Buxton: "Pissed" at Twins for No Call-Up Decision in 9/2018

[Otto von Ballpark]

It is not only true, it's demonstrably true. He is a career .650 OPS player who has spent FAR more months being an awful hitter than a even an average one. This is a fact.

 

Obviously Buxton is streaky, but judging by "months" is a bit problematic. Calendar months are rather arbitrary, and do you require a minimum PA threshold? Do two bad half-months outweigh a great full month? He didn't even play a full month in MLB in 2018, so how do you judge that? His full 2018 season was about 1 month worth of PAs. So maybe -1 bad month for the season?

 

In 2017, he was pretty even -- awful in 2 months covering 171 PA, great in 2 months covering 151 PA, and roughly average in 2 more months covering 189 PA. Feels like 2017 should be +1 in this "monthly" accounting, or at worst neutral.

 

2016, he really only played 2 full months, and was bad in one and great in the other. Another 2 half-months were poor, so I guess -1 bad "month" again?

 

2015 might be right out -- it was poor, but basically just 3 half-months (or less) in his MLB debut year. Didn't even break the rookie AB threshold for the entire season.

 

So maybe 1-2 more awful "months" vs average or better "months" for 2016-2018 (and a little worse if you include his abbreviated 2015 debut). How meaningful is that, versus just citing that he's been a streaky 80 wRC+ overall (with plus CF defense) since the start of 2016?

[DrNeau]

Going off your business world example, this is how I would describe what happened to Buxton:

Company hires a up-and-coming sales guy, enticing him with a large signing bonus.

Sales guy doesn't quite meet the lofty expectations, but is still above average for the industry and profitable for the company.

Sales guy gets in a serious car accident. Takes a few weeks off off. Tries coming back early, but isn't effective due to lingering head aches. His clients are temporary split to others in the company. He takes a leave of absence, then slowly works back to full time. Clients are gradually given back to him.

At the point he is ready to go back to full time, company decides not to give him all his clients back until after the fiscal year (which is a month away) because he is too close to a sales threshold that would require them to pay him a bonus.

Sales guy attends a company charity event and says to the press he is pissed at the company. Sales guy is put on a PIP (Performance Improvement Plan) for not supporting the company's vision. Sales guy will need to prove himself before being given any clients at all.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I guess we'll find out how much the decision motivates or handicaps him. Ultimately, only time is going to tell.

I mean, sending a guy home seems like a rare motivational tactic. They did with Dozier and Hicks, but they were rookies and both were just demoted to AAA in August and hit poorly there. Dozier was about to change positions too. I get that Buxton has been frustrating, but the circumstances around sending him home Sep. 1st feel quite a bit different. (Both Dozier and Hicks struggled to open the following season too, if we want to judge the efficacy of those decision.)

[TheLeviathan]

 

So maybe 1-2 more awful "months" vs average or better "months" for 2016-2018 (and a little worse if you include his abbreviated 2015 debut). How meaningful is that, versus just citing that he's been a streaky 80 wRC+ overall (with plus CF defense) since the start of 2016?

 

Pick whatever you want, gunnathor's point is glaringly false.  You aren't an 80 wRC+ player and not, basically, a poor hitter.

 

To my point, Buxton has about 1,000 PAs.  Here is how his months breakdown:

 

total PAs in months where he was sub .600 OPS: 569

.600-.800: 293

.800+: 249

 

Why does that matter?  Well ,when you take the larger samples there are 250 freakishly good PAs mixed in that drag the averages towards a misleading number.  Now, don't get me wrong, that production was amazing.  He gets credit for that.  But the vast majority of the time the team has fielded Buxton has resulted in play that can best be called putrid.  Almost 600 of his 1,000 PAs were below .600 OPS.  That's just plain bad.  A few months of being a stud don't magically make up for that and you lose that perspective in the larger data sets.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

He flat out needs to shut up about it now and he better start hitting.

This I agree with you on. Some media members like to stir things up, but it sounds like this was Buxton’s first visit back to the cities since then, so I give them a pass for asking and I give Buxton a pass for answering and expressing himself. From now on Buxton needs to just say it’s all in the past, and leave it at that.

