White Sox 4, Twins 3: Twins Cease and Desisted Against White Sox

[h2oface]

15 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Ten games in and we have to use a split squad type of lineup. Thank god we changed trainers. Ball players may be better today but what good is that if they can’t stay on the field? How deliciously Minnesota sports is it to have a game changing type of player like buxton on the roster, but he gets more scheduled off days than members of Congress. Can’t risk the injury. I can’t think of something more Minnesota sports.

It is amazing that Correa hurt his back on this little lackadaisical dance into home - one of the lamest scoring attempts I have ever seen. He had no awareness of the throw and where he needed to be running. If I see the catcher setting up there I run in fair territory, not right toward him. I mean, he didn't even slide. Just tip-toed around and strained his back? It is the play he says he hurt his back on. Buxton and Correa have become so fragile.

https://www.mlb.com/twins/video/luis-garcia-in-play-run-s-to-trevor-larnach-1tdcxl?q=trevor larnach rbi single&cp=MIXED&qt=FREETEXT&p=0

Buxton was sent in for one reason. To try to tie the game with a homer. Nobody on base, and with Miranda coming in and giving up the DH, the pitchers spot wouldn't come around for 8 more batters, if the game wasn't over. Hunting for the "big swing" as they like to call it these days. It would seem you would want to save him to do that with a runner on, but so it went. Wallner was the one Baldy wanted to pull.

[Peter]

Need  to win these games especially against division-our lineup was AA also 4 hits isn’t going to get it done. Very disappointing and frustrating loss. Yes it was 4-3 but with3 errors. Looking for twins to break out tonight/tomorrow and take series. 

[Riverbrian]

14 hours ago, mrtwinsfan said:

I blame the twins mgmt for Mirandas recent struggles , the worst thing  is putting him a 3-4 spot batting, he then seems to think he needs to do more IDK ? And he also is playing almost a new position also this year, Miranda will never admit it, But to me it shows , They did the same with Sano for  A  Few  years , How did that work out , we all seen it. , Rocco and Mgmt if they cant see it, And so far they dont, , , We all want Miranda to do well but lets not make him more than he is at this early point in his Career, 

You grab a bat and you walk up to the plate when it's your turn to hit. 

He will need to do more wherever he hits in the lineup. He will be up with bases empty, runners on, with no outs, with two outs with big leads, big deficits, tie games, close games, in the 2nd inning, in the 5th inning, in the 9th inning.. He fill face all of these situations... wherever he hits in the lineup. 

You are painting Miranda as psyched out and therefore worthless in the meantime.   

You claim to see it and you claim that Rocco and Mgmt can't? 

 

[Riverbrian]

Love reading the comments describing the lineup as "B Team" "C Team" "Split Squad".

Which players are you talking about? 

Correa had an OPS of .492, Kepler had an OPS of .489. Declared starters Miranda and Taylor are currently doing the OPS in the .400 area dance. 

The other guys... the bench, the Subs... Larnach has an OPS of .849... he wasn't supposed to make the team out of spring training. Farmer and Solano were not supposed to face righthanders. They are over .700 OPS facing them so far. 

Which players are the "B" "C" and "Split Squad" players? Or do we just win on names/reputation. Doesn't seem to matter what they are actually doing on the field. 

There is no such thing as "B" "C" or "Split Squad". If you think that a player on the roster is "B" "C" or "Split Squad". We will not survive the season. There are 26 spots and every player needs to be able to perform.

If it hurts to play someone... they shouldn't be on the roster. BECAUSE THEY WILL PLAY and therefore IT WILL HURT.  

Is Solano still superflous? 

Do we still have too many left handed outfielders? 

How are all those platoon plans working out? 

10 games into the season. 

Does anybody remember September without singing Earth Wind and Fire.  

 

[wabene]

10 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

Not to mention his incessant pulling of the starting pitcher. 

Oh wait, they're leading the league in innings per start right now.

Double post (intentional)

[wabene]

8 hours ago, stringer bell said:

All true, but I'll take 1-0 over 0-1.

Of course, but people act like if they started Buxton in center field they would've won the game. It's all just second guessing. Indiana's very good point stands and I like our chances the next two games. This first game was the one anyone looking at this series preview was the one we would be most likely to lose. 

Those hoping for the best lineup the Twins can muster are going to have to be patient for about two weeks judging by Polanco's progress. You'd think Gallo would be back. I'm not sure if Kepler is a better option than Walner at this point. Maybe some others heat up.

