and Duensing with a quad A outfield behind them.

His salary may be a reason they don't DFA him and call up Jair, (even though it shouldn't be) but it should have nothing to do with how often he starts. It should be irrelevant.

I'm not suggesting Jeffers has to be Sal Perez in his prime and start 150 games. But let's not act like Jeffers starting 100 games at catcher and Vazquez 60 instead of 80/80 is some huge stretch that will wear him down. He's in his prime. He's not 38 years old. 

[wabene]

Just now, howeda7 said:

His salary may be a reason they don't DFA him and call up Jair, (even though it shouldn't be) but it should have nothing to do with how often he starts. It should be irrelevant.

I'm not suggesting Jeffers has to be Sal Perez in his prime and start 150 games. But let's not act like Jeffers starting 100 games at catcher and Vazquez 60 instead of 80/80 is some huge stretch that will wear him down. He's in his prime. He's not 38 years old. 

100 games? I'd do that! Plus I wouldn't give Vazquez all the plum starts against leftys. Quite the opposite, Vazquez can't hit anyway, why waste those matchups on him?

[jimbo92107]

Ironically, if Miranda holds the ball, Seattle probably doesn't score. But where's the fun in that?

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, wabene said:

I was discussing Rocco. If you want to talk about letting Jeffers catch 120-130 games a year, that isn't a decision that is made by Rocco alone. As is said over and over a new manager would use the catcher in the same way. Look at the bright side, we don't roster 3 catchers anymore.

I do not buy this excuse making for Rocco.

The manager writes the lineup card. If someone other than a doctor is telling Rocco who not to play, that's all the more reason to can him and find someone who actually manages.

There is no reason on God's green earth Vazquez should share catching duties 50-50. 

No reason Vazquez hits late last night. 

As mentioned above, he's such a slave to process he's paralyzed. Anyone remember last year when he had several regulars out on "scheduled rest" the same game,  and when questioned said he couldn't think of any solution?  

We need a MLB manager. 

 

 

[USAFChief]

40 minutes ago, wabene said:

It's a tough situation because you still have 15mm owed to a veteran, now backup, catcher under contract for 1.5 years that Rocco's bosses won't just release. You can't really blame them since the next catcher in line is completely unproven and there is no one ready after him. 

I never said I didn't think Jeffers couldn't play 2 out of 3 games. I implied that the front office won't play him that much until the stretch run and as you mentioned in the playoffs.

I will say across baseball catchers aren't playing as many games as before. I'm not going to die on a hill arguing against this because last year this team was able to play it's best in the playoffs. In the past I remember the Twins limping into the playoffs and having to start guys like Dobnak and Duensing with a quad A outfield behind them.

Play it's best? They won 1 three game WC series. 

[wabene]

Just now, USAFChief said:

Play it's best? They won 1 three game WC series. 

You don't think it was a step in the right direction?

[wabene]

13 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

I do not buy this excuse making for Rocco.

The manager writes the lineup card. If someone other than a doctor is telling Rocco who not to play, that's all the more reason to can him and find someone who actually manages.

There is no reason on God's green earth Vazquez should share catching duties 50-50. 

No reason Vazquez hits late last night. 

As mentioned above, he's such a slave to process he's paralyzed. Anyone remember last year when he had several regulars out on "scheduled rest" the same game,  and when questioned said he couldn't think of any solution?  

We need a MLB manager. 

 

 

The dugout isn't the only place these decisions are made, you know that right?

[USAFChief]

7 minutes ago, wabene said:

The dugout isn't the only place these decision are made, you know that right?

No, I don't know that.

Of course Rocco gets advice from multiple sources. But nobody else is making these decisions. It's literally his job.

He's the person writing out the lineup card. 

His job to PH or not. Make pitching changes. Bunt. Steal. Position the defense. 

His job. His responsibility. 

If a nerd with a spreadsheet is making PH decisions in the 10th inning, that's all the more reason to can ALL of them, including Rocco for not doing his job.

[Parfigliano]

6 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Ugh ! There is no way to spin this loss into something positive. 

A positive that definitely won't happen is Rocco getting fired.

[USAFChief]

14 minutes ago, wabene said:

You don't think it was a step in the right direction?

Well, it felt pretty good, but let's be honest.

