How Should the Minnesota Twins Use Their Last Bullpen Spot?

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, nicksaviking said:

I'd go with the 'stretch' reliever, knowing that most of the successful Twins relievers of the past were 'stretch' relievers until they found that extra gear and became high leverage relievers. Duran, Jax, Duffey, May, Rogers, Perkins. They were all converted starters by the Twins, like Stewart was previously with the Dodgers. Developing one of those guys each year seems to be a great way of keeping your bullpen stocked.

But it's the last spot in the pen so I expect it to be fluid. Just don't give much of a leash to the guys with control problems. I know every team thinks they have some special magic to fix that, but no one ever does.

Agreed. Cantenrio, which I clearly have no idea how to spell. He's got to be on an innings limit. Use those in the majors. 

[gman]

I think it's more important to decide who the 1 inning guys should be (no more than 2-3) and prep the others to 2 or more innings.

[USAFChief]

Carrying reliever(s) who you don't want to actually use is silly. There is no need for a "long reliever."

Similarly, there isn't room for this silly notion that you can "piggyback" a starter with another starter. You don't have enough players to dedicate TWO pitchers who only pitch every 5th day. 

[miller761]

Yes to having too many bullpen arms. When is the last time this was even a topic for conversation? No to Syndergaard!!

 

[jorgenswest]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

Agreed. Cantenrio, which I clearly have no idea how to spell. He's got to be on an innings limit. Use those in the majors. 

If Canterino shows that he can be a late inning reliever he needs to be in the pen at the expense of one of the older relievers. He needs to claim one of the top 6 spots though. The back of the pen will get inconsistent work and he will need that consistent work.

[Mike Sixel]

15 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Carrying reliever(s) who you don't want to actually use is silly. There is no need for a "long reliever."

Similarly, there isn't room for this silly notion that you can "piggyback" a starter with another starter. You don't have enough players to dedicate TWO pitchers who only pitch every 5th day. 

Tell that to Tampa.... There is absolutely room to do it. 

[roger]

What I got out of this piece and comments is that the Saints are gonna have a hell of a bullpen.

I want to see Varland and Canterino begin their seasons in St. Paul.  Stretch out both to start with Varland going 5-6 innings and Canterino going 4+ to limit his innings.

Varland is the first man up when the Twins need a starter, either for a doubleheader or if someone goes on the IL.  He does that until the first of August when he is switched to the pen in St. Paul before joining the Twins mid-August as a lights out late reliever for the pennant run.

Canterino accumulates innings in St. Paul until June.  He then moves to the Saints pen pitching 1 or 2 innings each time out.  After doing that for a couple weeks, he joins the Twins around the All-Star break.  How exciting would it be going into the playoffs with both of these young men throwing bullets out of the pen?

[Blyleven2011]

Stretch reliever , who did we offend that we had to change from long reliever ...

Is the bullpen  name going to finally change too ...

Are some pitchers going to be offended by calling them piggyback pitchers ...

I guess we will wait and see ...

[nicksaviking]

6 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Stretch reliever , who did we offend that we had to change from long reliever ...

Is the bullpen  name going to finally change too ...

Are some pitchers going to be offended by calling them piggyback pitchers ...

I guess we will wait and see ...

I don't think this is new. While 'long relief' has been a term I typically see on THIS site, I've heard both used for years. Probably at least since the Matt Guerrier days.

Also 'swing man' for the guys who get spot starts.

[jimbo92107]

Are we looking at this the right way? Twins supposedly are developing a very potent offensive lineup. If that happens, then the team should stock up on guys that can hold onto a late game lead. If the offense doesn't produce, then it doesn't matter what's in the bullpen.

[IaBeanCounter]

35 minutes ago, gman said:

I think it's more important to decide who the 1 inning guys should be (no more than 2-3) and prep the others to 2 or more innings.

 

What i didn't understand is that last year there were times when a relief pitcher (coming in the 5th or 6th inning) would have an a easy 5-9 pitch inning and then be replaced the next inning.  Unless there were a lot of rockets being caught, why weren't they sent out to start the next inning?   What is the difference between a two inning appearance with 20-25 pitches and a one inning appearance with 20-25 pitches.   Duran pitched into a second inning in 8 of his 59 games.  I expect most of the relievers can go more than one inning. 

I am of the belief that good relievers allow runs in about 25% of their appearances.  If the Twins are using 4 or more relievers in a game, in most cases, one or more of them will give up runs. 

[jorgenswest]

15 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Tell that to Tampa.... There is absolutely room to do it. 