My guess is the Twins best possible 2023 lineup will not come to pass until well into summer with guys like Lewis, AK and maybe Julien and Martin providing the boost. Looking at the bright side this could be a Twins team that peaks at the end of the year instead of the all too familiar opposite. 

[DJL44]

13 hours ago, jkcarew said:

We'll also see if this maintenance program (on top of the diminished DH role/demands) results in him playing significantly more than 50% of the season.

Unfortunately it seems to be at the cost of playing less than 50% of the game (no defense) when he does play.

[rv78]

Totally agree with there is no "A" lineup or "B" lineup etc. This is the team Falvine put together. Now the calls for Rocco not putting his best team out there are already screaming. Like it or not it's what you are going to get with the current regime in play. Think Correa, Gallo and Kepler would have made a difference in this game, yeah if they would have played it might have been 4-0 or 4-1 instead of 4-3. Look at how those three have been doing this year so far. Outside of Gallo's HR's it been pretty pathetic. No one expected Taylor or Castro to be difference makers or Larnach to even make the team. Wallner isn't suppose to be here. Yet he's had 6 plate appearances and scored 1 run, Kepler has had 17 and scored 1 run. Correa has had 36 and scored 2 runs. Let's call for Wallners head and give the three $53M men a pass. Buxton needs to play. If he can't play then put him on the IL. Pinch hitting is not playing. 2 occasions the Twins have faced the opposing teams Ace and both times Rocco pulls his best player out of the lineup. That is just poor management no matter how you slice it.

[Pat]

The problem is that their offense is so one dimensional. No home runs, no runs. This is not a recipe for sustainable success.

[GeorgiaBaller]

@218263 I am with you.  Runners left on base is a continuous challenge---so I think the team has to try and manufacture some runs with bunts, steals, hit and runs.  Of course, everyone will second guess the Mgr if aggressive in game management moves do not work, but especially on a day where several starters are out, going to have to stretch some chances with small ball to create a run.  Steals for the Guardians and Yankees are up dramatically (nice article by Ken Rosenthal on stealing numbers in the Athletic)---winning this year will demand some aggressive practices to move runners.

[Minny505]

18 hours ago, mrtwinsfan said:

And he [Miranda] also is playing almost a new position also this year, Miranda will never admit it, But to me it shows , They did the same with Sano for  A  Few  years , How did that work out , we all seen it.

This is satire right?

Considering Miranda played 2000+ innings of 3B in the minors, more than all other positions combined.

[Woof Bronzer]

By my count the Twins have had 2 give-up games (2nd game vs Marlins, this one) in 10 games.  At this pace, they will have 32 give-up games this season.   I'm guessing the Central will be decided by a handful of games (in other words those 32 games will have a major impact on the division) so I would encourage the Twins to take every game seriously.  Why in the world would you sit Buxton on a day when almost all of your decent offensive players are out? 

 

[ashbury]

15 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

By my count the Twins have had 2 give-up games (2nd game vs Marlins, this one) in 10 games.  At this pace, they will have 32 give-up games this season.   I'm guessing the Central will be decided by a handful of games (in other words those 32 games will have a major impact on the division) so I would encourage the Twins to take every game seriously.  Why in the world would you sit Buxton on a day when almost all of your decent offensive players are out? 

 

When all the dust settles in September and we find out who the Twins' main rival turns out to be, can we go through their season game logs for them too, and find out whether they put out a less-than-ideal lineup in less than 10% of their games?

IOW, every team does this, do they not?

[tarheeltwinsfan]

18 hours ago, Melissa said:

As far as I know, Miranda came up in the minor leagues as a 3rd baseman. Urshela held down that spot last year, so Miranda was either DH or moved to 1B much of the time. I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that his move back to 3B this season will be for the best.

You are not alone in your thinking Melissa. I also feel Miranda should be at 3B this season. But where will Brooks Lee or Lewis play next year? I could see Miranda being moved to 1B if Kirilloff is not available next year and if Lee is ready for the big show. 

[Cap'n Piranha]

The hidden issue here remains the Twins' struggles with keeping day-to-day injuries actually day-to-day.  Yesterday, for example, with both Gallo and Correa unavailable, the Twins had a 2 man bench (Buxton and Jeffers).  This was only day 2 for Correa and day 3 for Gallo, but the direct result of having 2 unusable players is that Buxton more-or-less had to PH in a less than ideal spot, in order to keep a center fielder in the lineup.  If Gallo had been put on the IL right away, either Garlick or Lamarre could have been brought up; Garlick would have been a great option to bat against Bummer, leaving Buxton available to PH for Taylor (either with at least one man on base, or leading off the 9th).  If Lamarre was up, you could have still PH Buxton for Taylor, and used Lamarre to play CF in the 9th forward.

