Rays 9, Twins 4: From Opener to Close, Twins Beaten Badly

[Doctor Wu]

10 hours ago, Althebum82 said:

Ouch.  Just ouch. 

Anyone still looking to Varland as our bullpen savior?  

Well, there WAS that one clean inning. Maybe the bullpen is actually the best place to use him. 

[TwinsDr2021]

8 hours ago, USAFChief said:

This is completely incorrect.

The runner from first was off with the pitch--as I said in my first post--but there was time to get the force at 2nd. Not even a question. 

Here's the play, stop-actioned below. Lewis has the ball in his glove at this point:

 

Can you at least admit the infield was NOT playing in? They were HOPING for a DP. Why throw home? 

A team can just throw bodies at any position willy-nilly, with zero regard for how they play there, but there will be consequences.  Lewis pretty clearly doesn't know what he's doing. Hell, he broke for second on a hit to right on the first. WTH?

 

There was ZERO chance of getting the guy at second, there is no way he could have flipped the ball there faster than the runner, and just transferring it from his glove to his throwing hand would have taken too long. In live action by the time he is throwing home the guy is basically standing on second. The play at the plate was going to be bang bang even with a great throw and catch.

If you are playing midway way double play depth, you throw the ball to first and tip your hat to the Rays for running on the play.

My question is I thought it was illegal or against the rules of baseball for a left handed batter to bunt to third with a the shift on?

[TwinsDr2021]

2 hours ago, Rik19753 said:

I don't see how you look at that picture and fault Royce for not going to 2nd. That's a bang bang play at best and an easy safe call at worst.

I was actually impressed that he chose not to turn the DP even though that was probably his first instinct given his fielding position.

The throw was really bad but the decision making was spot-on IMO.

The throw wasn't that bad, it wasn't perfect but after watching Lee's and Julien's throw (a few games ago) it had to be low, it was going to be bang bang. The play was to first!

[Riverbrian]

11 hours ago, USAFChief said:

 ,Ben Rortvedt delivered a grounder to Lewis, again with the infield drawn in, and he made the pick but blew the throw home, allowing Carlson to score. Both runners advanced

 

The Twins didnt have the infield drawn in. They were, at most, halfway...allowing for a possible DP. Lewis fielded that grounder about halfway onto the dirt, BEHIND the baserunners path.

Even with the runner off from first, it was a tailor made DP ball, catcher running, fielded cleanly, and the Twins would have been out of the inning, down 3-0 even with the previous hijinks...had Lewis simply initiated the DP.

But of course Lewis has no experience at 2nd. Mistake throw home, gets nobody, tragedy unfolds.

Pretty tired of anybody can play anywhere.

Watch it again.

The Runner was off with the pitch... The runner had passed in front of Royce before Lewis had fielded the ball. By the time Royce gets to his feet and in throwing position the runner is almost at 2nd base. Ryne Sandberg makes the throw home based on the runner passing in front of him alone. 

The throw home itself... it wasn't that bad. It may have short hopped skipped but it was nearly perfect for a tag with minimal effort. Right where you want the ball. 

If I'm Vazquez... I'm telling Royce... My Bad. 

There was so much crap that happened that inning. A lot of runs and it wasn't like they were hitting rockets off of Louie. Castro pulling up, Varland wild pickoff attempt, The Lee bobble, a bunt single to exploit the shift. The ball getting past Vazquez.

We had plenty of chances to avoid 8 getting hung up on board. 

 

 

 

 

[Doctor Gast]

10 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

One bad inning , ONE BAD INNING ...

did I say one bad inning ...

Twins need to play flawless baseball or these are the results we can expect ...

It's hard to play flawless ball with rookies in general, rookies & players learning a new position not to mention the normal grind; that goes with the territory. Varland was sailing through 2 innings where I thought he could make it to the 6th. Rookie Varland's time at SP has been shaky (although technically this wasn't a start). TB is great at playing fundamental baseball, which means a good base running game. Besides moving up runners, it shakes up the pitcher (which Twins are not good at). This tactic paid off against Varland, turning a smooth outing into a disaster. It was a disappointing game which I hope Varland can grow from.