Before I jump in I need to be clear on the terms here.

I think an opener is a bullpen arm that is used for one or two innings to start the game followed by a pitcher who might throw 5. To me this is using the pitchers in a different order but not changing the role of the pitcher. The opener would be available the next day or day after for any bullpen role.

I think piggybacking starters is taking two starting pitchers and having them throw 3-5 innings depending on their performance. Neither pitcher would be available to the bullpen for the few days after the game and would probably need to be rested for their next piggyback start making them unavailable in the bullpen for the few days prior. 

Which of these are we talking about in relation to the Rays?

[AWOLNATION_11]

I think a 12-man staff with a 3rd catcher would probably allow for the roster to reach its full potential. 

[AWOLNATION_11]

On a serious note though, I agree that guys should be able to pitch multiple innings and the AAA-shuttle can be used.  One thing that did come to mind during the Jackson and Okert acquisitions though was the relievers with options have tightened, so if the out of options guys struggle and the optionable guys perform, the Twins might have some tough decisions.  All in all though, if that is the case no one is really making that much outside of Thielbar, so it really shouldn't be that hard of decision.

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, jorgenswest said:

Before I jump in I need to be clear on the terms here.

I think an opener is a bullpen arm that is used for one or two innings to start the game followed by a pitcher who might throw 5. To me this is using the pitchers in a different order but not changing the role of the pitcher. The opener would be available the next day or day after for any bullpen role.

I think piggybacking starters is taking two starting pitchers and having them throw 3-5 innings depending on their performance. Neither pitcher would be available to the bullpen for the few days after the game and would probably need to be rested for their next piggyback start making them unavailable in the bullpen for the few days prior. 

Which of these are we talking about in relation to the Rays?

The statement was there wasn't room to use a guy for more than an innings or two for a particular starter, the order is irrelevant. The names are irrelevant.  There is room to have a guy you plan to use when paddaock starts. Whatever you call it. 

[Patzky]

1 hour ago, arby58 said:

How is Ober part of 'a house of cards?' He started 26 games for them, threw 144.1 innings. He started another 5 games at AAA and threw  22.2 innings there. Combined, he threw 167 innings without going on the IL, had a MLB WAR of 3.0, a 3.43 ERA, and a WHIP of 1.067. Other than Lopez, he is the starting pitcher who appears to be rock solid.

The game at Camden Yards where he simply slaughtered the Orioles hitters was a beautiful thing.

[Fatbat]

32 minutes ago, roger said:

What I got out of this piece and comments is that the Saints are gonna have a hell of a bullpen.

I want to see Varland and Canterino begin their seasons in St. Paul.  Stretch out both to start with Varland going 5-6 innings and Canterino going 4+ to limit his innings.

Varland is the first man up when the Twins need a starter, either for a doubleheader or if someone goes on the IL.  He does that until the first of August when he is switched to the pen in St. Paul before joining the Twins mid-August as a lights out late reliever for the pennant run.

Canterino accumulates innings in St. Paul until June.  He then moves to the Saints pen pitching 1 or 2 innings each time out.  After doing that for a couple weeks, he joins the Twins around the All-Star break.  How exciting would it be going into the playoffs with both of these young men throwing bullets out of the pen?

Or Varland Canterino combined 1 hitters every week. 

[nicksaviking]

12 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

The statement was there wasn't room to use a guy for more than an innings or two for a particular starter, the order is irrelevant. The names are irrelevant.  There is room to have a guy you plan to use when paddaock starts. Whatever you call it. 

The Twins did a great job of using 1 inning starters last year and shuttling several from St. Paul to Minneapolis as needed.

But with the current rotation (please don't let it be the opening day rotation) including two of Paddock, DeSclafani and Varland, I agree that they may need to eat more innings with the pen this year. However, with them 'beefing' up the bullpen with fewer guys with options, that's going to be much, much harder.

Wow, yeah, looking at this from this perspective after typing the above two paragraphs, if Duran, Jax and reliever #7 are the only optionable guys in the pen, they absolutely have to go get another top of the rotation arm to make sure there's only one innings-limited starter. If the pen gets used up, like it does from time to time, are they really going to option Duran or Jax? Or DFA Okert or Jackson even if they're pitching well?

[strumdatjag]

What happened to the good, old-fashioned idea that the last spot(s) are filled based on the competition that started yesterday in Ft. Myers?   Just asking’.  

[nicksaviking]

1 minute ago, strumdatjag said:

What happened to the good, old-fashioned idea that the last spot(s) are filled based on the competition that started yesterday in Ft. Myers?   Just asking’.  