[Woof Bronzer]

1 hour ago, ashbury said:

When all the dust settles in September and we find out who the Twins' main rival turns out to be, can we go through their season game logs for them too, and find out whether they put out a less-than-ideal lineup in less than 10% of their games?

IOW, every team does this, do they not?

Maybe, although I must say I see the "every team does this" a lot on this site, always in defense of the Twins.  I just find this to be a weird philosophy, to be proud of maintaining the status quo and doing the same thing as every other team.  Wasn't the whole crux of the saber movement to do things differently, to not rely on the same conventional wisdom?  Especially when we hear non stop about the Twins market limitations.  Should they be doing what every team does?  Or should they think outside the box and try to find competitive advantages that may differentiate them from other clubs?  Whenever I hear "every other team does this" I say, "that's too bad, why do the Twins want to copy everyone else?"  My point here is that the Twins margin of error is pretty thin and they should not take games for granted.  As supporting evidence I will point to 2022 - turns out they needed far more wins in May/June than they got, in order to overcome injuries and poor play in September.  

I would love to see an extensive study on injuries, "load management", etc.  It sure feels to me like all these scheduled off days and abundance of caution has not led to a reduction of injuries but rather an increase!  But maybe I'm just doing the "back in my day" thing.  But 20-30 years ago I cannot recall it being common for teams to have multiple injuries and IL stints just 10 games into a season.  

[chpettit19]

4 hours ago, GeorgiaBaller said:

@218263 I am with you.  Runners left on base is a continuous challenge---so I think the team has to try and manufacture some runs with bunts, steals, hit and runs.  Of course, everyone will second guess the Mgr if aggressive in game management moves do not work, but especially on a day where several starters are out, going to have to stretch some chances with small ball to create a run.  Steals for the Guardians and Yankees are up dramatically (nice article by Ken Rosenthal on stealing numbers in the Athletic)---winning this year will demand some aggressive practices to move runners.

My question when it comes to the small ball, "manufacture runs" stuff is who do you want them doing these things with? Especially the steals. Who in the lineup yesterday should've been stealing bases? Gordon was 0-4, Taylor 0-4, Castro 0-3. Those are the only guys you have that would have any chance of being successful stealing a base. Then when it comes to bunting, I assume the idea is to bunt guys from first to second since they had no extra base hits. So now you're giving up a an out to get a guy who isn't fast enough to score from second on a single to second base where you still need 2 hits to just get him in in a game where you had 4 total hits.

You have to have the guys to do those things. They have very few people who can steal bases. They have a lot of swing and miss in the lineup so doing a hit and run is quite risky because if they swing and miss with these runners it's an automatic out. Bunting a guy over is just giving up an out and still needing 2 hits from a team that's struggling to collect hits regularly. The Guardians and Yankees have significantly different rosters than the Twins. There's some context that needs to be taken into account when it comes to these strategies actually being useful for a team.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, ashbury said:

 

IOW, every team does this, do they not?

No, they do not.

Plenty of teams still expect plenty of players to either be in the lineup or on the IL.

And players still do, with no ill effect. Francisco Lindor doesn't need "load management," why does Correa?

[chpettit19]

19 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

No, they do not.

Plenty of teams still expect plenty of players to either be in the lineup or on the IL.

And players still do, with no ill effect.

Number of players who've played every game this season by team:

LAA- 4
Astros- 4
A's- 2 (1 guy who was at 8 straight before getting hurt)
Tor- 3
Atl- 5
Mil- 3
StL- 4
Cubs- 5
Ari- 1
LAD- 4
SF- 0 (2 guys who missed 1 game with Inj designation)
Cle- 3
Sea- 5
Marlins- 1
Mets- 4
Nats- 3
O's- 4
Pads- 5
Phils- 4
Pit- 3 (Cruz was at 9 before getting hurt)
Tex- 4
Rays- 2
Bos- 3
Reds- 5
Rockies- 1 (Cron missed 2 with injury)
KC- 0
Tigers- 2
Twins- 3 (Correa was at 100% until he got hurt)
CHW- 1
Yanks- 3

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. Twins way off here. Everybody out there just running the same 9 guys out there everyday. Twins were 1 short of the league leaders before Correa got hurt. And every team has cycled regulars through the DH spot to give them a partial off day. It's almost like modern day FOs utilize athletes different in pretty much every major sport now and it's time to quit pretending they don't.

