It's Time for Derek Falvey To Actually Stand Up For His Decisions, or Go Away

[purplesoldier4u]

At this point, why not recall some of the better prospects?

[karcherd]

47 minutes ago, Nshore said:

What Falvey did is certainly not unprecedented in baseball

Name one other time that a team traded 10 players at the trade deadline or even in the offseason.

[NYCTK]

1 minute ago, purplesoldier4u said:

At this point, why not recall some of the better prospects?

Don't think this is necessarily the reason, but there are benefits to having them retain prospect status with respects to the draft.

For example, if I understand correctly, if Luke Keaschall fails to exceed 130 PAs this season but then starts the year on the 26 man roster next year and stays with the big league club all season, then the Twins would receive an additional draft pick between the 1st and 2nd round? 

I could be wrong on that. But there's some (reverse) incentives like that. 

[Fire Dan Gladden]

3 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I agree with all of this, Nick, except...

The primary issue with Falvey isn't the nauseating empty corporate gibberish, avoiding anything resembling actual questions, talking only to corporate shills, or any of the other annoying aspects.

The primary problem is his job performance. Other than oversee a miraculous 2019 regular season (mostly with players he had no part in acquiring or developing), what has he accomplished? And BTW...this genius somehow managed to put that 2019 team in the position of starting Randy Dobnak in a postseason game.

2020's 60 game "season" really doesn't count in my estimation. 

Since then they're under. 500 and have made the postseason once. 

They're 0 for a million in turning position players into above average every day position players, with no real reason to believe that's gonna change any time soon. They've developed Bailey Ober and a couple relievers. 

One simple question gets to the heart of this:

Who was it that was in charge of building this team that required gutting?

One of things I love about views like this is the complete disregard for the reality that only one team wins the WS every year and if it isn't the Twins, the organization is a complete failure. This sounds more like a Yankees fan than a Twins fan. There are multiple other posts here discussing how the Twins have been better with Falvey than without, I am not going to rehash that.

Arguing about the results of the sell off right now is insane because it could take years to know the results.

You can argue about who built the team, that was gutted, but keep in mind other teams found all of the Twins players useful and wanted, not even including the 5-6 coveted players left behind.

Stop blaming Falvey for everything and take a look at ownership for once.

[Mike Sixel]

Four players is not a core...... More like a seed. 

I think 2027 is playing a part. I think they think they just made pitching really deep, in anticipation of trading Lopez and maybe Ryan. I think of it was easy to build a bullpen from scratch, that other teams wouldn't need to trade for so many all the time. 

I think anyone that isn't part of the plans beyond next year should be off the roster, like Gasper. Either embrace the retool, rebuild, strategy, or what is the plan? 

One fangraphs writer thought it was amazing the Twins traded for someone who was on the dodgers roster, and sent the 28 year old to the minors. I agree. Why trade for someone that age of he can't even beat out Kiersey?

[spanman2]

Still a member of the Country Club until new ownership shows him the door...I bet he got a little kicker from only having to eat 33 of Correas deal.  Pohlads certainly have shown their true colors.

[Nshore]

34 minutes ago, karcherd said:

Name one other time that a team traded 10 players at the trade deadline or even in the offseason.

After the 1997 season, the Marlins traded away 23 players.  But I wasn't referring to the exact number so much as the concept of a fire sale.

 

[NYCTK]

30 minutes ago, Nshore said:

After the 1997 season, the Marlins traded away 23 players.  But I wasn't referring to the exact number so much as the concept of a fire sale.

 

Heck, even the Orioles traded 9 this trade deadline. But only a few were under control, some relievers and a middle infielder I believe? 

[bunsen82]

1 hour ago, Nshore said:

What Falvey did is certainly not unprecedented in baseball.  It's the reality of the business now.  But I think it's damaging - to the reputation of the franchise, with the players, and most importantly with the fans.  Lots of empty seats in some of the Major League stadiums.  And lots of obsolete Twins Correa jerseys.

