Has Willi Castro Forced Himself into the Twins' Long-Term Plans?

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, nicksaviking said:

Throughout the entire history of this game, AAA players coming up and being ready-made studs has been the exception, not the rule. Most players need to come up and take their lumps before they show if they're going to be any good.

That's obvious on its face to everyone but one person.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Hunter McCall said:

He’s controllable through 2025. I think keeping him rostered through his current contract would be wise assuming he sustains similar production.

Sure, in year to year increments assuming his arb numbers don't get too high, and all that. I like Castro. But I'm not locking him up for more than 1 year at a time.

Good call on the 2nd arb year, too. Not sure why I was thinking he only had 1 left.

[nicksaviking]

7 minutes ago, Hunter McCall said:

So the position player WAR leader is the one who gets the short end of the stick? I think that could be very detrimental to a team competing for a division title.

No, I'd start by booting the veteran outfielders first. Truly, I don't dislike Castro, just the situation the Twins have put themselves in.

But I don't care about the division title. My goal is to build a sustainable World Series contender, and I don't think this organization has had an honest to goodness contender since 2006. Obviously Castro here and now is the safer choice for the division title though and I don't fault anyone else for prioritizing that at the moment. Going with the youth is my own preference.

[RpR]

4 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Throughout the entire history of this game, AAA players coming up and being ready-made studs has been the exception, not the rule. Most players need to come up and take their lumps before they show if they're going to be any good.

Not on a team that is trying to make the play-offs except when forced by non-controlled circumstances, which the Twins muddled through last year.

Total failure.

[SwainZag]

1 minute ago, nicksaviking said:

Throughout the entire history of this game, AAA players coming up and being ready-made studs has been the exception, not the rule. Most players need to come up and take their lumps before they show if they're going to be any good.

And MLB pitching is MUCH hard to hit than AAA pitching.  You named 8 guys who you think should be getting ML AB's,  Who you taking off the 40 man and 26 man roster?  Castro has better speed and positional flexibility than anyone you named.  His OPS is low, but he was forced into a starting position much longer than he really should have been.  He is a weapon off the bench.

A competing team isn't going to DFA half their veterans to give guys who are 25-28 full time AB's because they hit over .800 OPS in AAA.  Trevor Larnach is a prime example.  He crushes AAA pitching and gets exposed by ML pitching...and he probably has the highest potential ceiling of the bunch.  This seems like such a "grass is greener on the other side" type thing.  

You might not care about a division title, but I bet you the current players, front office and staff does.

[RpR]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

No, I'd start by booting the veteran outfielders first. Truly, I don't dislike Castro, just the situation the Twins have put themselves in.

But I don't care about the division title. My goal is to build a sustainable World Series contender, and I don't think this organization has had an honest to goodness contender since 2006. Obviously Castro here and now is the safer choice for the division title though and I don't fault anyone else for prioritizing that at the moment. Going with the youth is my own preference.

Dumping veterans and using unknown wishful thinking wannabe rookies will build a sustainable WS contender?

It only took 22 years last time the Twins did that.

[jorgenswest]

Long term plans? That would equate to contract extension talk. Probably not.

2024? Absolutely. He is the young. Played very well in AAA at 21. Rushed to the majors he stumbled but the potential he showed very young in AAA is showing up. He is in the midst of an age grouping of Larnach, Jeffers and Wallner and like them has time to improve.
 

 

[mickster]

2 hours ago, Brett said:

It seems like utility players and relievers will have quite a bit of variation year to year. I’m sure many of us thought that Nick Gordon would be a key piece after last year. Maybe next year is Michael Helman’s time to shine.

When Gordon comes back, do you part with Farmer instead? Or Solano? Or everyone’s least favorite .780 OPS, Gallo? Tough call.

Part with Gordon

 

[Schmoeman5]

7 minutes ago, RpR said:

If they were good enough to e. arn their way up, they would not be stuck in AAA.