As long as Correa & Buxton are out of the lineup, I'm afraid we will have more of these games, friend.

[tony&rodney]

Can't get my head around a team that is built solely to hit the ball with very little attention paid to defensive acumen or experience and zero interest in either running or stopping the running game. Falvey put together the roster to mash opposing pitchers. Yet, the Twins have continually played the infield in to cut down runners at home, even early in games, and had less than stellar results with that strategy. Extra outs, particularly combined with the below average defense that allows balls to creep through the infield and fly balls to drop, will inevitably result in big innings. Meanwhile the Twins are struggling to hit with runners in scoring position.

Perhaps Falvey and company might consider where to focus strategy during their November meetings.

[JD-TWINS]

10 hours ago, BH67 said:

For the first time I'm concerned that the 2024 Twins will miss the postseason.

Two years ago I avoided watching the Twins in September because a malaise had rooted in the quality of their play that was too much to overcome. Last September, just the opposite. Same manager. Same team, mostly.

I've led successful teams in my work, which requires a proactive team effort toward a specific destination. My visible focus is essential to motivate others to take ownership of it. My impression is that Rocco Baldelli is a laissez-faire skipper who trusts that the team vibe on its own will lead to success. Great approach when all is well, and a big mess when slumps deepen. I'm a Rocco fan, but something has to jolt everyone when things get stuck. That's a place for a vintage year Gary Gaetti, and these Twins absent Carlos Correa appear to lack such a person.

Happy to read more knowledgeable explanations, even in sharp disagreement.

The good news is the Mariners - Red Sox - Tigers are all at the same record of 70-70. They’re all 6 games back in the loss column with 23 games left for TWINS.

The malaise later in ‘22 mostly stemmed from having very few front line guys able to play due to injury. The OF was hardly AAA level.

I agree, Baldelli doesn’t seem to be much of a vocal motivator but that can be OK as excitable, vocal guys leading a day in day out grind for 6 months could wear thin over time. Correa not being with the Team on the road may create a bit of a void on the leadership front………they just stunk over a 10 game stretch at home though with him in the mix every day. With the issues they’ve had with both rotation and Pen along with line-up guys being hurt routinely, they have probably just regressed back to early expectations. They started 7-13 and are now 11 games over .500 ……. after reaching 17 games over .500 couple weeks ago. If they go 12-11 over what’s remaining they win the 87 games many predicted prior to season starting.

[Doctor Gast]

I looked at that so-called "errant throw" by Varland. It looked like a perfectly good throw, Thrown where the runner could be picked off & a good 1Bman should handle. IMO it was on Santana.

[Dave Borton]

11 hours ago, BH67 said:

...My impression is that Rocco Baldelli is a laissez-faire skipper who trusts that the team vibe on its own will lead to success. Great approach when all is well, and a big mess when slumps deepen. I'm a Rocco fan...

Happy to read more knowledgeable explanations, even in sharp disagreement.

Not a Rocco fan nor more knowledgeable. But his seeming form of leadership is to plow through data sheets and once again play chess with the lineup.

Bah.

[saviking]

Now can we move Varland to the pen

[bean5302]

I seem to constantly see comments from people who are advocates for stronger defense praising Carlos Santana and Christian Vazquez. Two balls bounced off the glove of Vazquez this game. A pick off bounces off the glove of Santana. All of them are "throwing errors." I guarantee you those are all "fielding errors" if the ball came off a bat and not a throwing hand. It seems to be my "eye test" which has me feeling like Santana and Vazquez get the benefit of not needing to catch balls that hit their gloves, and especially for Santana, he'll never come off 1B to prevent a ball from sailing wide. He lets the throws sail wide because it doesn't impact his defensive numbers, and the runner advances to 2B on the "throwing error." Vazquez was trying to catch runners stealing 2nd when a base runner was on 3rd seemingly time and again only to allow runs to score.

I really don't see the elite defense other people do.