I mean, it's got to be partially based on what you need from the spot.

No matter how well he's playing, it's not like the team would roster Jose Miranda if they need his spot for another middle infielder.

[Mike Sixel]

9 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

The Twins did a great job of using 1 inning starters last year and shuttling several from St. Paul to Minneapolis as needed.

But with the current rotation (please don't let it be the opening day rotation) including two of Paddock, DeSclafani and Varland, I agree that they may need to eat more innings with the pen this year. However, with them 'beefing' up the bullpen with fewer guys with options, that's going to be much, much harder.

Wow, yeah, looking at this from this perspective after typing the above two paragraphs, if Duran, Jax and reliever #7 are the only optionable guys in the pen, they absolutely have to go get another top of the rotation arm to make sure there's only one innings-limited starter. If the pen gets used up, like it does from time to time, are they really going to option Duran or Jax? Or DFA Okert or Jackson even if they're pitching well?

Yup...also why the last hitter should be optionable.....seriously. 

[nicksaviking]

2 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Yup...also why the last hitter should be optionable.....seriously. 

Pretty much all of my favorite players already are.

[gman]

If a non-optionable pitcher is pitching so poorly that they need to be replaced, then its highly possible that no one else will pick them up immediately when they get released. That pitcher may just wind up back at St Paul.

[JD-TWINS]

2 hours ago, Cory Engelhardt said:

I'll add to this; if/when they do add another starting pitcher; the stretch/long reliever role could go to both DeScalfani and/or Paddack throughout the season too no? 

It's good to have depth.

Paddack in the Pen would be a real luxury & weapon. Great way to protect the arm & inning total. New signing would need to be somebody pretty top shelf for the Twins to consider this route. Doubt Paddack would be in favor. If he could start a couple months or into July & then dial back to bullpen assassin the 2nd half it would be great.

Top 3 - new guy - DeSclafani/Varland/Festa would allow Paddack to Pen sooner than later.

Interesting. All hinges on another acquisition to kick off new options. Fingers crossed.

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Carrying reliever(s) who you don't want to actually use is silly.

agreed. at a certainly point you have to stop insuring against worst-case scenarios. 13 pitchers is an absurdly large number to begin with, but having one that you don't use and try to avoid having pitch? blech.

[Cory Engelhardt]

7 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

Paddack in the Pen would be a real luxury & weapon. Great way to protect the arm & inning total. New signing would need to be somebody pretty top shelf for the Twins to consider this route. Doubt Paddack would be in favor. If he could start a couple months or into July & then dial back to bullpen assassin the 2nd half it would be great.

Top 3 - new guy - DeSclafani/Varland/Festa would allow Paddack to Pen sooner than later.

Interesting. All hinges on another acquisition to kick off new options. Fingers crossed.

I think SWR should be added to that depth list too, but I agree. It's something that managing innings will be important for everyone, but maybe especially Paddack. He is only getting paid 2.5 million for this season, so maybe that is part of the plan already, having him available for 100ish innings, and monitor them closely?

[DJL44]

37 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Yup...also why the last hitter should be optionable.....seriously. 

I don't think any team has a single day where all 26 players at the top of the depth chart are healthy.

[USAFChief]

57 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

The statement was there wasn't room to use a guy for more than an innings or two for a particular starter, the order is irrelevant. The names are irrelevant.  There is room to have a guy you plan to use when paddaock starts. Whatever you call it. 

No, I made the claim there isn't room to "piggyback" starters. Two guys who share a start, and only pitch every 5th game.

It's an idea you read here from time to time.

There isn't room. Nobody does that. It's unworkable. 

[jorgenswest]

I think it is useful to plan to have an arm ready to go up to 50 pitches for every game is prudent. Last year Sands sat in that role for a stretch where the starters were so efficient he wasn’t used. If the 13th pitcher isn’t used often because the starters are pitching 5 or more innings routinely this is a good thing. I would still plan to have that last guy with options in the pen to take over for an early blow out or injury and save the majority for the next day. After the game shuttle them down to AAA and bring up a fresh arm. This is the modern day long reliever. They need to have confidence in the other 7 bullpen arms in high leverage situations.

[Fatbat]

41 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I mean, it's got to be partially based on what you need from the spot.

No matter how well he's playing, it's not like the team would roster Jose Miranda if they need his spot for another middle infielder.

RP’s are viewed a little differently tho. If an RP is hanging 0000’s and available every other day, they wont be option’d no matter who they are.