[ewen21]

 

That's how I viewed the July 2nd option/demotion -- light a fire in the player, and let him get ample rest while trying to get healthy and back in the groove at AAA (which may not have been feasible on the MLB roster at the time, with a 3-4 man bench).

 

Maybe, but I viewed the demotion as the Twins trying to get the best players on the field.  He was not one of them so down he went.

[Squirrel]

I wonder if Baldelli has reached out to Buxton yet, as he said that was one of the things he specifically said he was going to do.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Maybe, but I viewed the demotion as the Twins trying to get the best players on the field. He was not one of them so down he went.

Well, that's generally part of lighting the fire under a player, by definition. I hope they're not doing that to their best performers!

[Otto von Ballpark]

I wonder if Baldelli has reached out to Buxton yet, as he said that was one of the things he specifically said he was going to do.

If he's like me, it's on his ever-growing to-do list. And it will soon become a New Year's resolution, maybe spanning multiple years.

[Dman]

 

Do we believe that Buxton was unaware of his struggles? I really doubt the Twins needed to damage that relationship for him to realize his play has to improve, or to jump start a work ethic that by all accounts is fantastic. 

 

The "he didn't earn/deserve," a call up bit went out the window when Field made the expanded roster.

 

The "rest for his health," bit was crossed out after he played for weeks at AAA while healthy. 

 

They f***** him. Full stop. He's pissed, as he should be. The decision the Twins made had absolutely nothing to do with anything other than gaining an extra year of control. 

 

I don't think there is any question that the Twins screwed him out of a year of service time.  At the same time he just hasn't performed that well for the team either.  It is a two way street.  The Twins started the year with every intention of letting him earn his service time but by the time he was ready the team was out of contention and it made no sense for them to lose yet more time on the clock for a prospect they have a lot invested in.

 

It sucks and if I were Buxton I would be pissed but at the same time he has to know and own that his performance at the plate has not been MLB worthy.  At the end of the day it is a business.  If he had performed well he would have played more.  IMO the Twins made the right decision.  If they gave up that year would he have agreed to an extension?  I doubt it.

[Major League Ready]

 

I wonder if Baldelli has reached out to Buxton yet, as he said that was one of the things he specifically said he was going to do.

 

I sure hope so. It does not matter if he agrees 100% with what they did or disagrees 100%. Reaching out to Buxton makes the right statement. I would not entertain any conversation with Buxton regarding the relative merit of those decisions. He should just let him know that from this point forward he will do everything in his power to help Byron Buxton become a superstar.

[howieramone2]

 

I wonder if Baldelli has reached out to Buxton yet, as he said that was one of the things he specifically said he was going to do.

I haven't officially heard, but I would guess they have or will. My best guess is, they will use this opportunity to try and buy out 2 or more free agency years. At this point in time the risk is about equal for both parties. Then I hope they approach Rosario. I believe there is a lot going on, on many different levels.

[KirbyDome89]

 

At this point, it's just a lot of talk.  He needs to put his big boy pants on and shake it off.

 

Don't make it sound like last year "happened to him because the Twins screwed him".  He flat out needs to shut up about it now and he better start hitting.

Service time manipulation did "happen," to him. 

 

His poor performance in limited time last season doesn't somehow justify the decision. There weren't, and still aren't, 40 players in the organization who are better than Byron Buxton. 

[howieramone2]

 

Service time manipulation did "happen," to him. 

 

His poor performance in limited time last season doesn't somehow justify the decision. There weren't, and still aren't, 40 players in the organization who are better than Byron Buxton. 

There were at least 40 players in the organization better than him last year.

[Aerodeliria]

It's water under the bridge. He can either put on his 'big boy pants' and use it to his advantage or sulk; it's really all up to him.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Pick whatever you want, gunnathor's point is glaringly false. You aren't an 80 wRC+ player and not, basically, a poor hitter.

 

To my point, Buxton has about 1,000 PAs. Here is how his months breakdown:

 

total PAs in months where he was sub .600 OPS: 569

.600-.800: 293

.800+: 249

 

Why does that matter? Well ,when you take the larger samples there are 250 freakishly good PAs mixed in that drag the averages towards a misleading number. Now, don't get me wrong, that production was amazing. He gets credit for that. But the vast majority of the time the team has fielded Buxton has resulted in play that can best be called putrid. Almost 600 of his 1,000 PAs were below .600 OPS. That's just plain bad. A few months of being a stud don't magically make up for that and you lose that perspective in the larger data sets.

