Miguel Sano accused of assault by photographer

[TheLeviathan]

 

Yes. And if it was, say, 15 seconds, would also make a big difference.

It is the most important detail in determining what Sano did, what his motivation might have been, and how he should be punished. It's not a good look that she backtracked on it already.

 

I also don't think it's a good look to be parsing out her recollection of the time on a message board.  Much like doling out the consequences is not our job, neither is investigating the incident.  Part of what makes it hard for women to come out with this information is how quick we are to dissect everything about what they said. 

 

We should allow a fair, just process to happen for all sides involved. 

[Doomtints]

 

Yes. And if it was, say, 15 seconds, would also make a big difference.

It is the most important detail in determining what Sano did, what his motivation might have been, and how he should be punished. It's not a good look that she backtracked on it already.

 

I disagree. If someone punches someone once, that's assault, and that only takes one second. 

 

Laying hands on someone is never OK. Time is not a factor, you're overthinking it.

 

As for his "punishment" -- I'm not thinking in those terms. It's not my place. But let's be real, regardless of whether it was 1 minute or 30, the punishment will be the same: a short suspension, public service, and sensitivity training. He's not going to jail, he's not getting sued, he's not getting fired, he's not getting deported, etc., etc. Only if multiple people step forward will this become anything more than an embarrassment for him and the club.

[Mr. Brooks]

Assault

At Common Law, an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

An assault is carried out by a threat of bodily harm coupled with an apparent, present ability to cause the harm. It is both a crime and a tort and, therefore, may result in either criminal or civil liability. Generally, the common law definition is the same in criminal and Tort Law. There is, however, an additional Criminal Law category of assault consisting of an attempted but unsuccessful Battery.

Statutory definitions of assault in the various jurisdictions throughout the United States are not substantially different from the common-law definition.

 

I would argue no one has ever had a charge of assault of just holding someone's hands or upper arm unless it causes harm - bruising cut ect, or in an intentionally restraining manner. She claims the arm was purple after but no bruising. Again no harm no assault. Also Mr. Brooks we are arguing two separate points. I am saying something inconsequestial such as unintentionally restraining an arm really for 30 seconds doesn't rise to the level of criminal or even a violation of business law. More than 90 seconds and this is being done more against her will, there is no way this can still be construed as unintentional and we may have some minor punishments. Again minor, there was very little harm that occurred in this case. Yes it was traumatic for her, but again her threshold is different from criminal and business regulations.

How on earth do you unintentionally grab and hold for 30 seconds someone's wrists? Keep your hands to yourself, is it really so hard?

 

There does not need to be actual harm to charge assault. People are charged all the time, without even touching the person. There only needs to be threat of (can be implied, doesn't have to be explicit) and ability to inflict harm.

[Doomtints]

 

Doomtints, so I would pose the question what punishment should there be for a male holding a women's wrist unintentionally tighter than he should have, making 2 attempts to kiss her, but not following through after no reciprocated, the whole event taking 30 seconds and him leaving and not doing anything else.   What is truly wrong in this case other than him needing to A. read signals better and B.  needing to understand his own strength.  If this goes on for 10 minutes then yes, that is way too long,  I would say anything more than 90 seconds to 2 minutes is pushing the line into a physical assault situation without that we don't even potentially have that claim. 

 

I agree that 10 minutes sounds unlikely to impossible by a factor of ten, but the time involved is not the point at all. It's never OK to lay your hands on someone else. Assault is assault. We're going down a rabbit hole by thinking about a detail that isn't important.

 

Note that when the "fight or flight" response kicks in, the perception of time changes. Time slows down. The point is -- she was scared out of her mind and felt she was fighting for her life. Sano is a BIG GUY! To her, it clearly felt like an eternity, this is why she wrote "10 minutes." This should be our takeaway instead of using this detail for to attack the victim's story. 

[drjim]

I disagree. If someone punches someone once, that's assault, and that only takes one second.

 

Laying hands on someone is never OK. Time is not a factor, you're overthinking it.

 

As for his "punishment" -- I'm not thinking in those terms. It's not my place. But let's be real, regardless of whether it was 1 minute or 30, the punishment will be the same: a short suspension, public service, and sensitivity training. He's not going to jail, he's not getting sued, he's not getting fired. Only if multiple people step forward will this become anything more than an embarrassment for him and the club.

What does punching have to do with this story?

[Mr. Brooks]

The issue becomes if the time changes to 30 seconds or 1-2 minutes, from 10, then is anything that she stated factually true, this is the slippery slope that she is going to enter because she potentially made some misstatements and her word is her only support at this time.

