Miguel Sano accused of assault by photographer

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

So, if he's proven innocent (which is impossible by the way, you can't prove a negative), she should lose everything and have to live on the streets?
But, if he's proven guilty, he shouldn't lose everything and have to live on the streets? Just a moderate punishment, that won't really affect his quality of life in any meaningful way?

Waiting for more evidence is a totally fair stance, but statements like they above show your complete lack of objectivity regarding this matter.

Exactly. One can believe Betsy's statement without wanting to hang Sano in the town square.

 

I believe Betsy. I do not know what the punishment to Sano should be, nor is it my place to make that judgment. I'll let the investigators figure that one out.

[TheLeviathan]

 

He doesn't have any rights as a private person accused by another private person. (He may have the right to sue for libel/slander, but truth is a defense against such).  You're conflating public judgment with criminal liability.  Sano is not going to face jail time because twitter (or Twins Daily) thinks he's an abuser.   We as individuals owe Sano nothing, and are free to judge with the facts we have.

 

Unfortunately, we've reached a point that "public judgment" can be much worse than criminal liability depending upon the crime.  People have literally had their lives ruined, threatened, or put in serious danger by mere mistaken identity much less actual guilt.  What you're suggesting would be ideal if true, but we should deal in reality here.  Social media is a powerful force, not to be dismissed as you have done repeatedly.

 

I'm comfortable with people making judgments based on what we know now. What I'm skeptical of is their ability to withhold their zeal for consequences until proper steps are taken so we make sure fairness is part of the process.  It won't be justice unless it is.

 

Judge away...I know I have.  But then stand back and let the consequences be meted out fairly.  

[Doomtints]

 

Also having spent a lot of time in every continent except Africa and Antarctica I am pretty confident that people throughout the globe know when someone is uncomfortable/not willing in these sort of situations.

 

[jud6312]

 

The poster isn't privy to those private dealings or where she is getting that info from either so I believe the same understanding should be shown to the individual. 

 

It sounds to me like the post you're quoting is a personal experience as well. I would hesitate to tell somebody to "back the **** up," simply because their default position differs from yours. 

 

**Before people freak out, no, this isn't a defense of Sano or a profession of his innocence in any way. It's a reminder that this thread shouldn't turn into a battle for moral high ground.

I feel like the original comment would have resulted in demerits and a trip to the naughty list if coming from an everyday user.

 

Honestly, I can't believe the thread hasn't been locked.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Sorry, but nope. I’m not going to stand back and allow someone to use what was a secondhand information mistake (and irrelevant to the conversation at hand) to invalidate a firsthand personal experience.

When it ran counter to everything TD was stating it was relevant to the story presented. You said it yourself, she wasn't aware of inner workings for access and the quote was a mistake; a valid explanation. If we can look past her mistakenly using that information it seems logical to do the same for others who pointed out the incongruity. It wasn't an invalidation, and that sentiment was made clear in the OP. You claim to be protective of firsthand personal experiences, yet your willingness to attack those of another poster suggests otherwise. 

[Pardon My Dinger]

I hope we trade him, find out he didn't do anything wrong just so I can watch the people who only listen to one side of the story whine about how we gave up an MVP for nothing.

Or, just maybe, since she was a TwinsDaily photographer, this forum is literally a jury of her peers and the people behind this website have expressed complete confidence in her claim. If you want to wait for his rebuttal, then, like, whatever, dude.

[Jham]

This statement is BS. No person should lose their job over accusations with no proof. You have to look into the credibility, otherwise it is defamation.

If he is proven innocent in a year he should sue for all she has until she's living on the streets.

 

If the allegations are proven true, He should be suspended the whole season and fined big money.

 

She should have taken this to court, not to twitter.

This isn't true at all. A pilot accused of terrorist ties, a daycare worker accused of child molestation, etc. Absolutes are dangerous. Which ironically, I think is your point.

[Jerr]

 

As I'm reading her account again, wouldn't Sano's agent and her boss (or the guy she worked with) be eye witnesses? They were all outside, Sano asked where the restroom was (right through the door they exited) then they fought for a solid 10 minutes to get her back in the door. Where were the other 2 men? Their car was parked just outside the door.

And why didn't the 2 other men step in and say "hurry up let's go" if Sano was leaning in for kisses and she was not reciprocating? Were they just sitting in the car and ignoring the outside world for 10 minutes?

Again, I'm not taking any sides in this case. Just trying to make sense of the story and where the 2 other men went after they exited the mall.

The above quoted statement. And the statement she said about Twins Daily being denied access and Twins Daily denied it.

We, need to just let the facts come out, as until then we have no clue, only a he said/she said and I can speak  (as most of us) for neither he or she.

[Jerr]

 

Okay, back the **** up right now and stop using this as defense of your argument. Betsy is not privy to Twins Daily's private dealings with the Twins organization. What she typed was a simple mistake, gleaned from information she received secondhand from god knows where.