I can't speak for gunnarthor, but my position is that he's been a below-average hitter, but above-average defender, and roughly average MLBer overall. Obviously we all hope for better, but that's not necessarily a bad outcome either.

 

Also, your awful/putrid numbers are somewhat skewed by his debut. For 2016-2017, he was exactly even by your earlier criteria: 385 PA in average or better months, 385 PA in poor months. (Plus another 80 PA near average at .701 OPS, which could roughly offset his 94 bad PA from 2018.)

 

You need his debut 138 PA from 2015 to tip the scales toward the awful side, and I'm not sure we should weigh those equally. (And perhaps not coincidentally, his 2015 and 2018 were his least healthy MLB years, and account for an outsized share of his poor PAs.)

[Otto von Ballpark]

I haven't officially heard, but I would guess they have or will. My best guess is, they will use this opportunity to try and buy out 2 or more free agency years. At this point in time the risk is about equal for both parties. Then I hope they approach Rosario. I believe there is a lot going on, on many different levels.

I think there is virtually zero percent chance of a Buxton extension this winter. What would that even look like? Has any player ever signed an extension coming off a season as bad/lost as Buxton's 2018? There's just no salary figure for those FA years that would make sense for both parties right now.

[gunnarthor]

 

It is not only true, it's demonstrably true.  He is a career .650 OPS player who has spent FAR more months being an awful hitter than a even an average one.  This is a fact. 

 

Your posts here are largely a narrative.  A wishful thinking one for a player you WANT to be successful.  I share your hope and desire (you should've seen where I drafted him in fantasy baseball last year!) but I'm not letting it cloud reality. 

 

I'd like you to consider how much it is actually clouding yours.  He has mostly been a very bad hitter for us in his first 1,000 at bats.  that needs to change.

You are right that 2015 and 2016 were bad but I didn't mention that in my post. I specifically said 2017. I don't really think career numbers in three partial seasons really tell us nearly as much as what we see over a full (mostly) healthy season. YMMV. 

 

I don't think you're understanding how badly those small sample sizes affected his season numbers. Again, look at 2017 and look at it at 15 game intervals, that prevents him getting extra credit for incredibly hot or cold periods. He posted above avg obp two thirds of the year (obp in 2017 was .324) which is great considering his speed. What we've seen from Buxton is a player who has taken time to adjust at every level and then done so quite well.

 

.082/.135/.122 (historically bad start to the season)

.261/.358/.391

.268/.362/.341

.224/.255/.408

.178/.275/.178

.311/.367/.422

.370/.400/.704 (killing it)

.286/.333/.571

.273/.325/.468

 

Of course, this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Buxton got less than 250 at bats last year at all levels combined and was sent home while players with worse performance weren't ****ed with b/c they didn't have service time considerations. The team screwed Buxton over several ways last year - including letting him play on an ****ed-up foot and then claiming that they let him play hurt in AAA - that i don't really understand anyone taking the teams side on this. Had the Twins shut him down in August, they would've had a better argument.

[gunnarthor]

 

I think there is virtually zero percent chance of a Buxton extension this winter. What would that even look like? Has any player ever signed an extension coming off a season as bad/lost as Buxton's 2018? There's just no salary figure for those FA years that would make sense for both parties right now.

No, unless his agent thinks Buxton is done/injured or a AAAA player, there's no way he'd start negotiations after last year. From what we heard after 2017, Buxton (and other players) weren't keen on signing overly team friendly deals either. If Buxton/Sano group play to their potential, I think the Pohlad's will make one of them a Mauer like face of the franchise (my money has always been Buxton) and let the rest walk. If they bust or are just good not all-star level players, they probably move on in FA. I honestly figured one of Rosario/Kepler would be traded this offseason since that would move one arb eligible player out of the group while Kiriloff was nearly ready.

[ewen21]

 

You are right that 2015 and 2016 were bad but I didn't mention that in my post. I specifically said 2017. I don't really think career numbers in three partial seasons really tell us nearly as much as what we see over a full (mostly) healthy season. YMMV. 