They won 87 games. They only made the postseason because ALC. They don't make the postseason in any other division. They won a best of 3 series, at home. And then went out rather meekly. 

And I would argue they got THAT far despite the manager, not because of him.

[DocBauer]

Vazquez is a very good and experienced defensive catcher. But all he had to do was snag a perfect throw and wait to tag the runner who would have been out by 10-15 feet. There's just no excuse.

I thought Miranda made a nice play at 3B. He attempted a tag and then made a throw to 1st that was a little tough, but within Santana's ability to handle. I have a hard time passing out an error on that play. But the runner ran completely out if the basepath ON TO THE GRASS by a couple of feet to "avoid contact with the defender". I call BS on that. He should have been ruled out 

Tough game. Close game. I missed the extra innings for sleep purposes so I can't comment. But it shouldn't have gotten to extras. It should have ended 2-1 with the Twins winning in 9.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, LambchoP said:

When you lose this many one run games you gotta ask why? Management. I put this one on Rocco. Vasquez is the WORST hitter in MLB. We play him for his defense, but his defense cost us a run. Why on earth would he hit in the 10th inning with a runner on rather than pinch hit with Jeffers. Also, why not let Buxton hit? Dudes been on a tear and Roccos response is to sit him in an important game. I don't get it, I'd love a real manager who wants to win...

They're 14-10 in one run games. If that's attributable to the manager then Rocco is clearly an above-average manager. That is a pretty good record considering Thielbar has been useless, Stewart has been injured and Duran has been mediocre.

[Mike Sixel]

3 hours ago, mnfireman said:

Martin was already in the game, substituted for Larnach in LF in the 8th.

Buxton running for Miranda and Jeffers hitting for Vazquez absolutely should have happened though.

Ah. Missed that. The real issue is Vazquez hitting. And catching more games than Jeffers. 

[ashbury]

By the numbers you might think this Twins offense is top-8 based on a nice runs per game that has been boosted in recent weeks.  But then they face a good pitcher not having an off-night, and they put up two runs in six innings, and none in the four innings of relief they faced including a 10th inning gift runner at second. 

They run up the score when a good pitcher has a bad game, or against pitchers who don't belong in the majors in the first place.  And, if they make the playoffs, guess what kind of pitchers they don't face very often?

Despite the potential we've been seeing for years, this team still doesn't know how to shift strategy and "find a way" against a pitcher who is making his pitches.  Yesterday they stuck with Plan A, apparently, and scored one homer for two runs as a result.  I don't have a specific remedy to offer but that's the job of the batting coaches, and probably the others involved in strategy.

[stringer bell]

I think Rocco is an okay manager. I've disagreed with the early pinch hitting and catcher usage. The catcher usage has been less of an issue since Jeffers has cooled considerably this month. However, he's still the superior offensive option to Vázquez and not hitting for Vázquez in the tenth doesn't make sense. Bigger picture--with other capable options available to DH, Jeffers only gets more PAs while catching, so he should be catching more.

[chpettit19]

4 hours ago, LambchoP said:

When you lose this many one run games you gotta ask why? Management. I put this one on Rocco. Vasquez is the WORST hitter in MLB. We play him for his defense, but his defense cost us a run. Why on earth would he hit in the 10th inning with a runner on rather than pinch hit with Jeffers. Also, why not let Buxton hit? Dudes been on a tear and Roccos response is to sit him in an important game. I don't get it, I'd love a real manager who wants to win...

While I agree Rocco was terrible last night, the Twins are 14-10 in 1 run games. They were 14-5 before this little streak of 1 run losses. Was management the reason they were so unbelievable in 1 run games before?

[bean5302]

3 hours ago, Linus said:

People are overthinking this. Vasquez and Miranda didn’t make two relatively basic plays. They make those and the Twins win and all the second guessing is moot. 

In no way, shape or form was that Miranda attempt "basic." That was an infield hit Miranda was trying to rob with an extraordinary play. Santana not blocking the ball and letting it get past him is where things went really sour. Can't let that ball get past you.

It shouldn't have mattered since there was runner interference when Raleigh chose to run in front of Miranda. Cal Raleigh should be been forced to return to 2B, runner out at first. It wasn't a out-of-lane issue since the base running lane is only established at the point the fielder has the ball and is attempting the tag. Raleigh did adjust his lane, but not by 3 or more feet at that point.