Major League is not a proving ground for rookie wannabes, that is what AAA is for.

Major league is exactly what you state it isn't. AAA is a place to hone ones skills but it doesn't guarantee success in the majors. Playing MLB baseball against the best competition does. And you'll never know what they can do until they're given an opportunity. Julien is a perfect example. When Polanco went out, he got an opportunity to perform and so far he has. What exactly do you mean? And Michael Helman is a guy in AAA who I believe could fill the Castro role. But we'll never know until he gets a chance to prove it. Or not.

[SwainZag]

2 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Major league is exactly what you state it isn't. AAA is a place to hone ones skills but it doesn't guarantee success in the majors. Playing MLB baseball against the best competition does. And you'll never know what they can do until they're given an opportunity. Julien is a perfect example. When Polanco went out, he got an opportunity to perform and so far he has. What exactly do you mean? And Michael Helman is a guy in AAA who I believe could fill the Castro role. But we'll never know until he gets a chance to prove it. Or not.

And Julien earned his way up by crushing AA, AAA and WBC pitching as a 23-24 year old.

Helman could certainly be a Castro type guy, even though he is already older.  If he keeps hitting in AAA I imagine he should earn a 40 man roster slot but age certainly really isn't on his side right now.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Hunter McCall said:

Who else is going to play 5-6 positions on the field and provide the production he has? In a vacuum, yes, guys like Brooks Lee have more potential than Willi Castro, but they aren’t the same. You have to have a guy on your roster who can play many positions and there’s not one player in the organization who can do it better than Willi Castro has this year.

One thing I think makes a difference on the Castro take is this idea that "you have to have a guy on your roster who can play many positions." I read that, based on many of your comments here, to mean that you need someone who can play infield and outfield. I disagree with that in a vacuum. The Twins obsession with pinch hitting, platooning, mixing and matching every last little thing is what requires them to have someone who can do that. But if you build your team differently you don't need it.

If you have more regulars who you're willing to let hit against basically anybody, and lock down positions on a full time basis you don't need a guy who can go from CF to 3B to 2B to LF in 1 game. If you have 3 everyday outfielders I could argue you're better off with a Keirsey as a 4th OFer who's a superior OF defender and can also steal basis. 4 IF spots locked up? Kyle Farmer is all you need to backup that entire quartet. But when you have very few guys who are good enough to, or you're willing to let, lock down a position full time so you play endless matchup games then you "have to have" that guy.

[Mike Sixel]

12 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

One thing I think makes a difference on the Castro take is this idea that "you have to have a guy on your roster who can play many positions." I read that, based on many of your comments here, to mean that you need someone who can play infield and outfield. I disagree with that in a vacuum. The Twins obsession with pinch hitting, platooning, mixing and matching every last little thing is what requires them to have someone who can do that. But if you build your team differently you don't need it.

If you have more regulars who you're willing to let hit against basically anybody, and lock down positions on a full time basis you don't need a guy who can go from CF to 3B to 2B to LF in 1 game. If you have 3 everyday outfielders I could argue you're better off with a Keirsey as a 4th OFer who's a superior OF defender and can also steal basis. 4 IF spots locked up? Kyle Farmer is all you need to backup that entire quartet. But when you have very few guys who are good enough to, or you're willing to let, lock down a position full time so you play endless matchup games then you "have to have" that guy.

well said

[Schmoeman5]

Just now, SwainZag said:

And Julien earned his way up by crushing AA, AAA and WBC pitching as a 23-24 year old.

Helman could certainly be a Castro type guy, even though he is already older.  If he keeps hitting in AAA I imagine he should earn a 40 man roster slot but age certainly really isn't on his side right now.

Crushing at AAA is not the same. It gives you an indication. But you don't know what one can do until they get that chance. He earned the call. Yes. But IF Polanco stayed healthy where would he be? In AAA that's where. I was down in Florida for ST and I advocated for Julien to come north. But the powers that be decided otherwise. And that was with Polanco starting the year on the IL. Gordon's 2022 season and Castro pushed him down.