 

I don't think you're understanding how badly those small sample sizes affected his season numbers. Again, look at 2017 and look at it at 15 game intervals, that prevents him getting extra credit for incredibly hot or cold periods. He posted above avg obp two thirds of the year (obp in 2017 was .324) which is great considering his speed. What we've seen from Buxton is a player who has taken time to adjust at every level and then done so quite well.

 

.082/.135/.122 (historically bad start to the season)

.261/.358/.391

.268/.362/.341

.224/.255/.408

.178/.275/.178

.311/.367/.422

.370/.400/.704 (killing it)

.286/.333/.571

.273/.325/.468

 

Of course, this has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. Buxton got less than 250 at bats last year at all levels combined and was sent home while players with worse performance weren't ****ed with b/c they didn't have service time considerations. The team screwed Buxton over several ways last year - including letting him play on an ****ed-up foot and then claiming that they let him play hurt in AAA - that i don't really understand anyone taking the teams side on this. Had the Twins shut him down in August, they would've had a better argument.

He hit well for 250 at bats in 2017. Brant Alyea and Chris Colabello hit really good for a while, too

 

We can look back on those 250 at bats and accenuate that or we can erase them and focus on the over 700 other at bats.  Subtract out those two months where he had a clue at the end of '17 and what are his career stats?  THAT is a frightening thought.

 

I prefer to look at the whole picture and for now I am not liking what I see

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Do we believe that Buxton was unaware of his struggles? I really doubt the Twins needed to damage that relationship for him to realize his play has to improve, or to jump start a work ethic that by all accounts is fantastic.

 

The "he didn't earn/deserve," a call up bit went out the window when Field made the expanded roster.

 

The "rest for his health," bit was crossed out after he played for weeks at AAA while healthy.

 

They f***** him. Full stop. He's pissed, as he should be. The decision the Twins made had absolutely nothing to do with anything other than gaining an extra year of control.

agreed 100%, but on the flip side, why eff with his service time if you don’t think he can hack it?

 

He’s had like 3 good months over 3 years. He’s been bad... so why screw around with his service time at all?

 

Buxton didn’t deserve to be up anymore than Field did. He was bad.

 

So I’m baffled, perplexed, puzzled, and dismayed. Why would Falvey pick this fight? Certainly Buxton won’t extend. Another season like the last and 2016, non-tender... The odds of seeing this through to the bitter end are low.

 

 

 

More service time brings back more value in trade. All this other nonsense is just driving up, or down trade value

[old nurse]

 

I also completely disagree with this post. He had an excellent 2017 and then was injured and jerked around last year.  He's going about dealing with the way he was treated unfairly with maturity and reasonableness in my opinion. Even Falvey knows that, as you can see by how he's acknowledging Buxton deserves to blow off a little steam.  Buxton's not holding it against the fans or his teammates or the kids whose charity he attended. And he seems to want to excel as much as ever. I really think he's going to show a few people this year. 

He has excellent defense. I fail to see how his hitting was excellent. 90 out if a47 in wrc+ is abysmal. his .312 woba is near the bottom.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I wonder if Baldelli has reached out to Buxton yet, as he said that was one of the things he specifically said he was going to do.

I did read today or yesterday someplace that Baldelli would be traveling to meet with both Buxton and Sano in person.

[Mike Sixel]

Just because a business does what is right for them, and wrong for labor, doesn't mean labor should be happy, or even content. He should be pissed. They potentially took a year of FA from him, potentially costing him millions of dollars.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I don't think there is any question that the Twins screwed him out of a year of service time.  At the same time he just hasn't performed that well for the team either.  It is a two way street.  The Twins started the year with every intention of letting him earn his service time but by the time he was ready the team was out of contention and it made no sense for them to lose yet more time on the clock for a prospect they have a lot invested in.

 

It sucks and if I were Buxton I would be pissed but at the same time he has to know and own that his performance at the plate has not been MLB worthy.  At the end of the day it is a business.  If he had performed well he would have played more.  IMO the Twins made the right decision.  If they gave up that year would he have agreed to an extension?  I doubt it.