[LA Vikes Fan]

12 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

He retired 6 straight when he entered - that works. 96-99mph with the fastball. I have never thought he has the attention span nor patience to be a good starter. He walks around the mound like he needs a valium to calm down. Things go south a bit and his concentration/command goes out the window. He’s effectively got a 2 pitch mix and that doesn’t play after a few batters. I realize he wasn’t great in the 4th as an understatement but he got zero defensive help as well! I still think he’s good for 3-7 batters in a relief role (25-30 pitches).

You’re right, ouch!

I think this is looking more and more accurate. Varland simply doesn't appear to have the consistency or temperament to be a starter at this point in his career. More importantly, it doesn't look like that's changing or improving over time. Conversely, he looks outstanding in  1 or 2 inning appearances. Time to put him in the bullpen for the rest of the season. If we have another injury in the rotation, we are just going to have to go to spot starts or bullpen games once a turn. He can help the bullpen but he's killing the rotation. 

[hitterscount]

11 hours ago, USAFChief said:

 ,Ben Rortvedt delivered a grounder to Lewis, again with the infield drawn in, and he made the pick but blew the throw home, allowing Carlson to score. Both runners advanced

 

The Twins didnt have the infield drawn in. They were, at most, halfway...allowing for a possible DP. Lewis fielded that grounder about halfway onto the dirt, BEHIND the baserunners path.

Even with the runner off from first, it was a tailor made DP ball, catcher running, fielded cleanly, and the Twins would have been out of the inning, down 3-0 even with the previous hijinks...had Lewis simply initiated the DP.

But of course Lewis has no experience at 2nd. Mistake throw home, gets nobody, tragedy unfolds.

Pretty tired of anybody can play anywhere.

When many of us talk about fundamental baseball the premise is playing solid defense, an awareness off opposing base runners and knowing where the ball needs to go to minimize runs, plate discipline to make opposing pitchers earn their outs, advancing runners and timely hitting or driving in runs from 3rd with less than two outs, smart base running, some team speed,etc..

None of the above require superstar talent, it requires effort and a team first philosophy, and most importantly a manager that can sell it and implement. Many of the losses in the past 2-3 weeks could have gone the other way with just a little solid fundamental baseball.

 

[1985Fan]

To refute the Twins philosophy of players playing multiple positions being the gold standard, I think it’s worth pointing out Castros play in last nights game. He is not a good center fielder. The missed catch in CF shows that he can wear a CF glove and be put in the position, but he is not a good outfielder. That catch should have been made. Castros indecision, probably due to his lack of outfield instincts, caused him to hesitate at the moment he needed to commit to the catch. Out not made, giving the extra out to opposition. Good defense helps good pitching. 
Later, he made the catch in medium/shallow CF, but wasn’t able to prevent the runner from advancing to third. A good CF with a good arm would have prevented the runner from advancing. The runner did not hesitate to tag and run which tells me that scouting report is saying Castro has a weak arm and can be run on easily. His arm doesn’t work in CF. 

 I’m not trying to pick on Castro, but now the Twins are trying to force Lewis into that mold and I think it is a big mistake. Playing multiple positions is not easy and is not for everyone. Very few have been able to it and do it well. Rocco/ Twins want all of their players to move around and it hurts the defense. The good/great defenders the Twins have (Buxton, Correa)DO NOT play multiple positions. They learn one position well and excel at it. 
 

 

[chpettit19]

12 hours ago, USAFChief said:

This is completely incorrect.

The runner from first was off with the pitch--as I said in my first post--but there was time to get the force at 2nd. Not even a question. 

Here's the play, stop-actioned below. Lewis has the ball in his glove at this point:

 

Can you at least admit the infield was NOT playing in? They were HOPING for a DP. Why throw home? 

A team can just throw bodies at any position willy-nilly, with zero regard for how they play there, but there will be consequences.  Lewis pretty clearly doesn't know what he's doing. Hell, he broke for second on a hit to right on the first. WTH?

 

By the time Royce squares his shoulders to throw to 2nd there that runner is already there. Royce had no shot at him at 2B. Caballero has a 77th percentile sprint speed and is already in a dead sprint. That isn't you or me running to 2B. 