 

It has NOTHING to do with the veracity of her PERSONAL EXPERIENCES.

You probably know more, than us posters do on her and her relationship with Twins Daily. But the fact she stated something in error, can't be just brushed aside. She has made serious accusations. It needs time to be investigated, as so far nothing is to be taken for truth and no judgements should be made.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

But the fact she stated something in error, can't be just brushed aside. 

When the information is secondhand in nature and really irrelevant to the story at hand, it most certainly can and should be brushed aside.

 

Twins Daily's access (or lack thereof) barely even qualifies as a footnote in a story about sexual assault.

[jsteve96]

 

So, if he's proven innocent (which is impossible by the way, you can't prove a negative), she should lose everything and have to live on the streets?
But, if he's proven guilty, he shouldn't lose everything and have to live on the streets? Just a moderate punishment, that won't really affect his quality of life in any meaningful way?

Waiting for more evidence is a totally fair stance, but statements like they above show your complete lack of objectivity regarding this matter.

false accusations need to end. If she's lying and trying to ruin his life, yes.. he should ruin hers. 

[Linus]

Part of why our court systems "defers judgment" is so that the credibility of all parties is a matter of record. It's why we have proceedings for all sorts of crimes that can be difficult to prove.

 

Our system needs to do a better job about the process of determining the victim's credibility (so as not to make the victim feel re-victimized) but the credibility of both is important. I'd suggest that all Van is doing is asking for is not a rush to judgment of the accused. That is a fundamental idea in our nation. One I strongly support and find crucial to true justice.

 

I would suggest we endeavor to avoid a rush to judgment while also supporting the victim in telling their story, taking it seriously, and pursuing it's truth. This false dilemma that we can't have both due process and respect for victims is dangerously swinging back and forth in our society right now. We should all be better, and smarter, about this. (And we can start by not making Twitter our judge, jury, and executioner)

Very well said. We are all concerned when we hear things like this but, no matter how outraged we are,a correct judicial process will take time. During this process we need to support and respect the alleged victim completely and hope the correct outcome will be reached.

[Squirrel]

Let me guess though ... you were happy with Al Franken stepping down because of his political party?

Moderator warning: please stop this tack, now. I’m sure you both have good intentions of finding the truth, but turning this into a divisive political debate will solve absolutely nothing and in fact will make it worse. Sexual assault and sexual harassment are horrible and traumatizing things and happen a LOT A LOT A LOT. Your energies would be better served working towards education and awareness than turning this into something no one wants to be a part of with the finger pointing and choosing sides.

[Mr. Brooks]

false accusations need to end. If she's lying and trying to ruin his life, yes.. he should ruin hers.

But sexual assault doesn't need to end? My problem is you aren't holding him to the same standard as you are her. Why doesn't his life need to be ruined, like you say hers should be, if he's guilty?

[Mike Sixel]

This is why I root for laundry, and not individuals I don't know.

[Jerr]

 

When the information is secondhand in nature and really irrelevant to the story at hand, it most certainly can and should be brushed aside.

 

Twins Daily's access (or lack thereof) barely even qualifies as a footnote in a story about sexual assault.

Well, I took it as coming from her and that matters...But as I said I'll await the facts, as I have none (so far) to support either parties.

[PseudoSABR]

 

This statement is BS. No person should lose their job over accusations with no proof. You have to look into the credibility, otherwise it is defamation.

If he is proven innocent in a year he should sue for all she has until she's living on the streets.

 

If the allegations are proven true, He should be suspended the whole season and fined big money. 

 

She should have taken this to court, not to twitter.

A person's statements are proof.   She has every right to tell her story. It happened to her, and it's her truth.  

 

And to be clear, Sano will not lose his job by mere accusation; these are credible accusations that have been partially corroborated because the story was relayed to friends at the time of incident.   

 

Yes false accusations do happen, but what happens far more often is sexual assaults which go unreported because of the ringer that too many demand we put victims through to protect powerful men's reputation and job.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

There is a difference between withholding judgement and skipping an investigation. Feel free to judge until your heart is content but you've stated in multiple posts that investigating the matter isn't necessary. It is. I disagree that a twitter post is enough to warrant disciplinary action by the Twins. Can you imagine if they decided to hand down a punishment with nothing more than a tweet to back it up? The MLBPA would have a field day. Like it or not, a proper vetting of the events by both sides is the best course of action.  

This mischaracterizes what I've said. I said we don't need an investigation in order to believe the victim.  I think when it comes to consequences, there should be an investigation (and I've said so again and again), but I don't think that should include trying to discredit the accuser (which is what happen would happen in the court room). 