[Vanimal46]

7 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Number of players who've played every game this season by team:

LAA- 4
Astros- 4
A's- 2 (1 guy who was at 8 straight before getting hurt)
Tor- 3
Atl- 5
Mil- 3
StL- 4
Cubs- 5
Ari- 1
LAD- 4
SF- 0 (2 guys who missed 1 game with Inj designation)
Cle- 3
Sea- 5
Marlins- 1
Mets- 4
Nats- 3
O's- 4
Pads- 5
Phils- 4
Pit- 3 (Cruz was at 9 before getting hurt)
Tex- 4
Rays- 2
Bos- 3
Reds- 5
Rockies- 1 (Cron missed 2 with injury)
KC- 0
Tigers- 2
Twins- 3 (Correa was at 100% until he got hurt)
CHW- 1
Yanks- 3

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. Twins way off here. Everybody out there just running the same 9 guys out there everyday. Twins were 1 short of the league leaders before Correa got hurt. And every team has cycled regulars through the DH spot to give them a partial off day. It's almost like modern day FOs utilize athletes different in pretty much every major sport now and it's time to quit pretending they don't.

The guys that are playing every game so far, they are likely the stars on their teams, no? I’m curious. Our stars require a mandatory sit day every 4-5 games. 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Vanimal46 said:

The guys that are playing every game so far, they are likely the stars on their teams, no? I’m curious. Our stars require a mandatory sit day every 4-5 games. 

Our *star requires a mandatory sit day every 4-5 games, yes. Correa, Larnach, and Miranda were playing everyday before Correa got hurt. Larnach and Miranda have played every game. Byron Buxton is never going to be an everyday player. If you expected that coming into the year that's on you. I don't have any idea why anyone thinks Buxton would, or should, be treated like a guy who's going to play everyday. How many more years do they need to try that and watch him play fewer than 100 games before people just accept that his body can't do it? Not liking that Buxton can't play as much as we want isn't the same as the Twins doing something crazy.

[Vanimal46]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Our *star requires a mandatory sit day every 4-5 games, yes. Correa, Larnach, and Miranda were playing everyday before Correa got hurt. Larnach and Miranda have played every game. Byron Buxton is never going to be an everyday player. If you expected that coming into the year that's on you. I don't have any idea why anyone thinks Buxton would, or should, be treated like a guy who's going to play everyday. How many more years do they need to try that and watch him play fewer than 100 games before people just accept that his body can't do it? Not liking that Buxton can't play as much as we want isn't the same as the Twins doing something crazy.

That didn’t answer my question but thanks though. 

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

That didn’t answer my question but thanks though. 

Yes, teams play their stars everyday. Just like the Twins do.

[USAFChief]

48 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Number of players who've played every game this season by team:

LAA- 4
Astros- 4
A's- 2 (1 guy who was at 8 straight before getting hurt)
Tor- 3
Atl- 5
Mil- 3
StL- 4
Cubs- 5
Ari- 1
LAD- 4
SF- 0 (2 guys who missed 1 game with Inj designation)
Cle- 3
Sea- 5
Marlins- 1
Mets- 4
Nats- 3
O's- 4
Pads- 5
Phils- 4
Pit- 3 (Cruz was at 9 before getting hurt)
Tex- 4
Rays- 2
Bos- 3
Reds- 5
Rockies- 1 (Cron missed 2 with injury)
KC- 0
Tigers- 2
Twins- 3 (Correa was at 100% until he got hurt)
CHW- 1
Yanks- 3

Yeah, I can see what you're saying. Twins way off here. Everybody out there just running the same 9 guys out there everyday. Twins were 1 short of the league leaders before Correa got hurt. And every team has cycled regulars through the DH spot to give them a partial off day. It's almost like modern day FOs utilize athletes different in pretty much every major sport now and it's time to quit pretending they don't.

Youre just flat wrong. The Twins do not play their best players every day. Other teams do.

Gio Urshella and Luis Arraez led the Twins lat year with 144 games played.

Nick Gordon played as many as Carlos Correa.

Plenty of MLB players logged over 150, and many more would have except for IL time.

You wanna argue that resting players is a good idea, go for it. You're wrong, but at least it's an honest argument. 

"Everyone does" isn't.

[Larry Janisewski]

22 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Nice to Larnich hitting well. 

 

22 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

Nice to Larnich hitting well. 

Yes it's still early in the season but where are all the Larnach haters who during spring training constantly bashed him and complained that he shouldn't make the opening day roster????