[Major League Ready]

His wRC+ is 95 so basically league average.  That production looks a lot better when it comes from a switch hitter that can play several positions pretty well and steal bases very effectively.   I hope he becomes expendable, but that day is not here yet.

[RpR]

27 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Major league is exactly what you state it isn't. AAA is a place to hone ones skills but it doesn't guarantee success in the majors. Playing MLB baseball against the best competition does. And you'll never know what they can do until they're given an opportunity. Julien is a perfect example. When Polanco went out, he got an opportunity to perform and so far he has. What exactly do you mean? And Michael Helman is a guy in AAA who I believe could fill the Castro role. But we'll never know until he gets a chance to prove it. Or not.

Castro is here, do not need Helman.

Not grade school every one gets a chance.

[Schmoeman5]

Just now, RpR said:

Castro is here, do not need Helman.

Not grade school every one gets a chance.

You know who Helman is. Have you seen him play? And I wasn't talking about now. The question was posted about who do the Twins have in their organization who could fill Castros role. Grade school remark

[SwainZag]

5 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Crushing at AAA is not the same. It gives you an indication. But you don't know what one can do until they get that chance. He earned the call. Yes. But IF Polanco stayed healthy where would he be? In AAA that's where. I was down in Florida for ST and I advocated for Julien to come north. But the powers that be decided otherwise. And that was with Polanco starting the year on the IL. Gordon's 2022 season and Castro pushed him down.

If Polanco was healthy he would probably be putting up Polanco-esk numbers and we wouldn't be hurting as much for offense this year. I think it's pretty clear that Julien isn't going to be a long term 2nd basemen.  The Buxton debacle right now is what's clouding up Julien's immediate future IMO, especially with AK manning 1st.  Then again if Kep and Gallo are both gone next year, AK could move to a corner and make way for Julien at 1st.....that is if they trust his glove there even.

Most players get opportunities through injury or position openings when guys don't get extended, that's kind of the name of the game in baseball.  You earn a spot by taking advantage of those opportunities unless you are a mega prospect.  

[Hunter McCall]

49 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

Long term plans? That would equate to contract extension talk. Probably not.

2024? Absolutely. He is the young. Played very well in AAA at 21. Rushed to the majors he stumbled but the potential he showed very young in AAA is showing up. He is in the midst of an age grouping of Larnach, Jeffers and Wallner and like them has time to improve.
 

 

I more so meant through his current contract. Essentially taking Gordon’s spot.

 

[Mike Sixel]

19 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

If Polanco was healthy he would probably be putting up Polanco-esk numbers and we wouldn't be hurting as much for offense this year. I think it's pretty clear that Julien isn't going to be a long term 2nd basemen.  The Buxton debacle right now is what's clouding up Julien's immediate future IMO, especially with AK manning 1st.  Then again if Kep and Gallo are both gone next year, AK could move to a corner and make way for Julien at 1st.....that is if they trust his glove there even.

Most players get opportunities through injury or position openings when guys don't get extended, that's kind of the name of the game in baseball.  You earn a spot by taking advantage of those opportunities unless you are a mega prospect.  

Polanco being up means Julien isnt (he's only up because Polanco was hurt). In no way would the offense be better if you pull out Julien and put in Polanco.

[JD-TWINS]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Yeah, I'm used to having a utility player on the team, but for the foreseeable future, I want to see them giving as many MLB ABs as possible to these guys, Sure, some could use time in AAA, but others could audition right now. They have enough players with flexibility to make that happen even without a traditional utility player. It's not ideal, but the clock is ticking.

If Brian Dozier or Luis Arraez had been coming up as non-elite prospects right now, would we have ever known what they could have become? There just seems like too many mouths to feed at the moment and most aren't getting fed.