Ask Baltimore or Houston? If it pays off nobody tends to remember and the fans come back in droves. If it doesn’t work, you are definitely in a worse position. 

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I always like to listen to Levine's interview, they are insightful, interesting & intelligent. But Flavey talks a lot & says nothing, which I can't stand, or put a lot of stock in what he says. We can't go by what he says, so we have to pay attention to what he does. 

 

Actions always speak louder than words. 

[Riverbrian]

18 hours ago, chinmusic said:

Surely , a sale could have been achieved without the decimation of a franchise.

Historically, I doubt that any change of ownership has been this demoralizing.

Decimation of bullpen. I assume you meant to type bullpen. 

It happens to me. There was a time I was trying to text my wife to tell her that "chipmunks climbed her bird feeder pole". And for some reason... I typed "airplane flew into the garage". It happens. Fat fingers I guess. 

I couldn't figure out why she came rushing home after the text. 

 

[Major League Ready]

4 hours ago, bunsen82 said:

Ask Baltimore or Houston? If it pays off nobody tends to remember and the fans come back in droves. If it doesn’t work, you are definitely in a worse position. 

Or KC or Detroit.  Perhaps more to the point.  Was this group going to win a WS?  Was there a reasonably likely path to WS contender?  The chatter here was understandably negative so how does it make sense to fight so hard to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result.  I realize nobody was advocating doing the same thing but continuing on with these primary players was highly unlikely to accomplish anything significant.  The presence of Correa / Buxton and Lopez along with a lot of arbitration players negated free agency as a solution.  The only other option would have been to empty out the farm system because the kind of players we needed to win a WS was going to cost multiple 50-60FV prospects and a few 45 FVs thrown in.  If you don't get it done in 26 or 27 you're looking at a very long road back.

I am very glad they didn't empty the farm system to prop up this group.  I also was tired of watching the same mediocrity especially as it became clear the was not a path forward for this group that had a good probability of success.  So, I guess we all need to decide if we wanted to continue to watch an OK team for the next few years or option 2, empty the farm system and bet on this group in 26-27 which I think would have been utter incompetence.  Option 3 rebuild.  We can complain about the options and the failure that lead to them but I would not complain that they took decisive action.  I pray they land a couple real premium prospects for Ryan / Lopez that along with the long list of talent we have in the system go on to win the WS.  It's probably 28 before we are a serious contender but I like the odds of actually being a contender much better on this path.

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

Four players is not a core...... More like a seed. 

I think 2027 is playing a part. I think they think they just made pitching really deep, in anticipation of trading Lopez and maybe Ryan. I think of it was easy to build a bullpen from scratch, that other teams wouldn't need to trade for so many all the time. 

I think anyone that isn't part of the plans beyond next year should be off the roster, like Gasper. Either embrace the retool, rebuild, strategy, or what is the plan? 

One fangraphs writer thought it was amazing the Twins traded for someone who was on the dodgers roster, and sent the 28 year old to the minors. I agree. Why trade for someone that age of he can't even beat out Kiersey?

Outman not being in LF last night was super confusing.  If you think Outman needs adjustments....why not make them at the big league level?

[Riverbrian]

4 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

I guess not, hahaha.

But it was the most obvious question….

Of course, next too: “Well if it weren’t Rocco’s fault, do you think maybe the team you hand assembled personally wasn’t as talented as you thought and therefore the underperformance really comes down to your roster construction?”

I mean, it’s mostly one or the other or a combination of the two. 

If it's Rocco's Fault... Ultimately... that means its Falvey's fault. It's the people who hire the people. 

If Rocco isn't handling the team the way the front office designed it. He isn't going to be extended. 

The roster was not as talented as they thought.

[purplesoldier4u]

1 hour ago, bunsen82 said:

Ask Baltimore or Houston? If it pays off nobody tends to remember and the fans come back in droves. If it doesn’t work, you are definitely in a worse position. 

It pays off if the team has many high-level prospects, something the Twins lack.