[Larry Janisewski]

21 hours ago, Melissa said:

As far as I know, Miranda came up in the minor leagues as a 3rd baseman. Urshela held down that spot last year, so Miranda was either DH or moved to 1B much of the time. I don’t think I’m alone in thinking that his move back to 3B this season will be for the best.

A lot of "fans" bashed Miranda during spring training that he wasn't a good enough 3rd baseman to hold down the position at the major league level. Yes it's early but he has played great defense so far.

[chpettit19]

33 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Youre just flat wrong. The Twins do not play their best players every day. Other teams do.

Gio Urshella and Luis Arraez led the Twins lat year with 144 games played.

Nick Gordon played as many as Carlos Correa.

Plenty of MLB players logged over 150, and many more would have except for IL time.

Resting players is questionable at best. 

I mean you're actively ignoring the Twins players that would've hit 150 or more "except for IL time." Interesting that you use that caveat for other teams, but not the Twins.

Correa played 136 games, but missed time in the beginning and end of May with an injury. Otherwise would've hit your magical 150 mark. 

Arraez played 144, but missed the same chunk of early May as Correa or he would've hit your magical 150 mark.

Miranda played 106 of 113 games after being recalled.

Polanco had played 153, 55 (out of 60), and 152 the last 3 years before getting hurt last year. And even last year he'd played 104 of 125 while battling injuries for months and missing 2 weeks at the end of June.

And Urshela missed a half dozen games in July with an injury or he would've gotten there, too.

That's their 5 best players not named Buxton. All of which would've played more than 150 games if not for injuries (or being a rookie in Miranda's case). But tell me again how they're resting their best players more than other teams. Byron Buxton is the only one they do dramatic things with. There were 54 guys who played 150+ games last year. Less than 2 a team. The Twins would've had 4 if not for injuries. You, sir, are the one who is flat out wrong. Provably wrong, in fact.

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

No, they do not.

Plenty of teams still expect plenty of players to either be in the lineup or on the IL.

You know what?  Get ready for a surprise. I think you're right, at least about the first part of your argument.

I went looking for what a successful team did last year, and by looking first at the Dodgers I stopped because I think I found your "poster team" for running the same starting lineup out there successfully.  Indeed, they were so confident in their roster that they went with only 12 position players, meaning one backup catcher, two utility fielders, on Opening Day.  16 pitchers rounded out the opening day 28 man roster.  And then they backed up their planning with execution.   I looked mainly at April, because that's what we're actually discussing right now in 2023, and the Dodgers' 2022 edition had essentially the same starting 8 (catcher's a special case) day after day.  Looking at the players' b-r.com Game Logs, I see leadoff Betts playing 19 out of 20 games in April.  Freeman was 20 for 20 as was Trea Turner. Justin Turner was 19 for 20. Muncy was 20 for 20. I expected to see days off as I went down the opening day batting order, but the bottom of the order of Taylor, Bellinger, Lux were in 18, 20, and 17 of April games.  And there were next to no "cheap" appearances - occasionally during blowout wins the starters would sit in the 7th inning or whenever, but I think i spotted only one late-inning insertion of a starter who rested.

So it's certainly possible if you have the roster for it.

I think I have to turn my attention to how FalVine have constructed their roster.  To make ends meet, our FO has demonstrated a willingness to assume more injury risk, in the name of acquiring top-tier talent.  The Dodgers by contrast have the financial luxury to make all their decisions based on bang, not bang-for-buck.  Or else, they've just done a great job at accumulating top-tier ironman talent, but being able to pay all April starters but young'uns Gavin Lux and Will Smith above $10M in 2022 couldn't have hurt.

It occurs to me now that the Dodgers might not accept Byron Buxton and his injury history in trade, no matter how small the price.  He doesn't fit their profile.

It's hard to do an apples-to-apples comparison but I think the discussion of the Twins 2023 roster comes down to how would other teams deal with the individual players in question.  If the Dodgers were forced to accept Buxton on their team, would they work him like a rented mule in CF, or let him DH and have an occasional day off during April.  I don't know how to answer that because Buxton is a different player than it looks like LA would even choose to have.

[USAFChief]

14 minutes ago, ashbury said:

 

It occurs to me now that the Dodgers might not accept Byron Buxton in trade, no matter how small the price.

 

What an interesting thought, one that hadn't occurred to me. As usual, you bring thoughtful input into any discussion. 

I think, at the end of the day, they might not. Great players play. By definition. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The leaderboard in games played last season is full of guys like Freddie Freeman, Guerrero Jr, Dansby Swanson, Aaron Judge, etc. Probably typical of every year. 

Not so much the Michael Taylors of the world. Nothing against MAT.