Did your father in law actually have a cardiac event, who knows, since the pace of events was wrong.

Of course, that's absurd to suggest.

 

If I were an investigator (I'm not), I'd frankly be suspicious if a statement regarding a traumatic event from two years ago DIDN'T have any discrepancies or misstatements.

Regarding the burden of proof to convict in a criminal trial, of course those discrepancies matter. But they don't suggest the incident never happened at all.

[bunsen82]

Again what is the harm being threatened or implied,  she has her perception, but trying to kiss her (not even following through is not assault.  If I am holding my child for 30 seconds as they are trying to run into a street is not assault.  Who is to say she was truly resisting the whole time. What if the hands are there, she is not pulling away, and he is thinking its okay,  where is the harm.  Again this is probably above my pay grade and yours, but in either case this is a very very minor criminal issue at worst.  At worst a couple games suspension on the baseball side.  

 

What did he truly do wrong and what should the punishment be.  

[Mr. Brooks]

What does punching have to do with this story?

Some people seem to be suggesting (others outright stating) that there is some minimum time you have to be physically touching someone to qualify as assault.

[bunsen82]

 

Did your father in law actually have a cardiac event, who knows, since the pace of events was wrong.
Of course, that's absurd to suggest.

If I were an investigator (I'm not), I'd frankly be suspicious if a statement regarding a traumatic event from two years ago DIDN'T have any discrepancies or misstatements.
Regarding the burden of proof to convict in a criminal trial, of course those discrepancies matter. But they don't suggest the incident never happened at all.

So Mr. Brooks, do you think it is fair to Sano to potentially grossly misstate the time on this issue and also to be labeled of sexual abuse or a predator.  That is what he is being labeled as.  No charges have been brought forth, no investigation completed and he already has those attached to him, without validating her story.  If you fully believe it then fine, but you also have to admit there are some holes in her story which makes it difficult to say anything actually occurred due to lag in time of two years.

[drjim]

I also don't think it's a good look to be parsing out her recollection of the time on a message board. Much like doling out the consequences is not our job, neither is investigating the incident. Part of what makes it hard for women to come out with this information is how quick we are to dissect everything about what they said.

 

We should allow a fair, just process to happen for all sides involved.

That's fair and probably true, but this is literally a message board set up to discuss things. Nothing said here is going to make a difference on criminal or baseball related punishment.

 

Part of why details are being discussed (at least on my end) is that Betsy herself has discussed the details in subsequent social media interactions. And the 10 minutes, in my mind, is an extremely critical detail on how to think of this assault, and she has already backtracked somewhat. That opens up discussion.

[drjim]

Some people seem to be suggesting (others outright stating) that there is some minimum time you have to be physically touching someone to qualify as assault.

I'm not an expert in law, but I suspect that is true. And punches are looked at differently yhan grabs.

[Doomtints]

 

What does punching have to do with this story?

 

I think if you read past the first sentence fragment of what I wrote this information will be revealed.

[Mr. Brooks]

Again what is the harm being threatened or implied, she has her perception, but trying to kiss her (not even following through is not assault. If I am holding my child for 30 seconds as they are trying to run into a street is not assault. Who is to say she was truly resisting the whole time. What if the hands are there, she is not pulling away, and he is thinking its okay, where is the harm. Again this is probably above my pay grade and yours, but in either case this is a very very minor criminal issue at worst. At worst a couple games suspension on the baseball side.

 

What did he truly do wrong and what should the punishment be.

1) Trying to kiss someone who doesn't want it, is not assault? If you truly believe that, then the only feeling I can muster up is sadness.

 

2)"She has her perception", what does that even mean? Are you implying that you are a better judge of Sano's intentions and motivations than her, despite her being there and you not?

 

3) She stated explicitly that she tried to pull away. What reason do you have to doubt that? Between trying to pull away, resisting his kisses, and screaming, how many more clues does Sano need that she's not interested?

 

4) I have no idea if it will be a criminal issue, nor have I suggested any level of punishment. Those are separate issues than if what Sano did was wrong. As stated by the accuser, there is zero doubt to me that what he did is wrong, and at this point I have no reason to doubt her accusation.

Sano has every reason to deny it, as far as I can tell, she has no reason whatsoever to make it up out of thin air.

 

5) Are you really going to compare holding another adults wrists, in order to try to get them to kiss you, and pull them into a bathroom, to holding your minor child's wrists in order to prevent them from getting hit by a car? Come on, surely you must realize those two scenarios are not at all relevant to each other.

