Vazquez

[nicksaviking]

18 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Lot's of talk about Vazquez bat, but I wonder how much of his value is tied into helping Jeffers improve defensively and in general, helping the pitching staff, helping to game plan on a nightly basis.  His leadership may be playing a huge role in Jeffers and staff development...

Ryan Jeffers is 27-years-old, pretty sure he should be considered a 'leader' at this point.

This team's insistence on stuffing the roster with 'leadership' players keeps costing them wins because by and large, these guys are not good on the field. I don't get it, why do you need 9-10 'leaders' to teach 3-4 guys who are in their early to mid 20s? And where are the coaches in all of this? That is a completely inefficient and backwards educational model. Do the military, school systems and labor industry have it all wrong and the Twins have it right? Doubtful.

[bean5302]

I can't fathom the people defending Vazquez as having value to an MLB club in here.

There are 30 catchers in MLB with 100 plate appearances this year. The median catcher has +0.3 WAR defensive value. Christian Vazquez is +0.5 WAR, on pace for about +1.6 WAR on the season, but if he was an every day player we could double that to 3.2 WAR, of that 2.0 WAR from his excellent defense and the rest coming from just playing catcher. His OPS, an utterly miserable .410. (Yes, that's his OPS) is the worst of any MLB player with 100 plate appearances this year. Literally, dead last worst by .030 points, mind you. An OPS of .690 is around league average right now. 

To sum it up across a full season as a qualified player:
Vazquez +2.0 WAR defense.
Vazquez (3.5) WAR offense.

Gary Sanchez vs. Christian Vazquez last year and this year, including Sanchez's rough defense and Vazquez's lauded defense.
1.7 WAR vs. 0.9 WAR
0.4 WAR vs. (0.4) WAR

[jorgenswest]

I can’t support it but I do believe that there are aspects to a catcher’s defense that are either poorly measured or not measured at all. There have been too many poor hitting catchers getting significant playing time on successful teams.

The money is already committed and they can’t get it back. I don’t think they can inexpensively replace Vázquez with a catcher that would be close to his value to the team. I acknowledge that I make that statement without any ability to support it with metrics.

[stringer bell]

I guess I’m not worried that Vázquez could get injured and there would be no one to replace him. There always seems to be at least a half dozen glove-first catchers available for minimal pay or even major league minimum. I’d actually like to see a left handed hitting catcher share the job with Jeffers, if he was as good or better of a receiver than #27. 

[jmlease1]

28 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Ryan Jeffers is 27-years-old, pretty sure he should be considered a 'leader' at this point.

This team's insistence on stuffing the roster with 'leadership' players keeps costing them wins because by and large, these guys are not good on the field. I don't get it, why do you need 9-10 'leaders' to teach 3-4 guys who are in their early to mid 20s? And where are the coaches in all of this? That is a completely inefficient and backwards educational model. Do the military, school systems and labor industry have it all wrong and the Twins have it right? Doubtful.

I really don't think "leadership" is why we made the veteran signings we did; it's a value-added piece, sort of like a bonus, and part of the Twins trending towards a "no a$$holes" approach after the Josh Donaldson Experience. Vazquez was signed to be a quality defensive catcher that they thought would be ok at the plate. (they've been half right?) Santana was signed to be a quality defender at 1B who could hit LHP and be decent against RHP (they've been 1/3 right). Farmer was acquired to be the SS before Correa came on board, and was shifted to be the backup SS and more of a utility role to hit LHP and provide quality defense at multiple positions (worked great last season, not so much on the hitting side this year). All were expected to be good in the clubhouse...and I think they have been.

Margot was brought in to be a 4th OF who could handle CF and hit LHP. (he's hit LHP a little, but overall this one is 0-3) I don't think he was brought in for "leadership".

but who are the 9-10 guys that are here as "leadership" players rather than for what they could do on the field? Pablo Lopez was brought in to be a front-line starter. That he's a leader of the pitching staff is value-added, not a primary reason. Correa was brought in to be a great SS who could both hit and defend, something we haven't gotten here in a gazillion years. His leadership is again, a bonus and a reason why they were comfortable with such a long deal...but his production is why they wanted him. None of the relievers they've brought in were for "leadership", but because they thought they could fill a role. Paddack was acquired to be a rotation guy, not a "leader".

