Miguel Sano accused of assault by photographer

[Obsvr]

 

Results and evidence from a thorough investigation. Why do we as a society need to rush to judgment and ruin someone's credibility/livelihood? Right now unless there's other stories I haven't read is a he said/she said account of events.

 

Pretty much this.

 

Like I said...this happened in a mall.  I have no doubt all or some of this is on a security camera.  Seems pretty easy to find out what happened.

 

 

[drjim]

The quotes sound like Sano was speaking through his attorney, or with statements prepared for him.

Can't really fault him, he's not a native English speaker.

 

I believe the accusation. I fear this could get ugly if there is no other corroborating evidence or other accusations.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 But deferring judgment and demanding an investigation--as I said above--shifts the judgment of Sano's credibility to the accuser--which is a big part of the reason victims are reluctant to step forward in the first place.

 

Part of why our court systems "defers judgment" is so that the credibility of all parties is a matter of record.  It's why we have proceedings for all sorts of crimes that can be difficult to prove.

 

Our system needs to do a better job about the process of determining the victim's credibility (so as not to make the victim feel re-victimized) but the credibility of both is important.  I'd suggest that all Van is doing is asking for is not a rush to judgment of the accused.  That is a fundamental idea in our nation.  One I strongly support and find crucial to true justice.

 

I would suggest we endeavor to avoid a rush to judgment while also supporting the victim in telling their story, taking it seriously, and pursuing it's truth.  This false dilemma that we can't have both due process and respect for victims is dangerously swinging back and forth in our society right now.  We should all be better, and smarter, about this.  (And we can start by not making Twitter our judge, jury, and executioner)

[Sssuperdave]

 

Can't really fault him, he's not a native English speaker.

 

I don't fault him for speaking through an attorney, but I absolutely fault him for this statement if he did in fact perpetrate the assault.  

[slash129]

Interestingly, I saw that Trevor Plouffe tweeted that he believes her and has her back. Not that we shouldn't believe her regardless, but this makes me wonder if Sano has a history of this type of behavior that other players have been aware of in the past.

Oh great, a suggestion of a history of behavior ... Wait until these types of things get lost in translation ... {Shaking head}

[DaveW]

Since Sano is denying it, then for better or worse MLB and the Twins need to wait until an investigation is done before any punishment comes out.

 

While I do always believe the victim in these stories, it’s imporrant to note that every once in awhile the accused is proven innocent (see the recent thing with the Oklahoma Running back)

 

Plenty of time for the investigation to be done prior to ST, and then whatever punishments need to be dolled out will.

[slash129]

Yes we have.

 

"I unequivocally deny the allegation made against me today — it never happened"

 

http://www.tmz.com/2017/12/28/miguel-sano-denies-assaulting-female-photographer/

My bad ... I hadn't read that yet.

[SirLoin]

 

Pretty much this.

 

Like I said...this happened in a mall.  I have no doubt all or some of this is on a security camera.  Seems pretty easy to find out what happened.

 

Depends on how long they maintain their footage....They may only keep a year or so, depending on the policy.

[Vanimal46]

But what kind of evidence? I'm not sure we'll see video camera evidence, or eye witness accounts. This sounds like it happened in some internal corridor where there weren't a lot of people (or any one else present), and what witnesses do exist (agent/boss) are complicit if the allegations are true. It's wishful thinking that there will be any hard evidence. And what if there is no hard evidence, do you still withhold judgment?

 

Judgment doesn't mean you snatch away Sano's livelihood; it means you acknowledge that these events likely happened, and this person was likely victimized. Consequences can come later. But deferring judgment and demanding an investigation--as I said above--shifts the judgment of Sano's credibility to the accuser--which is a big part of the reason victims are reluctant to step forward in the first place.

Frankly I don't know what kind of evidence... Video would be obvious concrete evidence. The whole thought process of people that do this kind of stuff is lost on me. I wouldn't ever think to look around, ensure there's not cameras or people around and make that kind of move on someone.