 

Again, I'm not sure what other kind of evidence you expect to come forth.  And if the lack of it means you don't believe her, well, I've got problems with that attitude. 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Unfortunately, we've reached a point that "public judgment" can be much worse than criminal liability depending upon the crime.  People have literally had their lives ruined, threatened, or put in serious danger by mere mistaken identity much less actual guilt.  What you're suggesting would be ideal if true, but we should deal in reality here.  Social media is a powerful force, not to be dismissed as you have done repeatedly.

We agree on waiting to decide on any consequences.   As I've said, I hope any investigation doesn't seek to discredit the accuser but to corroborate basic facts.

 

But if you think a ruined reputation is somehow the equivalent to jail-time, I imagine you haven't faced the consequence of jail time.   Yes, it's horrible to face false accusation, but it's not the same as going to jail.  And neither is the equivalent of being victimized, and being afraid to tell someone because people won't believe you and will tear your life apart. 

 

And really, let's put the false accusation narrative in full view.  Beyond the Duke LaCrosse team, and amid all of the recent cascade of accusations of sexual assault, how many are know to be false? How many celebrity's reputations ruined? 

[bunsen82]

 

Okay, back the **** up right now and stop using this as defense of your argument. Betsy is not privy to Twins Daily's private dealings with the Twins organization. What she typed was a simple mistake, gleaned from information she received secondhand from god knows where.

 

It has NOTHING to do with the veracity of her PERSONAL EXPERIENCES.

 

Brock,  and John so she made an incorrect assumption.  Either way there is a lot wrong in here I dislike. I have a 1 1/2 year old daughter, I have also been a manager that has investigated these types of events and also been accused of one, so no offense but you also need to back up a bit.   The issue is validity of her statements right or wrong - one assumption or statement she has made is incorrect.  Secondly she shouted this through the social web which causes a litany of issues.  One is two individuals reputations are tarnished rightfully or possibly unnecessarily - you I and the public should not be judge and jury based on a single observers opinions of the events.  This should have gone through the proper channels, whether notifying someone within Twinsdaily, the Twins organization or the police department, this really should have been done 2 years ago.  If you think I am being tough she is going to have a lot tougher questions coming her way.  There are 3 claims she has made, possibly kidnapped which she later states she ended up going along which nullifies that claim.  Possible sexual abuse, which the worst offense is he tried to go in for a kiss and never kissed her (this is not clear to me based on the statement) - doesn't meet the threshold, and lastly the most likely is physical harm or abuse - for this to occur actual harm needs to occur (bruise, cut ect).  Unsure whether this actually occurred she may have more evidence to support this.  The only thing that can help her is more evidence, or more accusers come forward with similar stories otherwise this is merely a he said she said.  The other thing is without going through the proper channels the three individuals can either claim they don't remember the events which could be accurate, or 2 they get their stories ironed out together.  If you really want proper punishment she should have notified the police who could have questioned each of the 3 separately and seen if there was any discrepancies in the stories.  Now she has set herself up for a  lawsuit from both individuals.  This is the way I see it right wrong or indifferent.  I also realize there are scumbags out there, and Sano could very well be one. Bad deal all the way around.    

[AZTwin]

For those that say someone would come to her rescue if that was the case. I probably would have believed you a couple years ago but people generally stick to themselves. I was shot at in an apartment complex with people around and no one would speak up. It was an eye opening experience to say the least

[Vanimal46]

For those that say someone would come to her rescue if that was the case. I probably would have believed you a couple years ago but people generally stick to themselves. I was shot at in an apartment complex with people around and no one would speak up. It was an eye opening experience to say the least

Well, bystanders typically don't go running towards guns in fear of being shot themselves... So... Not sure your experience translates to this one. Sorry that happened to you.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Well, bystanders typically don't go running towards guns in fear of being shot themselves... So... Not sure your experience translates to this one. Sorry that happened to you.

It kind of does, actually... There was a movement to have victims of sexual assault yell "Fire!" so people would actually come help them.

[AZTwin]

Well, bystanders typically don't go running towards guns in fear of being shot themselves... So... Not sure your experience translates to this one. Sorry that happened to you.

I mean I went back down there the next day to talk to some folks, who denied it, even though their friends said they heard what happened. The 10 minute thing and Twins daily access in her story didn’t really add up. I really don’t think she realized how big this would get. It needs to be taken seriously and investigated

[Vanimal46]

And really, let's put the false accusation narrative in full view. Beyond the Duke LaCrosse team, and amid all of the recent cascade of accusations of sexual assault, how many are know to be false? How many celebrity's reputations ruined?

That's a deep rabbit hole you want others to go down in your last paragraph. Many of the studies out there are deeply flawed with their statistics. What constitutes a "false accusation"? It's only proved false if police can PROVE it's false. Whether that's the victim recanting their statement, or eye witnesses other than the perpetrator contradicted the account.