The biggest issue with this may be the fact that when a veteran isn't performing well the Twins struggle (like most teams, really) with when to move on. Part of this is sunk-cost fallacy, part of this is knowing that how a team treats its veterans can matter when free agency rolls around, part of it is asset control (most veterans are gone if they get designated for assignment), and part of it is budget limitations to fill the vacancy.

Vazquez is a tough nut because of the contract. Twins aren't going to want to just eat the salary, and he is still quality defensively which matters more at catcher than almost anywhere (especially since so many catcher stink at the plate these days). I think it's going to be nigh-impossible to move him now without giving up a prospect we don't want to lose or eating most of that salary. He really has been awful at the plate, like historically bad. He'd need several weeks like his last one in order for anyone to even want him right now...and if he has several weeks like this then the Twins are going to talk themselves into him being ok.

This really is where having a big payroll helps: you can buy out your mistakes. And Vazquez has been a mistake, even if he's helped the pitching staff more than is currently measured.

[Muppet]

Vázquez' bat has contributed in a big way to 2 wins in the past 5 games.  Plus his throwing out a base stealer at 2nd may have been THE winning play of yesterday's game. 

Lately the 5 worst hitters on the team have been more than pulling their weight. Kirilloff HRs have won a couple of games. Farmer, Margot, Vazquez, Kirilloff, and Julien have all been putting it together lately.  

Baseball is a streaky sport. Some people really heat up after the springtime is over. It is almost June. Let's let these guys keep improving and see if they are still terrible by the all star break before we start figuring out who to DFA. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, IndianaTwin said:

Jeffers has played in all but six games and is third on the team in plate appearances. Realistically, catching Jeffers more wouldn't get him the lineup more. He would just DH less. Said another way, Vazquez isn't costing Jeffers at bats; he's costing at bats to someone else in the lineup as the DH.

And frankly, the "someone else" crew hasn't hit well. The DH tOPS+ is 85, meaning that they have hit 15 percent worse than the team as a whole. For context, the only position that has been weaker is 2B (at 82). Then, consider that more than one-third of the DH at bats have gone to Jeffers, and it suggests that the remaining DHs have been significantly worse than that figure. Not Vazquez-level worse, but with not nearly as large of a discrepancy as one might think. 

In fact, given the toll that catching takes, one wonders if Jeffers might actually have fewer total at bats if a bigger percentage of them came at catcher.

It will be interesting to see if there is some shift in the catching ratio, with Larnach seeming to be coming on a bit as a DH and if Lewis (hoped for) leads to more DH time for Miranda. If those guys hit well as DH, maybe there's more reason to have Jeffers catch a bit more, since his DH at bats are needed quite as much.  

Rocco plays the long game during the regular season. If part of balancing the role and giving lots of DH time to Jeffers is to keep his legs a bit fresher so he can catch a little more down the stretch, that's helpful as well. 

Vazquez wrc+ is 15...... Meaning he's twenty percent as good as the guys you point out....15 after a gift double last night. He'd have to hit five times better to be below average for a catcher

[RpR]

35 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

I guess I’m not worried that Vázquez could get injured and there would be no one to replace him. There always seems to be at least a half dozen glove-first catchers available for minimal pay or even major league minimum. I’d actually like to see a left handed hitting catcher share the job with Jeffers, if he was as good or better of a receiver than #27. 

Name a couple, please.

[Road trip]

19 minutes ago, RpR said:

Name a couple, please.

Lots of borderline AAA/MLB catchers out there for backup duty.  Sandy Leon just signed a deal with the Royals.  Grandal to the Pirates recently.  Curt Casali to the Giants a couple of weeks ago.  Jorge Alfaro has an opt-out on June 1 with the Red Sox.  Mike Zunino retired in March after nobody picked him up... bet he'd welcome a call.

Are any of them better than Vazquez?  Likely not.  But they will all play for close to MLB minimum.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

Ryan Jeffers is 27-years-old, pretty sure he should be considered a 'leader' at this point.

This team's insistence on stuffing the roster with 'leadership' players keeps costing them wins because by and large, these guys are not good on the field. I don't get it, why do you need 9-10 'leaders' to teach 3-4 guys who are in their early to mid 20s? And where are the coaches in all of this? That is a completely inefficient and backwards educational model. Do the military, school systems and labor industry have it all wrong and the Twins have it right? Doubtful.