 

I rely on people that handle these cases every day in their profession to make my judgment...

 

Please don't take this as me not believing her account. Most likely it's true since there isn't anything for her to gain sharing the stoey.

 

But the damage is already done on Sano's reputation. Even on this thread some are calling for him to be cut immediately from the team. I'm not comfortable making that judgment right this second when I just read this story an hour ago.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Part of why our court systems "defers judgment" is so that the credibility of all parties is a matter of record.  It's why we have proceedings for all sorts of crimes that can be difficult to prove.

 

Our system needs to do a better job about the process of determining the victim's credibility (so as not to make the victim feel re-victimized) but the credibility of both is important.  I'd suggest that all Van is doing is asking for is not a rush to judgment of the accused.  That is a fundamental idea in our nation.  One I strongly support and find crucial to true justice.

 

I would suggest we endeavor to avoid a rush to judgment while also supporting the victim in telling their story, taking it seriously, and pursuing it's truth.  This false dilemma that we can't have both due process and respect for victims is dangerously swinging back and forth in our society right now.  We should all be better, and smarter, about this.  (And we can start by not making Twitter our judge, jury, and executioner)

Due process is for those who face criminal liability--who face actual prison time--a serious consequence which unfortunately asks us to weigh re-traumatizing the victim against the rights of the accused.  Sano's reputation, nor his job, are not protected by due process--and I do not think we need to investigate the credibility of the accuser to protect Sano's reputation or job. 

 

Let's be clear, we can judge Sano, without needing to execute him.  We can acknowledge that the victim is probably telling the truth, without jumping to what precisely the consequences for Sano will be.  I see no reason to withhold judgment, in this case, but I see plenty of reason to be very careful in dispensing consequences for Sano.

[drivlikejehu]

I don't doubt that Sano did something wrong, but I think it's pretty hard to tell the degree of severity at this point. It doesn't really make sense to me that he would try and fail to force himself on someone with like 10% of his physical strength over a period of ~ 10 minutes.

 

There is a huge difference between a 'simple' assault - grabbing a woman's wrist out of frustration that she's not responding to his advances - and attempted rape. While the former is inexcusable and should be punished, the latter is downright horrifying. 

 

I can't really say what makes sense as a punishment when there is legitimate uncertainty about material aspects of what happened.

 

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Frankly I don't know what kind of evidence... Video would be obvious concrete evidence. The whole thought process of people that do this kind of stuff is lost on me. I wouldn't ever think to look around, ensure there's not cameras or people around and make that kind of move on someone.

I rely on people that handle these cases every day in their profession to make my judgment...

Please don't take this as me not believing her account. Most likely it's true since there isn't anything for her to gain sharing the stoey.

But the damage is already done on Sano's reputation. Even on this thread some are calling for him to be cut immediately from the team. I'm not comfortable making that judgment right this second when I just read this story an hour ago.

I think we need to separate a judgment (that Sano assaulted the victim) from the consequence (cutting/suspending/rehab/beheading).  We also have to come to grips that there's likely no hard evidence, and no eye-witnesses--again, this is how abusers (not that Sano is a habitual one) work--they do so out of sight with people whom others are unlikely to believe.  I'd temper your call for an investigation with how abuser's victimize and have long gotten away with it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Depends on how long they maintain their footage....They may only keep a year or so, depending on the policy.

Or much less than that. Video consumes massive amounts of space. Companies I've worked with in the past often saved only ~30 days of recordings. I can't recall one that went over 90 days.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Let's be clear, we can judge Sano, without needing to execute him.  We can acknowledge that the victim is probably telling the truth, without jumping to what precisely the consequences for Sano will be.  I see no reason to withhold judgment, in this case, but I see plenty of reason to be very careful in dispensing consequences for Sano.

 

You keep suggesting we separate the judgment and the consequence, yet we already have evidence in this thread for how quickly that escalates. 