[Mike Sixel]

4 hours ago, Linus said:

People are overthinking this. Vasquez and Miranda didn’t make two relatively basic plays. They make those and the Twins win and all the second guessing is moot. 

Both can be true. 

[JD-TWINS]

6 hours ago, Linus said:

As I’ve stated before the Twins play sloppy baseball with regularity. Sometimes it doesn’t cost them, last night it sure did. 

Lewis’ throwing error when Alcala pitched not long ago(3-2 loss)……Lewis getting thrown out at 3B in 10th and erasing ability to score(loss)……Jax walking lead-off batter and then the Miranda error(loss)……..all in the last 8-9 games. It’s a problem!

[KirbyDome89]

2 hours ago, ashbury said:

By the numbers you might think this Twins offense is top-8 based on a nice runs per game that has been boosted in recent weeks.  But then they face a good pitcher not having an off-night, and they put up two runs in six innings, and none in the four innings of relief they faced including a 10th inning gift runner at second. 

They run up the score when a good pitcher has a bad game, or against pitchers who don't belong in the majors in the first place.  And, if they make the playoffs, guess what kind of pitchers they don't face very often?

Despite the potential we've been seeing for years, this team still doesn't know how to shift strategy and "find a way" against a pitcher who is making his pitches.  Yesterday they stuck with Plan A, apparently, and scored one homer for two runs as a result.  I don't have a specific remedy to offer but that's the job of the batting coaches, and probably the others involved in strategy.

You said the quiet part out loud. 

Nearly 3 straight weeks facing bottom 5 staffs has skewed perception. 

[wabene]

Unlike last year when the Twins performed well against the elite of the league, this year the opposite is true. There are nearly 80 games left to prove they can change this. I'm rooting for them.

[chpettit19]

31 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Lewis’ throwing error when Alcala pitched not long ago(3-2 loss)……Lewis getting thrown out at 3B in 10th and erasing ability to score(loss)……Jax walking lead-off batter and then the Miranda error(loss)……..all in the last 8-9 games. It’s a problem!

Lewis tagging up on a leadoff fly ball to right center was the right baseball play. Just didn't work out because of a perfect throw. That wasn't a "sloppy baseball" play. It was just the other team making a great play.

[DJL44]

16 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

You said the quiet part out loud. 

Nearly 3 straight weeks facing bottom 5 staffs has skewed perception. 

The other teams get to face bad pitching too. It isn't like the Twins are the only teams who get to play the White Sox and Rockies.

There are complaints that the best pitchers shut down the Twins lineup. That's what the best pitchers do - they shut down other teams. That's why they're the best pitchers.

They're not the murderer's row Yankees but in a year where offense has been difficult to find for most teams the Twins are doing pretty well.

[LA Vikes Fan]

7 hours ago, Patzky said:

Hope better bats in the lineup today (Jeffers and Buxton) will mitigate any pitching control issues or defense miscues. Anyone think the batting order needs a shakeup? Specifically bumping Royce (pressure?) and Kepler down. 

 

Castro Larnach Correa Miranda Jeffers Buxton Lewis Santana Kepler?

 

Probably the ideal offensive starters..

I have a slightly different lineup in mind -

Castro LF

Correa SS

Miranda/Lewis 3B/1B/DH (whoever is hotter, right now Miranda)

Santana 3B/1B/DH 

Buxton CF

Lewis/Miranda 3B/1B/DH

Lee 2B (up for Martin or Larnach, Castro goes to LF) 

Jeffers C

Kepler/Margot platoon RF

 

[Patzky]

30 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

I have a slightly different lineup in mind -

Castro LF

Correa SS

Miranda/Lewis 3B/1B/DH (whoever is hotter, right now Miranda)

Santana 3B/1B/DH 

Buxton CF

Lewis/Miranda 3B/1B/DH

Lee 2B (up for Martin or Larnach, Castro goes to LF) 

Jeffers C

Kepler/Margot platoon RF

 

I see Kepler near the bottom too! Lewis is off tonight but he needs a reset. You have Santana just a smidge higher than I'd like. Do love Correa all but guaranteeing a base runner in the first.