Here's 3 more screen shots of him standing, being ready to throw, and starting his throw home. Obviously the throwing motion to 2B is going to be a little quicker, but Caballero is at 2B before he even lets go of the ball (while slowing down because Lee clearly isn't getting the throw so he doesn't slide). Not to even mention the fact that he'd be throwing around Caballero. So he has a runner who's going to beat the throw to 2B and is in the line of the throw. He has no shot whatsoever at getting Caballero at 2B. None. Royce made the right play. And if Vazquez catches that throw (or the one from Lee) that guy is toast at the plate. 

[Sjoski]

13 hours ago, S Bart said:

There is so much that makes no sense to me.

- Placing Lewis at 2nd base in September.

- Constant platooning/ moving the chess pieces. I have seen the Twins play in four different stadiums this year, and it is so very visible to me that other teams don't do it to that degree. 

- The lack of TV deal has decreased the fan base. I am out of state but saw the Twins in June in Minneapolis. A veteran Target Field usher told me how he wasn't seeing "the frequent attendees." Many expressed to him how the TV deal mishap made them unattached. 

- The owner makes an announcement that they will not spend money prior to the season. Well, when you tell your fans that you will not improve the team and fail to have a TV deal, attendance suffers. 

The arbitration eligible players this offseason include Castro, Ryan, Jax and a couple of other key players. Will the Twins trade rather than spend money?

 

 

Agree with it all, just added one other reason I think is a factor.

-- For multiple reasons I don't feel safe in downtown Mpls anymore. Haven't set foot in it since 2020.
I use to attend 10-12 games a year. Last game was in 2019.

2019: The year of the Bomba Squad.

2019: The year Rocco wins manager of the year for filling out a lineup card.

[tony&rodney]

17 minutes ago, Sjoski said:

-- For multiple reasons I don't feel safe in downtown Mpls anymore. Haven't set foot in it since 2020.
I use to attend 10-12 games a year. Last game was in 2019.

????

Safe or you just don't want to go to games? Where are you safe?

I'm in my 70s and walk around The Loop area after a game. Good restaurants too. It is as safe as anywhere else in Minneapolis.

If you were safe in 2019, you are safer in 2024.

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

I really don't see the elite defense other people do.

Santana and Vazquez are the two Twins who can play average to average plus defense. I don't think of either as elite. 

The Twins need Correa at shortstop and Buxton in centerfield. This allows Castro to be a second baseman or better yet a utility player and Lewis can DH more often until such time as he can learn a position. It is somewhat fair to say that the Twins have not done Royce any favors in his preparation for a defensive position.

[Jeff K]

15 hours ago, Althebum82 said:

Ouch.  Just ouch. 

Anyone still looking to Varland as our bullpen savior?  

Maybe not a savior, but his first two innings went well.  He just can't be asked for more than that.  PLEASE!

[Swing Batter-Batter]

Let's see. 5-11 in the last 16 games. Well, it doesn't look like we can hit, field, throw, run or catch very well At that point, it doesn't really matter what the pitching does.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

53 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

By the time Royce squares his shoulders to throw to 2nd there that runner is already there. Royce had no shot at him at 2B. Caballero has a 77th percentile sprint speed and is already in a dead sprint. That isn't you or me running to 2B. 

Here's 3 more screen shots of him standing, being ready to throw, and starting his throw home. Obviously the throwing motion to 2B is going to be a little quicker, but Caballero is at 2B before he even lets go of the ball (while slowing down because Lee clearly isn't getting the throw so he doesn't slide). Not to even mention the fact that he'd be throwing around Caballero. So he has a runner who's going to beat the throw to 2B and is in the line of the throw. He has no shot whatsoever at getting Caballero at 2B. None. Royce made the right play. And if Vazquez catches that throw (or the one from Lee) that guy is toast at the plate. 

I have to disagree. I think a sharp sideways toss to second to the glove side, gets the runner and starts the dp. Especially if the runner is pulling up at second like he does there. Thrown balls travel faster than baserunners. 

The sad thing is if Vázquez fields the throw and applies the tag, he probably has time to throw to first and complete the double play anyway. 

[RpR]

1 hour ago, Sjoski said:

-- For multiple reasons I don't feel safe in downtown Mpls anymore. Haven't set foot in it since 2020.
I use to attend 10-12 games a year. Last game was in 2019.