 

Those who are quick to determine the judgment are quick to dole out the consequences as well.  And our first reactions are rarely our best ones.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 

 It doesn't really make sense to me that he would try and fail to force himself on someone with like 10% of his physical strength over a period of ~ 10 minutes.

I've seen this in a number of comment threads.  He wants her to relent.  He doesn't want to actually force her, but he wants to apply enough force so that she relents and he can do what he wants.   Of course Sano could probably throw her around like a rag doll; that's not what she's accusing him of--he was trying to kiss her, and clearly he wanted her to allow it, if not to kiss him back.

[SF Twins Fan]

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/twins-star-miguel-sano-has-been-accused-of-sexual-assault-by-a-female-photographer/

 

Here is a good run down of everything.

[nicksaviking]

 

You keep suggesting we separate the judgment and the consequence, yet we already have evidence in this thread for how quickly that escalates. 

 

Those who are quick to determine the judgment are quick to dole out the consequences as well.  And our first reactions are rarely our best ones.

 

Well people on this board don't get to dole out the consequences. Judgments are free for all to have under the constitution though.

[ashbury]

Why is it so hard for some men to not be terrible human beings?

My dad is 95 and he persists in offering unwanted comments on their appearance to the young women working at his assisted-living home.

 

You wouldn't think someone that age has much in common with a guy like Sano, but I see a common thread, of the men believing that the women need the validation, and value the attention as a compliment. (The women at the home graciously wave off my apologies on his behalf when I'm there, saying "oh, he's just so sweet" - but he's no physical threat to them either. At 95, it's more pity than anger that results.)

[Tom Froemming]

I usually like to leave stuff like this to the pros. Here's Phil Miller's article for the STrib.

 

I believe the accuser, have no reason why not to, and I've been very vocal about that on Twitter. What does she have to gain? But I'd just like to add this to the conversation ...

 

Sano lost his one-week old daughter in late 2014 and admitted to having suicidal thoughts while recovering from that loss. From the sound of it, this incident was less than a year later.

 

I'm not trying to defend Sano's alleged actions, but I bring that up for two reasons, 1) He may have been in a dark place at that time. That doesn't justify anything, but think we can all sympathize with what that might do to a person, and 2) assuming the accuser knew about that loss, could it be possible that had something to do with why she didn't go public at the time?

 

That I don't know. I will say if that was me, and I knew how much pain he had endured, I might be more likely to think of just trying to let it go and move on instead of shoveling another load of pain onto his life (even if he deserved it).

 

Just something to consider.

[drjim]

I don't fault him for speaking through an attorney, but I absolutely fault him for this statement if he did in fact perpetrate the assault.

Agree. And denials like this are often followed up by additional allegations.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well people on this board don't get to dole out the consequences. Judgments are free for all to have under the constitution though.

 

Social media is far more powerful than that.  And is, actively, determining the consequences on a range of offenses.

 

Judge away and if you have the self discipline to leave the consequences to the appropriate party....by all means.  But that is very much not the case in most social media.

 

It's quite naive, and unfair to the discussion, to pretend social media mobs aren't effectively determining consequences.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 

You keep suggesting we separate the judgment and the consequence, yet we already have evidence in this thread for how quickly that escalates. 

 

Those who are quick to determine the judgment are quick to dole out the consequences as well.  And our first reactions are rarely our best ones.

Good thing we're not the decision makers and can't really institute any consequences (for his job).   As far as Sano's reputation/fame, that which (social) media giveth, it can also taketh away.   Sano isn't entitled to fame or reputation, it's because of the media, that he has such.  If the mob were fair, we'd be reading about all the awesome teachers and law enforcement officers and doctors on twitter, but it's not; it's petty.

[bunsen82]

This will become a tough case to prove.  At most there is only a possible assault, the other is without further evidence in this case, which there very well could be the burden of proof is on the accuser.  With her being a photographer there should be pictures of bruising, to prove an assault occurred, without that likely there is not enough to prove anything occurred.  In this situation what if the 10 minutes was really 30 seconds (even though I am sure it felt like an eternity), and what if he didn't realize the pressure he was exerting on the wrist, and she wasn't truly saying a firm no and he was trying to encourage the situation, then this is a completely different story.  Either way I am hoping there is corroborating information for either side of the story, because right now it will just turn into a mess for both individuals. 