Age has absolutely nothing to leadership skills and you know that.  I am surprised you used that as an argument.  To your argument about how many "leaders" are needed, effective leadership models have multiple levels of management with low player/coach or management/staff ratios.  This is one of the reasons that the school system is failing is because you have 30/1 student/teacher ratios.  On sports teams you have positional coaches because each position has different needs, wants, and responsibilities.  This is why EVERY SPORTS TEAM has a huge coaching staff.  Please check out NBA and NFL coach/player ratios for proof of that. 

Leadership comes in many forms and roles.  Vocal, lead-by-example, situational... Peers have a completely different impact than coaches.  You need to have multiple "clubhouse" guys to serve in those roles.

Since Vasquez was acquired, Jeffers defense has consistently improved.  Can you say with any certainty that Vasquez had no impact on that, considering all of the coaches could not improve him prior?

I don't know how the Twins view Vasquez.  Considering the general overall quality of our catchers, there are probably things that are working that we as the general public do not know about.

[Craig Arko]

1 hour ago, stringer bell said:

I guess I’m not worried that Vázquez could get injured and there would be no one to replace him. There always seems to be at least a half dozen glove-first catchers available for minimal pay or even major league minimum. I’d actually like to see a left handed hitting catcher share the job with Jeffers, if he was as good or better of a receiver than #27. 

Basically, a Jason Castro clone would be ideal.

[RpR]

28 minutes ago, Road trip said:

Lots of borderline AAA/MLB catchers out there for backup duty.  Sandy Leon just signed a deal with the Royals.  Grandal to the Pirates recently.  Curt Casali to the Giants a couple of weeks ago.  Jorge Alfaro has an opt-out on June 1 with the Red Sox.  Mike Zunino retired in March after nobody picked him up... bet he'd welcome a call.

Are any of them better than Vazquez?  Likely not.  But they will all play for close to MLB minimum.

Of all those you listed, only Casali would not be a gaping hole in he defense, and most are  at best the same as Vazquez is this year with a bat.

Twins could not afford Zunino, and beyond Casali, the rest are only good for increasing butt muscle strength as the coaches will be pinching them continually when they are in the game.

It would have been nice if some how they could have put Gary Sanchez on the team again.

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

Basically, a Jason Castro clone would be ideal.

Hard to believe I'd be pining for those days!

[IndianaTwin]

3 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

I don’t think he is catching MORE games. When have they not strictly alternated games this year? If he does catch more often than “he’s deserving” it’s so Jeffers can/could DH. Jeffers can’t catch and DH……. he also can’t play every day....

In terms of who starts, it's very much been an alternating of games, with a couple of exceptions that give Vazquez a 29-25 edge in starts: 

• April 23-24. Not sure if there was a logical reason, though it was in the midst of a stretch with 13 straight games.
• April 28-29. Later in the same stretch. That it was soon after the first time and that Jeffers DHed on the 24th, 28th and 29th makes me wonder if Jeffers was dinged up a bit, but I don't know that.
• May 12 and 14. So back-to-back games for Vazquez, but not back-to-back days.
• May 20-21. 

And now that I look at it closer, in all four situations, the second day was facing a lefty and Rocco was going with an entirely right-handed lineup. To do that, you have play both Vazquez and Jeffers, so he went with the stronger defender behind the plate. Jeffers has not started behind the plate against a left-handed pitcher since April 15. 

 

 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

I'm going to duck after posting this but Vazquez brings intangibles and leadership. His stats are what they are. But we don't know the kind of value he might bring behind the scenes and how important he is for the pitching staff and some of the younger players on the roster. It is fair to say that those intangibles might not justify his salary especially if the Twins are again facing a payroll crunch - but...I would think twice before dumping him.

[stringer bell]

12 minutes ago, RpR said:

Name a couple, please.

In addition to to those listed by road trip, Austin Wynns, Austin Nola, Brett Sullivan, Carlos Pérez, Chad Wallace, Anthony Bemboon, Tomás Nido, Omar Naráez, Luke Malle, Tyler Heineken and Tucker Barnhart are all guys over 29 who played in the majors as recently as last year and weren’t starters. I suppose many are unavailable, but I bet most are. Personally, I can’t abide by the absolute judgment s of defense made by the person I’m responding to. I’ll leave it at that. 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

Not necessarily an apples to apples comparison, but...

After the Twins won the WS in 1991, they dumped Al Newman for Donnie Hill and gave Pedro Munoz a full-time spot allowing Dan Gladden to leave in free agency.

Donnie Hill was a train wreck and didn't even last half a season. Munoz, statistically, was fine but the Twins sorely missed Gladden in the clubhouse. Ditto for Newman.