No doubt he didn't perform well. As far as making a pure business decision I understand why the Twins made the move. You're also right that if he would've hit following his DL stint service time never would've been an issue. 

 

That said, the team rushed him back from the toe injury because his defense was "too important." Obviously Buxton agreed with that decision, but he clearly wasn't healthy and his performance continued to dip while the Twins, as they're wont to do, waited until the last possible minute to put him back on the DL. Then they cut his rehab assignment short and optioned him. If he just does two full rehab stints he accrues enough service time for 18' to count. The Twins used their mistake in May to manipulate his service time in July, and then kept him down despite his August numbers. 

[Dman]

 

No doubt he didn't perform well. As far as making a pure business decision I understand why the Twins made the move. You're also right that if he would've hit following his DL stint service time never would've been an issue. 

 

That said, the team rushed him back from the toe injury because his defense was "too important." Obviously Buxton agreed with that decision, but he clearly wasn't healthy and his performance continued to dip while the Twins, as they're wont to do, waited until the last possible minute to put him back on the DL. Then they cut his rehab assignment short and optioned him. If he just does two full rehab stints he accrues enough service time for 18' to count. The Twins used their mistake in May to manipulate his service time in July, and then kept him down despite his August numbers. 

 

I pretty much agree with you there.  I never understood why they rushed him back.  The only thing I could think of at the time is maybe the injury just wasn't that bad.  That is the part of this deal that doesn't look good to me in hindsight.  

 

If they rushed him back and then as a consequence his service time fell short that ends up looking pretty bad to me.  I have no idea what information they had when making those decisions but if they didn't have Byrons best interests in mind then that seems like negligent behavior IMO.  If Byron felt he was OK and was pushing to get back and proved he could play with it then that decision is on him.  I don't know how that played out.

 

I hate that he lost the year of service time but as I have stated things haven't worked as planned for either side so far so I can see how things ended up this way.

[D. Hocking]

Here is Rocco's response.   He has talked with him on the phone but is planning on seeing him in person, and thinks players saying what is on their mind is a good thing.   So far I have liked what I have seen from him.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkWbJQsnZks

[BD57]

"Why mess with his service time?"

 

If the Twins call him up, shorten the time he's under team control, and he turns into a superstar and goes "bye bye" the first moment he can, the same people criticizing the Twins for "messing with Buxton's service time" would be criticizing the Twins for losing a superstar yet again.

 

Because "consistency" isn't important, griping is.

 

You take "service time" into consideration because you know darn well it's unlikely the player will give you any consideration for not doing so when "Free Agency time" comes ... it'd be "Thanks, Sucker ... see ya around."

 

If Buck becomes a superstar, one of two things will happen:

 

• The Twins will offer him enough money that their "playing with service time" won't matter; or
• The Twins won't . . . .

It'll be about "How much money you offerin'?" when that time comes - and the Twins usually lose those bidding wars.

 

Look, there's really only one formula which is realistic for the Twins:

 

• Draft & develop well, such that players they've found themselves form the core of a champion;
• Add a few "Not significantly expensive" free agents who perform above their price tag at the most opportune moment.

 

That's what it's taken in the past, that's what it will take in the future.

 

If Buck becomes a superstar, it's unlikely he'll be here when he become eligible for free agency.

[Doomtints]

Sending Buxton to the minors was the right move. No one questions that. We all would have done the same thing.

 

Sending him home after the minor league season ended instead of calling him up to play with the Twins was the WRONG move, in capital letters, 15 exclamation points, and a bullhorn.

 

I think some people don't register that Buxton was sent HOME when baseball was still being played. This isn't how you treat adults. There was no reason for this, it's a message to HIM and not to his performance. He is not dumb enough to not take this personally. It was personal. The message was we just don't want you around the clubhouse. The minor league season is over, just go home or whatever it is you do. We would rather eat the roster spot than have you on premises.

 

Mike Zimmer fired a kicker after a very bad game but even he wouldn't have done this to a player that the team is betting the farm on for the next five years.

[jctwins]

Let us not forget the era of Glenn Perkins bailing on Metrodome final game ceremonies for a hunting trip. About nine years later he finishes his career with the same club in tears in the club house. 

 

This will be forgotten about eventually.