[Vanimal46]

This will become a tough case to prove. At most there is only a possible assault, the other is without further evidence in this case, which there very well could be the burden of proof is on the accuser. With her being a photographer there should be pictures of bruising, to prove an assault occurred, without that likely there is not enough to prove anything occurred. In this situation what if the 10 minutes was really 30 seconds (even though I am sure it felt like an eternity), and what if he didn't realize the pressure he was exerting on the wrist, and she wasn't truly saying a firm no and he was trying to encourage the situation, then this is a completely different story. Either way I am hoping there is corroborating information for either side of the story, because right now it will just turn into a mess for both individuals.

Good point about possible pictures being evidence. In her case I hope she did take some to be proactive in proving her case.

[drivlikejehu]

 

I've seen this in a number of comment threads.  He wants her to relent.  He doesn't want to actually force her, but he wants to apply enough force so that she relents and he can do what he wants.   Of course Sano could probably throw her around like a rag doll; that's not what she's accusing him of--he was trying to kiss her, and clearly he wanted her to allow it, if not to kiss him back.

 

Well her statement says that she fought him for 10 minutes as he tried to pull her into the bathroom. I don't think its fair to reconstruct her statement to make the allegations more straightforward.

 

edited to add: and in follow-ups, she mentioned that she's a boxer, and that her physical prowess basically was the reason she successfully resisted. 

 

I believe that she believes that, but it doesn't sound quite right.

[nicksaviking]

 

I've seen this in a number of comment threads.  He wants her to relent.  He doesn't want to actually force her, but he wants to apply enough force so that she relents and he can do what he wants.   Of course Sano could probably throw her around like a rag doll; that's not what she's accusing him of--he was trying to kiss her, and clearly he wanted her to allow it, if not to kiss him back.

 

Yeah, it's basically the efforts of every male perusing a woman in movies up until a decade or so ago which we all used to either laugh at or cheer but now shamefully acknowledge how awful we were for doing so.

 

I mean, good lord, 1960's James Bond was a serial sexual assaulter. We looked at persistence as a trademark of hard work and a strong will instead of an imposition upon someone just trying to say no. Shame on us for thinking that was romantic or even comical once upon a time. It's not like we as the public didn't help perpetuate this when we pay good money at the movie theater to watch Indiana Jones forcibly kiss Marion and cheer when she finally relents.

[Comrade Bork]

He denies it unequivocally. Is he seeing those millions fade away or is he actually innocent?

 

I'm inclined to believe the person that wasn't fawned over as a phenom athlete at 15.

[Craig Arko]

Let due process do it's thing; if the charge(s) are found to be valid, this sounds like a matter for the criminal justice system. I find it hard to imagine that the woman victim is making any of this up, but will still hold to the presumption of innocence in the meantime.

 

 

[strumdatjaguar]

You've seen postings online, and many of you are convinced you believe the accusation.   The more prudent and fair course is to give Mr. Sano an opportunity to respond as part of a responsible investigation by the Twins Management.  That was my first thought.  My second thought was that such an accusation paints a terrifying picture of this big man forcing a woman into submitting to his sexual demands - what a #%@*!.  My third thought was that Twins fans should be thankful that the team has many options in the infield and should stop considering trading Gordon, Javier, Lewis, etc, The team may need to jettison a player who can't control his actions and libido any better than he can control his diet.  Then again - maybe that was really my first thought and only thereafter did I start thinking about being fair.   Then I just gave in and thought -move Polanco to third and hope Gordon wins the SS job in ST (otherwise, Adrianza).     Frustration and anger!

[strumdatjaguar]

Tough case to prove in a criminal trial.   This is a report of activity two years ago.   I suspect this will play out as a disciplinary matter with the Twins and MLB.