Easy to look at the back of the baseball card and say this guy needs to go, but baseball is a 6 month marathon and the mental part is sometimes just as important as the on-field production. 

Understood that the Twins' financial situation may preclude them from keeping Vazquez beyond this year, but I wouldn't necessarily be thrilled to see him go.

[Mike Sixel]

4 minutes ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

I'm going to duck after posting this but Vazquez brings intangibles and leadership. His stats are what they are. But we don't know the kind of value he might bring behind the scenes and how important he is for the pitching staff and some of the younger players on the roster. It is fair to say that those intangibles might not justify his salary especially if the Twins are again facing a payroll crunch - but...I would think twice before dumping him.

What younger players? Julien? Miranda? Everyone else has 2+ years MLB experience. They also have Santana, Buxton, CC to mentor people. Really, how many leaders do you need?

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

Just now, Mike Sixel said:

What younger players? Julien? Miranda? Everyone else has 2+ years MLB experience. They also have Santana, Buxton, CC to mentor people. Really, how many leaders do you need?

 

Fair point and I'm not speaking in absolutes. I just think there's two sides to the Vazquez coin and the Twins might value his leadership more than people think. 

In terms of how many leaders you need, on this current roster, I don't see too many and that's a problem.

[RpR]

5 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

In addition to to those listed by road trip, Austin Wynns, Austin Nola, Brett Sullivan, Carlos Pérez, Chad Wallace, Anthony Bemboon, Tomás Nido, Omar Naráez, Luke Malle, Tyler Heineken and Tucker Barnhart are all guys over 29 who played in the majors as recently as last year and weren’t starters. I suppose many are unavailable, but I bet most are. Personally, I can’t abide by the absolute judgment s of defense made by the person I’m responding to. I’ll leave it at that. 

Look up the stats. , I did.

[bean5302]

9 minutes ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

I'm going to duck after posting this but Vazquez brings intangibles and leadership. His stats are what they are. But we don't know the kind of value he might bring behind the scenes and how important he is for the pitching staff and some of the younger players on the roster. It is fair to say that those intangibles might not justify his salary especially if the Twins are again facing a payroll crunch - but...I would think twice before dumping him.

Yes, I agree. Intangibles are the perfect way to justify keeping the worst baseball player in MLB on the roster. Unfortunately, Vazquez is the worst catcher even in sand lot baseball history because he has a negative chakra aura and his healing crystal ratio is out of sync with the flat Earth orbit impact on the sun's lunar cycle. This contributes to paint fade on the players' favorite cars and makes them depressed so none of them play as well as they should. Oh, if only we had some advanced metrics which track all that!

[Mike Sixel]

If you are arguing, and I'm willing to listen, his "intangibles matter"......how much? He's literally got a historically bad batting line. How low would it have to go for you to care? I mean, Drew Butera looks like Hank Aaron compared to Vazquez's current batting line. 

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

If you are arguing, and I'm willing to listen, his "intangibles matter"......how much? He's literally got a historically bad batting line. How low would it have to go for you to care? I mean, Drew Butera looks like Hank Aaron compared to Vazquez's current batting line. 

I've been a Twins fan since 1986 so I know how this one is going to end. Vazquez, for intangibles and leadership, is a luxury that the Twins can't afford so I wouldn't expect him on the roster in 2025, but I'm not going to be happy about it.

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

I've been a Twins fan since 1986 so I know how this one is going to end. Vazquez, for intangibles and leadership, is a luxury that the Twins can't afford so I wouldn't expect him on the roster in 2025, but I'm not going to be happy about it.

He's signed thru next year.....so he'll be back. That was sort of my point in the OP.

[jorgenswest]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

Vazquez wrc+ is 15...... Meaning he's twenty percent as good as the guys you point out....15 after a gift double last night. He'd have to hit five times better to be below average for a catcher

Is his presence on the roster maddening to the point where his contributions last night can’t be appreciated? He hit two balls that had an expected batting average of .500 last night. That liner to left exited at 103 mph and he was credited with a double. That doesn’t happen if it is a weak pop up or grounder. The liner to right with a velocity of 96 was caught. He hit two liners with an xBA of around .500 and one of them falls which I guess is what should was expected.

One reason to be optimistic that he will hit better the rest of the way: His current average exit velocity is at the high point of his career.