[Mr. Brooks]

So Mr. Brooks, do you think it is fair to Sano to potentially grossly misstate the time on this issue and also to be labeled of sexual abuse or a predator. That is what he is being labeled as. No charges have been brought forth, no investigation completed and he already has those attached to him, without validating her story. If you fully believe it then fine, but you also have to admit there are some holes in her story which makes it difficult to say anything actually occurred due to lag in time of two years.

She has a right to tell her story.

I've never claimed to know if her claim is true.

Withholding judgement until more facts come out is a completely fair and understandable position.

But, that's not what you are doing. You are actively trying to discredit her story, and interpret Sano's intentions to make any possible actions seem defensible.

Those are two very different positions to take.

[Doomtints]

 

I'm not an expert in law, but I suspect that is true. And punches are looked at differently yhan grabs.

 

The law makes no such distinction.

 

https://jux.law/practice-areas/criminal/aggravated-battery-assault/

 

This incident would be classified as fifth degree assault in either scenario. If she ended up in the hospital -- again under either scenario -- it would be third degree assault.  

 

Note you also won't find anything in the law about "ten minutes." The only thing that matters is the amount of harm caused, or even simply threatening harm. Time is irrelevant for assault.

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm not an expert in law, but I suspect that is true. And punches are looked at differently yhan grabs.

It's not true.

It may be a factor in determining degree, but there is no minimum time needed, with anything below being disqualified from being deemed assault.

In fact, physical force isn't even required. Every day people are charged (mainly in domestic assaults) with assault for threatening or implying force to intimidate someone.

[TheLeviathan]

 

That's fair and probably true, but this is literally a message board set up to discuss things. Nothing said here is going to make a difference on criminal or baseball related punishment.

 

Perhaps not here at Twins Daily....but the social media conversations you're referring to on larger platforms might. 

 

In general, I think the scope of which we rely on social media to process these events is quite harmful to everyone involved.  And to society in general.

[drjim]

The law makes no such distinction.

 

https://jux.law/practice-areas/criminal/aggravated-battery-assault/

 

This incident would be classified as fifth degree assault in either scenario. If she ended up in the hospital -- again under either scenario -- it would be third degree assault.

Thanks for the info, that was good clarification. I think a case could be made for 3rd degree if it lasted an extended time.

[drjim]

Perhaps not here at Twins Daily....but the social media conversations you're referring to on larger platforms might.

 

In general, I think the scope of which we rely on social media to process these events is quite harmful to everyone involved. And to society in general.

I agree with this. I would never jump on a larger social media platform to discuss this.

 

This site seems like a good, confined, moderated space to have a discussion.

[drjim]

It's not true.

It may be a factor in determining degree, but there is no minimum time needed, with anything below being disqualified from being deemed assault.

In fact, physical force isn't even required. Every day people are charged (mainly in domestic assaults) with assault for threatening or implying force to intimidate someone.

I was referring to degree (and now found out I was almost certainly wrong in my assumption). I think it pretty clearly was 5th degree assault. But time and force could impact if it is a misdemeanor, gross misdemeanor or a felony.

 

10 minutes also seems like it could lead to attempted kidnapping or something else beyond assault.

[drivlikejehu]

The bar on "assault" is very low, not just in Minnesota but going back to English common law. That's why assuming that Sano did in fact assault her doesn't get very far in terms of considering how the Twins & MLB should react. The details matter, very much including the length of time.

 

For instance, under Betsy's original account, Sano clearly is guilty of kidnapping under MN Statute 609.25, which carries up to 20 years in prison if there was no great bodily harm. It's a very, very serious felony.

 

Grabbing someone's wrist is assault even if it lasts 1 second. But it almost certainly does not qualify as 'confining' someone, and so that would not be kidnapping. Grabbing and actually holding someone, as Betsy described, is kidnapping.

 

Regardless of the fact that the Twins & MLB are not courts of law, it makes sense for the punishment to fit the crime. If Sano committed crimes that would carry 30+ years in prison, and the Twins/MLB believe as much, I don't see how a few week suspension and some classes would suffice.  

[Vanimal46]

Yes. And if it was, say, 15 seconds, would also make a big difference.

 

It is the most important detail in determining what Sano did, what his motivation might have been, and how he should be punished. It's not a good look that she backtracked on it already.