 

I much prefer thr downtown from 30 years ago, when I was there often.

Now all glitz, no soul.

[RpR]

So many wanted rhe youngins up , well they are up.

OK bats, lousy fielding skills, which there numbers at Baseball Ref. show is a continuation of the minor league skills.

[Larry Janisewski]

15 hours ago, knothole61 said:

Another tough loss; but the hope I take from this one is that Varland looked good for two innings before the inevitable implosion. For whatever reasons, he really can't be trusted in the long run, but for an inning or maybe two, I think the Twins have found a shiny new bullpen piece--a sixth or seventh inning Mr. Clean?

 

I've got a great idea: Varland to the bullpen. 

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I have to disagree. I think a sharp sideways toss to second to the glove side, gets the runner and starts the dp. Especially if the runner is pulling up at second like he does there. Thrown balls travel faster than baserunners. 

The sad thing is if Vázquez fields the throw and applies the tag, he probably has time to throw to first and complete the double play anyway. 

He pulls up at 2nd because he's reacting to Lee clearly not getting the throw. Here's the replay. The best infielders in baseball maybe attempt to make that throw, but Lewis is by no means amongst the best infielders in baseball, and that was by no means an obvious out at 2B. Lewis not having very soft or quick hands has nothing to do with him not playing 2B much before. He doesn't have the hands to make that play. It's why he's been questioned as a fielder his whole career. He doesn't have good hands. 

Chief has called that a "tailor made DP ball" and said that it's "not even a question" he could've gotten him at second. We must be watching different plays because watching that in real time Gimenez in Cleveland may be the only 2B in baseball right now who has the hands to catch that and get a throw off around a runner to a moving SS at 2B. The runner would've been into his slide before Royce released the throw. Obviously thrown balls travel faster than baserunners, but watching that replay you really think even an average major league second baseman is making that play? You think it's "tailor made" and there's "not even a question" he could make the throw over/around a guy who's into his slide before he even throws the ball? I don't.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

31 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

He pulls up at 2nd because he's reacting to Lee clearly not getting the throw. Here's the replay. The best infielders in baseball maybe attempt to make that throw, but Lewis is by no means amongst the best infielders in baseball, and that was by no means an obvious out at 2B. Lewis not having very soft or quick hands has nothing to do with him not playing 2B much before. He doesn't have the hands to make that play. It's why he's been questioned as a fielder his whole career. He doesn't have good hands. 

Chief has called that a "tailor made DP ball" and said that it's "not even a question" he could've gotten him at second. We must be watching different plays because watching that in real time Gimenez in Cleveland may be the only 2B in baseball right now who has the hands to catch that and get a throw off around a runner to a moving SS at 2B. The runner would've been into his slide before Royce released the throw. Obviously thrown balls travel faster than baserunners, but watching that replay you really think even an average major league second baseman is making that play? You think it's "tailor made" and there's "not even a question" he could make the throw over/around a guy who's into his slide before he even throws the ball? I don't.

I think Royce would have gotten him at second, yes. I am fine disagreeing! It would have been a close play. Lots of plays are. I think you are right, that the runner slides in harder if Lee reacts, instead of pulling up. 

Instead of a throw, it needed to be a sideways pitch. I tried to find a gif but couldn’t, so here’s a video. Lewis was a little further away than Panik here but the pitch in this position saves time instead of squaring up to throw. 

 

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

I think Royce would have gotten him at second, yes. I am fine disagreeing! It would have been a close play. Lots of plays are. I think you are right, that the runner slides in harder if Lee reacts, instead of pulling up. 

Instead of a throw, it needed to be a sideways pitch. I tried to find a gif but couldn’t, so here’s a video. Lewis was a little further away than Panik here but the pitch in this position saves time instead of squaring up to throw. 

 

Yeah, just going to have to agree to strongly disagree here. Lewis is 40 feet away from the bag when he catches it on a back hand. These plays aren't similar at all. Lewis throwing the ball would've been quicker than pitching it because he was already on his back hand. And pitching it 40 feet never would've gotten anywhere close to getting that runner. We'll just have to agree to disagree.