One reason to be pessimistic that he will not be close to good enough the rest of the was: His strikeout/walk rate is at the low point of his career.

Optimistic or pessimistic, he still is going to make contributions to the team that can be appreciated.

[jmlease1]

2 hours ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

Not necessarily an apples to apples comparison, but...

After the Twins won the WS in 1991, they dumped Al Newman for Donnie Hill and gave Pedro Munoz a full-time spot allowing Dan Gladden to leave in free agency.

Donnie Hill was a train wreck and didn't even last half a season. Munoz, statistically, was fine but the Twins sorely missed Gladden in the clubhouse. Ditto for Newman.

Easy to look at the back of the baseball card and say this guy needs to go, but baseball is a 6 month marathon and the mental part is sometimes just as important as the on-field production. 

Understood that the Twins' financial situation may preclude them from keeping Vazquez beyond this year, but I wouldn't necessarily be thrilled to see him go.

Was it leadership they missed in 1992 or the fact that Pagliarulo didn't even play 50 games, Hrbek missed 50 games, and the pitching staff needed a better 4th starter than Bill Krueger? Keeping in mind that they still won 90 games, but there was no wild card and only 2 divisions back then. I don't think the issue was "no Dan Gladden or Al Newman in the clubhouse".

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

If you are arguing, and I'm willing to listen, his "intangibles matter"......how much? He's literally got a historically bad batting line. How low would it have to go for you to care? I mean, Drew Butera looks like Hank Aaron compared to Vazquez's current batting line. 

And you could probably pay Drew Butera 1% of what you pay Vazquez to 'teach' Jeffers these intangibles. And he wouldn't cost a roster spot, you just got to buy him a coaches jersey.

Or heck, Pay Tim Laudner to do it and get him off the broadcasts.

[KirbyDome89]

5 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

And frankly, the "someone else" crew hasn't hit well.

The "someone else," crew might be unappealing, but they're a marked improvement over Vazquez. 

[Riverbrian]

Catching is expensive to acquire. 

Christian was traded to the Astros for the 28th and 29th prospects in the Astros system. A rental for 3 months in August, September and October to backup light hitting Martin Maldanado cost two top 30 prospects albeit on the lower end of the top 30. Lower end or not... One of those prospects ended up being what we know today as Wilyer Abreu who is looking like a decent major league ball player for the Red Sox this year. 

Catching is expensive to acquire.

With . 680 career OPS and a defensive reputation and the most recent job as a backup to Martin Maldanado... the weakest hitting catcher in the world -- The Twins signed him to a 30 million dollar deal over 3 years.  

I'll say it again. Catching is expensive to acquire.

The Twins will always be better off growing their own and selling catching to take advantage of this unique consistent market overpay.  

Because they failed to develop catching. Or more specifically... because they didn't have the patience or didn't believe in Jeffers. They had to pay for it. This is the result.

Now Vazquez will hold a 30 million dollar back up job in Minnesota which will delay the development of the next in line. 

Catching is expensive to acquire. Grow it. Unclog that pipeline. 

[Doctor Gast]

5 hours ago, Twins_Fan_in_NJ said:

I'm going to duck after posting this but Vazquez brings intangibles and leadership. His stats are what they are. But we don't know the kind of value he might bring behind the scenes and how important he is for the pitching staff and some of the younger players on the roster. It is fair to say that those intangibles might not justify his salary especially if the Twins are again facing a payroll crunch - but...I would think twice before dumping him.

Absolutely agree with you that Vazquez brings intangibles & leadership. Buck brings leadership to the OF, CC brings leadership to the INF & we need leadership at catching. Maybe Vazquez isn't taking Jeffers under his arm to mentor him. But Jeffers is watching how he handles pitchers, & how he commands the position. After Correa's relay to home & Vazquez made a lunging tag. Jeffers mirrored that same play. Back when we had Tanner Swanson as the catching coach you always hear from the players Tanner helped me with this or helped me with that & you see the development in the catchers. With Conger you hear nothing, which makes that much more important the need for mentorship as well as leadership.

After the total disaster at catcher in '22 in all aspects of catching, Vazquez's presence totally transformed the position. Vazquez took all the burden off Jeffers' back & gave him room to thrive on both sides of the plate. I hate to think what would happen if Vazquez got hurt or he's DFAed next year or even when his contract is up because we'll be losing our defensive safety net & like '22 Jeffers could crash & burn again. We lack quality catching depth & poor future catching pool especially defensively.