 

Who knows, maybe there are MORE false accusations than studies show because police can't definitively prove the victim or perpetrator lied.

 

What we do know, right now, is Sano will now forever be tied to a sexual assualt charge on the internet. It'll be on his Google searches. Just like the victim will be tied to this forever whenever someone googles her name. Whether it's fair or not, this is the reality they face, along with any judgments people have already made on social media.

[adorduan]

 

Or, just maybe, since she was a TwinsDaily photographer, this forum is literally a jury of her peers and the people behind this website have expressed complete confidence in her claim. If you want to wait for his rebuttal, then, like, whatever, dude.

Well ,except its the ACCUSED that get to pick the jury of his/her peers in a real court of law, not the accuser.  And thank God for that...

[h2oface]

10 PM EST, and still crickets on the Twins official homepage AND the MLB homepage. Nothing. Nada. Zilch. Amazing.

 

One learns a lot about people on a thread like this.

 

I think the thing that surprises me the most about all of this is the professed cover-up by TD. We all have choices, and have to live with them.

 

I am glad I am on the outside watching on this one.

[bunsen82]

I do want to also state several people trust her individually or believe her or want to support her over Sano (although that may also be due to possibly getting negative reactions for supporting that individual - which I didn't even support Sano and I have received negative comments in this thread). This support comes from people on this site, obviously a couple twins, and several other individuals that have had interactions with her. 

 

The other thing in her favor is I cannot totally justify is why she should would have gone with him to this signing unless he did in a way force her to go.   Unless there was a valid reason for this which I cannot come up with,  she seems like an individual who is steadfast in her motives, but may be a bit timid.  My wife would have told the 1st base coach if her statement was valid, he was a scumbag to his face and he should be ashamed of himself - which would have shut him down real quick, and with Sano would have been to yell to get his claws off of her before going in the 1st place and then would have kicked him where the sun don't shine if he wouldn't have let go. He very well may have not wanted to take a no for a no, but I wonder if she may have wanted to go along because he was a bit of a star and didn't yell and scream as loud as she has stated or said no due to being intimidated.  We just don't have those answers.  By the way I can guarantee any video evidence is long gone which sucks in this  case for both parties.  

 

Lastly this is a personal dilemma I have with the Metoo movement.  There are aspects of the Metoo movement that I really like and dislike.  The first is I like that it gives attention to the issue and emboldens women to speak up and know there is support.  However as I stated earlier this really isn't a proper method especially if you are going to name the accusers.  The accused should have some protections until a proper investigation for a workplace or going through a criminal or civil trial ultimately determines guilt.  I also question in this case what was the motive now for posting this. The metoo movement has now been out for over 2 months.  Did it take her this long to build up the courage, was there some other incident in her life that pushed this to the forefront.  Ultimately did she do this to become a part of the movement or did she have another motive.  The second is what did she want the outcome to be, to shame Sano, to possibly start an investigation, to hurt him professionally?  We don't know these answers, and if this really happened the answers to these questions really shouldn't matter.  But I do question if there is more to this story, and if so then these questions are pertinent.  

[KirbyDome89]

 

This mischaracterizes what I've said. I said we don't need an investigation in order to believe the victim.  I think when it comes to consequences, there should be an investigation (and I've said so again and again), but I don't think that should include trying to discredit the accuser (which is what happen would happen in the court room). 

 

Again, I'm not sure what other kind of evidence you expect to come forth.  And if the lack of it means you don't believe her, well, I've got problems with that attitude. 

I'm not talking about a courtroom, I'm talking about the Twins and MLB looking into the matter and coming to a reasoned and researched conclusion. The only times I've seen you mention any sort of vetting is to claim it will attack/discredit the accuser, and force the revisitation of past trauma (this is potentially true.) Rereading your posts I've gotten no indication that you view an investigation as anything other than an inessential and humiliating ordeal for an accuser. I certainly can sympathize with the emotional difficulty but we'll disagree on the utility of searching for all particulars pertinent to the accusation. What you're missing is that some aren't comfortable arriving where you already are with what little is known. Again, you're entitled to judge as you will, just as others are allowed to withhold judgement until more information is available. 

 

Don't put words in my mouth. I think the bigger "problem," is making intimidating statements towards those who aren't 100% in step with you....

[Vanimal46]

I mean I went back down there the next day to talk to some folks, who denied it, even though their friends said they heard what happened. The 10 minute thing and Twins daily access in her story didn’t really add up. I really don’t think she realized how big this would get. It needs to be taken seriously and investigated

Then that's wrong if they denied it ever happening. I've not been in a situation like that before. I'm fairly certain if I saw an altercation with a gun, and shots fired, I'd stay hidden. Especially in times like these where mass shootings unfortunately become common occurrence in America...

 

If police questioned me though I wouldn't deny seeing guns and shots fired.