I'd also be more than happy to compromise on the matter and wait to do anything until Lewis comes back. Then with Correa's backup on the roster, Castro could be optioned and the search for the future could commence in force.

The guys is helping us win games nearly everyday……..he allows in game moves to be made seamlessly with his flexibility ……..no reason to option him to see if we have a couple guys in AAA that can do the same things. Grass is always greener…… Castro has been a steady contributor! I don’t care if guys in AAA are getting a shot - play great and you’ll get a shot when one’s available. Play well and you’ll get that acknowledged and you’ll stay in AAA.

No need to “see how guys will do”……the Big Leagues are not for experimentation unless a team is out of the race or steadily declining. It’s been acknowledged, our biggest problem is hitting in our 3 hole……..it’s not our Utility Guy!

[SwainZag]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Polanco being up means Julien isnt (he's only up because Polanco was hurt). In no way would the offense be better if you pull out Julien and put in Polanco.

If Polanco was healthy the first half the season I have a hard team the offense wouldn't have been better as a whole.  Julien only started 36 games in the 1st half, a healthy Polanco probably starts 75.  If only we can field a team where both a healthy Jorge and Julien exist.

[JD-TWINS]

27 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

If Polanco was healthy he would probably be putting up Polanco-esk numbers and we wouldn't be hurting as much for offense this year. I think it's pretty clear that Julien isn't going to be a long term 2nd basemen.  The Buxton debacle right now is what's clouding up Julien's immediate future IMO, especially with AK manning 1st.  Then again if Kep and Gallo are both gone next year, AK could move to a corner and make way for Julien at 1st.....that is if they trust his glove there even.

Most players get opportunities through injury or position openings when guys don't get extended, that's kind of the name of the game in baseball.  You earn a spot by taking advantage of those opportunities unless you are a mega prospect.  

Seems Buxton or Julien is going to have to play 1B next year - may sound crazy but if you can’t run routinely it’s the place you end up. Check with Donovan Solano - ask Luis Arraez - ask Ernie Banks - ask the other 1,000 guys that ended up moving from SS or OF to 1B over the course of their careers. 

[Hunter McCall]

31 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Polanco being up means Julien isnt (he's only up because Polanco was hurt). In no way would the offense be better if you pull out Julien and put in Polanco.

Sounds like both will stay and play when Polanco returns according to Rocco.

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, Hunter McCall said:

Sounds like both will stay and play when Polanco returns according to Rocco.

context....the comment I resonded to said if Polanco had been here all year, our O wouldn't be as bad.

[Hunter McCall]

11 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

context....the comment I resonded to said if Polanco had been here all year, our O wouldn't be as bad.

Sorry about that, didn’t mean to offend, just putting in a factoid

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, Hunter McCall said:

I more so meant through his current contract. Essentially taking Gordon’s spot.

 

It's a shame Gordon hasn't been healthy, but he also stunk to start the season and doesn't have anywhere near the positional flexibility that Castro has. If the call is between the two of them, Castro wins. He's been a solid bench player, his flexibility it valuable when dealing with injuries, and he's got another great ability: availability.

but is he as much of an asset beyond this season? Hard to say he is. The flexibility is great, but it might not be as necessary with some of the Twins other options coming up and players like Kirilloff and Julien and Lewis proving their worth at the plate. 

It's a tough beat for Nick Gordon who seems like a good dude and overcome a lot, but he was staggeringly bad at the plate to start the season, and while he showed signs in May of turning it around, that's still only 9 games. He's not a great defensive player at any position, and basically can only play 2B and OF (doesn't have the range or arm for SS, doesn't have the arm for 3B) and isn't great at any of them (solid in LF, acceptable in CF). Castro is better and more useful defensively. Gordon has more upside offensively, but hasn't shown it consistently.

[Jocko87]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

One thing I think makes a difference on the Castro take is this idea that "you have to have a guy on your roster who can play many positions." I read that, based on many of your comments here, to mean that you need someone who can play infield and outfield. I disagree with that in a vacuum. The Twins obsession with pinch hitting, platooning, mixing and matching every last little thing is what requires them to have someone who can do that. But if you build your team differently you don't need it.