[JDHack23]

There was no rebuilding this team, and why do you need Jax or Duran why you do that?  Doesn't matter if you trade four or ten, this needed to be done and I'm glad they did it.  Good closers are hard to find, relievers are not.

You can blame whomever, and be mad at the world....but this team was going nowhere regardless.  If they do finally sell the team this is what we all should have been cheering for.  A clean slate with a beyond average talented minor league system with some added players we can start fresh with. 

Free up some payroll and lets see what we have.  Will it be painful, of course, but it already was.  Plus we play in the Central, which means we can easily be competitive again in two years.

  

 

[darin617]

Falvey only did as he was told. I can't think of any owner just letting a GM make the choices on their own especially when it's a fire sale.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

... The chatter here was mostly negative and rightly so how does it make sense to fight so hard to continue to do the same thing and expect a different result.  I realize nobody was advocating doing the same thing but continuing on with these primary players...

Kudos!

Most people just type out a strawman and then knock it down.

You, though! 

You type out a strawman, identify it as a strawman, and then knock it down.

 

[IndianaTwin]

4 hours ago, NYCTK said:

Don't think this is necessarily the reason, but there are benefits to having them retain prospect status with respects to the draft.

For example, if I understand correctly, if Luke Keaschall fails to exceed 130 PAs this season but then starts the year on the 26 man roster next year and stays with the big league club all season, then the Twins would receive an additional draft pick between the 1st and 2nd round? 

I could be wrong on that. But there's some (reverse) incentives like that. 

And also have less than 45 days of service time. I think he has eight, so if he’s down until about the 25th of August, that can well be a factor.

Orioles fans will tell you that’s why Samuel Basallo is still down. They expect him up around the 20th of August. 

[1985Fan]

Falvey sounds like a politician trying to get elected by saying nothing, just talking in circles. As far as criticizing him on the team failing to win the World Series (like a Yankees fan); I don’t think that is the overall problem with his record. If the Twins were consistently competitive, in the playoffs even, most Twins fans would be happy. Instead, we watch the complete collapse last season and an utterly incompetent team this year. Add in his track record of first round picks, the poor player development record, and that is enough to say his record is enough to get him fired. 

[Major League Ready]

52 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Kudos!

Most people just type out a strawman and then knock it down.

You, though! 

You type out a strawman, identify it as a strawman, and then knock it down.

 

Or you just don't want to acknowledge that it's nuanced. and any form of tweaking this primary group of players is just a refusal to actually do something.  If you would prefer to continue walking down a path to nowhere, you won't be alone.  

[NYCTK]

22 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Or you just don't want to acknowledge that it's nuanced. and any form of tweaking this primary group of players is just a refusal to actually do something.  If you would prefer to continue walking down a path to nowhere, you won't be alone.  

After two consecutive trade deadlines (and the offseason between) of doing nothing to either improve the roster or the farm system, the organization was in rough shape.

Imagine we went back in time and Falvey had the balls to make some moves. Trading Brooks Lee for Max Scherzer? Bringing in Josh Bell for Austin Martin and Kyle Farmer? Mark Canha for Pierson Ohl? Those are all approximate comps for what they were sold for. Would the Twins Organization really miss those pieces if those additions helped the team in the postseason? 

Or, let's go back and think how this team would look if they were more proactive in selling soon to be free agents in those years. Selling Sonny Gray for two comp level prospects? Selling Max Kepler for a prospect? Michael A Taylor could bring a lottery ticket. Santana last year? Could these actions have brought in a few interesting athletes that could have supplemented who they considered their core? 

These seem like incremental things but it compounds and not doing anything for three straight windows is just sad. 

Look at the Padres. They decided they have the star power and want to repeatedly sell off their farm in order to keep pressing for the championship. They haven't gotten there yet but the fans love that team and the GM as a result. Will it be a  rough few years when the bill comes due for constantly selling the future? Maybe. But maybe not. 

Falvey went above what I thought he would, but I applaud him for finally doing something. (but he should still be fired) 

[IndianaTwin]

6 hours ago, NYCTK said:

Don't think this is necessarily the reason, but there are benefits to having them retain prospect status with respects to the draft.