Agreed. That's a huge discrepancy in her prepared story. I would imagine lawyers in Sano's defense will pick that apart. It also makes me wonder if there are other discrepancies in the story. Were they all outside at the time of the assault? Were Betsy and Sano in the hallway while the other 2 men were outside? If it's the latter then that's another error in her original statement.

 

Even small things like these will add up. I wish she is 100% accurate the first time... Because flaws like that could be construed as a false accusation if she's not careful.

[Vanimal46]

Like you drjim I read her statement multiple times throughout the day yesterday and it's clear she wrote all 4 witnesses were outside the building at the time of the assault. Which doesn't match up with Sano's agent's statement that they were inside and he was waiting by the car.

[bunsen82]

1) Trying to kiss someone who doesn't want it, is not assault? If you truly believe that, then the only feeling I can muster up is sadness.

 

2)"She has her perception", what does that even mean? Are you implying that you are a better judge of Sano's intentions and motivations than her, despite her being there and you not?

 

3) She stated explicitly that she tried to pull away. What reason do you have to doubt that? Between trying to pull away, resisting his kisses, and screaming, how many more clues does Sano need that she's not interested?

 

4) I have no idea if it will be a criminal issue, nor have I suggested any level of punishment. Those are separate issues than if what Sano did was wrong. As stated by the accuser, there is zero doubt to me that what he did is wrong, and at this point I have no reason to doubt her accusation.

Sano has every reason to deny it, as far as I can tell, she has no reason whatsoever to make it up out of thin air.

 

5) Are you really going to compare holding another adults wrists, in order to try to get them to kiss you, and pull them into a bathroom, to holding your minor child's wrists in order to prevent them from getting hit by a car? Come on, surely you must realize those two scenarios are not at all relevant to each other.

1. Misreading signals going in to attempt a kiss and being denied no is not assault in my book. How many high school boys and girls could be charged if that were the case.  If he is physically manhandling her to try and kiss her yes that is a different story.  I think we can all agree that point.

 

2.  You think I am discrediting her story.  I disagree, I am saying it very much appears she is embellishing some of the details, and any imbellishment is ultimately a lie and can then taint all other claims she has made.  Misstatements or not, in the public opinion th hubbub would not have been created if she said he was holding on to me for 2 minutes .  The salacious line is he held me against my will trying to push me into the bathroom for 10 minutes with me yelling, screaming, nobody coming to my help and he finally gives up and I have no real injuries to show for it.  

 

3.  I disagree that she has a right to tell her story in the format she did.  Why does she have the right to attack his character by her claims only. As I said, an individuals perception of reality, may not actually be reality, but she has put this out as fact with her version only.   Do what the person with matt lauer did, go to the company keep your name out of it, have the investigation completed and be done with it.   To me it appears she wanted the attention right or wrong.  She wanted to be part of the movement, and she also wanted to publicly shame him whether she admits it or not.  Otherwise she would just say it was an anonymous Twins or sports player.  Which by the way would not have caused the headlines and may or may not of caused an investigation.

[Comrade Bork]

1. Misreading signals going in to attempt a kiss and being denied no is not assault in my book. How many high school boys and girls could be charged if that were the case. If he is physically manhandling her to try and kiss her yes that is a different story. I think we can all agree that point.

 

2. You think I am discrediting her story. I disagree, I am saying it very much appears she is embellishing some of the details, and any imbellishment is ultimately a lie and can then taint all other claims she has made. Misstatements or not, in the public opinion th hubbub would not have been created if she said he was holding on to me for 2 minutes . The salacious line is he held me against my will trying to push me into the bathroom for 10 minutes with me yelling, screaming, nobody coming to my help and he finally gives up and I have no real injuries to show for it.

 

3. I disagree that she has a right to tell her story in the format she did. Why does she have the right to attack his character by her claims only. As I said, an individuals perception of reality, may not actually be reality, but she has put this out as fact with her version only. Do what the person with matt lauer did, go to the company keep your name out of it, have the investigation completed and be done with it. To me it appears she wanted the attention right or wrong. She wanted to be part of the movement, and she also wanted to publicly shame him whether she admits it or not. Otherwise she would just say it was an anonymous Twins or sports player. Which by the way would not have caused the headlines and may or may not of caused an investigation.

The whole point is to believe the victims version and not the people in the position of power. The victims don't want to ruin careers or lives but get justice for their assaults.

 

What is she going to do? Call up Falvine and lodge a complaint? Perpetrators of sexual assault deserve the publics scorn because their actions are vile. If there are no public repercussions, what's to stop Sano from continuing on?

[one_eyed_jack]

A few points about false accusations.