If you have more regulars who you're willing to let hit against basically anybody, and lock down positions on a full time basis you don't need a guy who can go from CF to 3B to 2B to LF in 1 game. If you have 3 everyday outfielders I could argue you're better off with a Keirsey as a 4th OFer who's a superior OF defender and can also steal basis. 4 IF spots locked up? Kyle Farmer is all you need to backup that entire quartet. But when you have very few guys who are good enough to, or you're willing to let, lock down a position full time so you play endless matchup games then you "have to have" that guy.

While I generally agree with this as a concept, achieving it is a whole other pickle.

The Braves are the outlier, not the norm.  Every manager would like an auto lineup with 2 emergency guys on the bench. It just isn't common and I believe they would love that situation. We may be in that position in a year or two and Rocco will manage differently.

I would also argue the Castro role is just as valuable if you have that kind of roster as well. One guy that can pop in and not move others around is very useful. Flexibility is king. Of 4 bench spots 1 is a catcher so how else would you construct the bench? A RF DH type doesn't fit.

Modern rosters will most likely have this type. If I was Gordon's agent I would be trying to get him to embrace it as the best way to maximize his value. He has to play on the dirt too.

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, Jocko87 said:

While I generally agree with this as a concept, achieving it is a whole other pickle.

The Braves are the outlier, not the norm.  Every manager would like an auto lineup with 2 emergency guys on the bench. It just isn't common and I believe they would love that situation. We may be in that position in a year or two and Rocco will manage differently.

I would also argue the Castro role is just as valuable if you have that kind of roster as well. One guy that can pop in and not move others around is very useful. Flexibility is king. Of 4 bench spots 1 is a catcher so how else would you construct the bench? A RF DH type doesn't fit.

Modern rosters will most likely have this type. If I was Gordon's agent I would be trying to get him to embrace it as the best way to maximize his value. He has to play on the dirt too.

It's not that hard to get 3 everyday outfielders. Or 4 everyday infielders. You don't need to be Atlanta to have an entire unit that doesn't need to be switched around and pinch hit for constantly. Lewis, Correa, Polanco (or Julien), Kirilloff. Look at that I just took away any need to be bouncing Castro to the infield in any given game because you shouldn't be taking any of those 4 (or 5) guys out of any game, and they should be playing everyday. You have both Farmer and Solano who cover the IF without needing Castro at all.

I like Castro. I'm not suggesting he isn't useful. I'm just saying that if you build, and/or manage, your team differently it isn't necessary to bounce a guy all over the field on a regular basis. Their obsession with substitutions is what forces them to do this. All you need is either an infield or outfield that you just set and forget. That's 3 or 4 players. Shouldn't be hard to do.

[Fatbat]

4 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

Long term plans? No, not yet anyway. Depends on what he’s projected to get in arbitration… That might price himself out of the role. 

If they can pay $10M to Gallo, they can pay Castro.

[Fatbat]

I was a huge Willy Castro detractor. He simply didn't seem much different from other utility players and I figured Gordon would continue to develop and mature.  Wellllll, Castro seems to be that guy instead (at least for 2023). Some guys just bloom late and some guys burn out early. Right now, it would be a huge mistake to put Castro or any of the young studs on the bench and play the returning from injured list vets. We are witnessing a growth cycle in the youth movement in the Twins org.  This season has been painful to watch at times with vets trying to hang onto their career.  If the lineup was managed based solely on “what have you done for me lately.”  They would likely have 6-8 more wins and would be on the verge of running away with the central.  Castro is here to stay until he isn't. Don’t hold onto him with he stops being productive. The next guy up will fill his shoes just fine but that will be 2024 or 2025. Or 26-27.  Until then, enjoy the young mans effort. He is fun to watch!!