For example, if I understand correctly, if Luke Keaschall fails to exceed 130 PAs this season but then starts the year on the 26 man roster next year and stays with the big league club all season, then the Twins would receive an additional draft pick between the 1st and 2nd round? 

I could be wrong on that. But there's some (reverse) incentives like that. 

Also, in addition to not having the service time, the Twins would only get the extra pick if Keaschall was to win the Rookie of the Year or be in the top three in MVP voting before reaching arbitration. 

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, NYCTK said:

Look at the Padres. They decided they have the star power and want to repeatedly sell off their farm in order to keep pressing for the championship. They haven't gotten there yet but the fans love that team and the GM as a result. Will it be a  rough few years when the bill comes due for constantly selling the future? Maybe. But maybe not. 

How much better would they be today with Wood / Abrahams and Gore?   They would have their production which is huge plus they would have an extra $24M they would not be paying Bogaerts.  While it's $25M a year now for a little less production, what will it look like between the ages of 35-40.   

[NYCTK]

6 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

How much better would they be today with Wood / Abrahams and Gore?   They would have their production which is huge plus they would have an extra $24M they would not be paying Bogaerts.  While it's $25M a year now for a little less production, what will it look like between the ages of 35-40.   

That's a good question, but completely besides the point. 

The point is the fans don't care about those 'what could have beens' if the organization keeps doing everything they can to win when they have the chance. Those three turned into Soto who turned into Michael King (while hurt has been really strong). If the Padres won the world series this year do you think the fans would look back and regret the GMs hyper active mentality? 

Worrying about what propsects MIGHT become is how you become a timid front office that languishes in mediocrity. 

[S Bart]

WAY TO GO DEREK...LOSE SOME MORE FANS!!!!

FanSided's Christopher Kline recently predicted the Twins would eventually cut ties with Ryan in an offseason blockbuster trade after holding onto him at the trade deadline.

"Minnesota is navigating over $400 million in debt and the potential sale of the team," Kline wrote. "Ryan is controllable through 2027 at a bargain price, but there's no way the Twins are ready to pay him in a couple years. I don't care who the new owners are.

"As such, we should expect Minnesota to circle back to trade talks for Ryan next offseason, when the market expands and more teams think they have what it takes to contend. The 29-year-old has a 2.82 ERA and 0.92 WHIP with 137 strikeouts in 121.1 innings this season. He's a stud. Minnesota can get a very nice return package when the time comes."

Ryan will have a lot of value in the offseason, too.

From the Twins' perspective, it would make sense to trade him. Two weeks ago, it wouldn't have made sense to trade him, but after blowing up the roster at the trade deadline, holding onto the star righty doesn't make much sense.

[Historyking88]

You defended this front office right up to the deadline and acted oblivious to the fact that they are a bad baseball team and now you think that gives you the right to finally criticize the front office and ownership? I don’t think so. The only thing you should be allowed to do is find a new narrative because you’ve done nothing but defend the powers that be. Maybe consider more of that human element going forward instead of just focusing on analytics most of the time. In the end the team will be sold and Falvey will be fired. 

[Dave Borton]

18 hours ago, Eris said:

Falvey deserves to be held accountable for putting this team together in the first place.   Blowing it up was only a natural outcome of the failure to build a decent team. 

Thank you. This summarizes my feelings towards a CBO/GM who had 9 years to build a winner. He didn't yet remained around to blow up a yacht that failed to sail.

Good thing he doesn't live in North Korea.

[old nurse]

20 hours ago, Glorybound said:

Not necessarily but you didn’t get full value for a long term asset. Stupid is as stupid does.

You can’t know if they got full value for a long time. What becomes of a trade may take a  few ears for certainty. Joe Ryan, Jhoan Duran and Jorge Alcala are the perfect examples of that. You should be careful on using your second line

[Bodie]

in re: headline 

He can do both... but the second is all that matters.