 

First, there is no real consensus about how often they occur, but even if you take the oft-quoted 5-6% figure, that’s too common for me to consider it “incredibly” or “extremely” rare as I’ve seen it characterized in some places.   Asian-Americans constitute 4.8% of the  US  population – would you say that Asian-Americans are “incredibly rare”?   I don’t believe this is a false accusation, but I object to the approach of cavalierly waving away the possibility off the bat in this case or any other because of how rare it supposedly is.

Second, these cases tend to be much more nuanced than the simplicities they are often reduced to due to Twitter’s character limit.   There is a world of possibilities between “Everything the victim says is true and accurate” and “She made the whole thing up for money, fame and attention.”   The fact that an accuser isn’t lying doesn’t mean that everything she says is true and accurate.  It may genuinely reflect her perception of what happened, but that doesn’t mean it’s correct.  Some details may be intentionally or unintentionally exaggerated or omitted.  

Third, while “believe the victim” is an understandable and well-intentioned approach, I think it’s dangerous.    It should be more along the lines of “take the accuser seriously”.   While it’s true that message boards and Twitter are not courts of law, and the accused does not get the presumption of innocence or any other rights in the court of public opinion, it would be naïve to think that social media mobs have no real impact.   Private companies certainly take public perception into account when deciding on the fates of their accused employees.  And when these cases go to trial, the guilt of the defendant is decided by a jury of the same regular folks who join the online mobs.   If you buy into the “believe the victim” mantra, why should you as a juror even bother listening to the evidence presented at trial? 

Fourth, while I don’t see evidence that it’s much of a factor in this case, the race factor cannot be ignored in general.  Miguel Sano’s stature and resources make this an atypical case.  But do you think your average black man accused of sexually assaulting a white woman can get a fair trial in this country?  And if not, what impact do you think drilling “believe the victim” into everyone’s heads does to that problem?   When To Kill a Mockingbird is assigned in schools today, do they teach kids that Atticus Finch is the bad guy because he questioned a rape accuser?

Here’s an article about a case where a bunch of these issues collide.  Very different circumstances than Sano's case, but an interesting read that well illustrates the difficulties there can be in resolving these cases.

[Doomtints]

 

The issue becomes if the time changes to 30 seconds or 1-2 minutes, from 10, then is anything that she stated factually true,  this is the slippery slope that she is going to enter because she potentially made some misstatements and her word is her only support at this time. 

 

She isn't suing him or pressing charges.

[drjim]

1. Misreading signals going in to attempt a kiss and being denied no is not assault in my book. How many high school boys and girls could be charged if that were the case. If he is physically manhandling her to try and kiss her yes that is a different story. I think we can all agree that point.

 

2. You think I am discrediting her story. I disagree, I am saying it very much appears she is embellishing some of the details, and any imbellishment is ultimately a lie and can then taint all other claims she has made. Misstatements or not, in the public opinion th hubbub would not have been created if she said he was holding on to me for 2 minutes . The salacious line is he held me against my will trying to push me into the bathroom for 10 minutes with me yelling, screaming, nobody coming to my help and he finally gives up and I have no real injuries to show for it.

 

3. I disagree that she has a right to tell her story in the format she did. Why does she have the right to attack his character by her claims only. As I said, an individuals perception of reality, may not actually be reality, but she has put this out as fact with her version only. Do what the person with matt lauer did, go to the company keep your name out of it, have the investigation completed and be done with it. To me it appears she wanted the attention right or wrong. She wanted to be part of the movement, and she also wanted to publicly shame him whether she admits it or not. Otherwise she would just say it was an anonymous Twins or sports player. Which by the way would not have caused the headlines and may or may not of caused an investigation.

I won't comment on her desire for attention, but I do agree with your last point that the method of the accusation was not wise.

 

She has every right to bring it up on her own time, but she probably should have approached someone in the Twins org, or left the player anonymous in the post. It would have created pressure without creating the instant mess.

 

If no other evidence comes up or no other accusers emerge, this is going to be ugly.

[Doomtints]

 

I won't comment on her desire for attention, but I do agree with your last point that the method of the accusation was not wise.

 

If you frequent Twitter, you know why it was done there. Twitter is where the #metoo movement has been centered.

[drjim]

If you frequent Twitter, you know why it was done there. Twitter is where the #metoo movement has been centered.

I don't read all stories, but I thought most of them were anonymous.

 

The well known men who are being exposed aren't having the accusations start on Twitter. At least not without more evidence backing it up.