Tuesday's Injury Feels Like a Huge One for Byron Buxton

[NYCTK]

Just now, Woof Bronzer said:

The idea that rich and powerful people have zero accountability for their anything they ever do is pounded into us day after day.  Judging by this thread it sure seems to be working.  Who knew "Leaders are responsible for the organizations they run" would someday be a subversive political opinion worthy of ridicule, but that's 2026 America for ya.  

Prepare for it to get even stupider during the lockout. Lots of know-nothing fans will be blaming the players instead of their bosses that initiate it. 

Billionaire Tom Pohlad is planning on locking out his employees on December 1st because he doesn't think he has enough money. And a majority of fans are pathetically going to applaud his actions. 

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, NYCTK said:

Quick question: Who's the CEO of the Minnesota Twins? 

Follow-up question: What is the role of a Chief Executive Officer? 

Quick question: who is the CEO of the NY Mets?

Follow-up question: are all businesses structured exactly the same?

🙄

[LA Vikes Fan]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

You seem to be under some weird allusion that Owners can't be actively involved with the day to day.  Tom not only is involved with the day to day operations - he is also involved with the effectively any big decision.  It was clear his style is more of a micro manager.  So it is what it is.  Trying to ignore that fact seems silly.  

“It’s just my style and the way I want to run this organization going forward and what I think is best,” he said. “Honestly, I don’t think that anybody else can. … I can’t outsource earning back the trust of our fans or of our employees or of the players. I think that work’s got to be done by me. So that’s what I’m trying to do.” -  Tom Pohlad February

 

This quote has little if anything to do with making personnel decisions. He is working on "earning back the trust of the fans". That is exactly what the CEO should do - big picture customer relations and brand management - but it's  far cry from making IL decisions. Remember, he is a CEO, not an absentee owner/controlling shareholder. His job is running the Twins organization, not just sitting back in the owner's suite clipping coupons. None of us shown that they have any idea of how involved he is with day to day decisions. Is he involved in big decisions? Of course he is he's the CEO. Is putting Buxton on the IL a big enough decision for the organization that the CEO is involved in making the decision as compared to just being advised?  No one here knows. 

Look, a know a lot of you hate the Pohlads, And with good reason, I might add. Jim was a mediocrity at running a baseball franchise, Joe was beyond bad, he was a complete disaster. Poor decision maker, zero feel for customer/client relations and communication. Tom is better than Joe and by a wide margin. He gets the "communication thing" and seems at least to genuinely understand that the Twins are nothing without customer loyalty. We don't know if he's involved in personnel decisions but if he is - he gets a B/B- for the trade deadline, an A- for the promotion of Culpepper, and a D or incomplete for the handling of Jenkins. I understand waiting on Jenkins to show you he's ready but he did that 2-3 weeks ago and it's time to get him up. All of those grades are be much better than Joe and frankly better than most of what Jim did, too.  We may actually have found the Pohlad who can tell his elbow from a hole in the ground and he's running the team. Let's not let the well deserved scorn for the family's ownership tenure get int the way of giving a guy who has shown some signs of competence a chance. 

[NYCTK]

Just now, jmlease1 said:

Quick question: who is the CEO of the NY Mets?

Follow-up question: are all businesses structured exactly the same?

🙄

Are you under the assumption that no criticizes Steve Cohen for his Met's failures? Because that would be a bad assumption. 

[Woof Bronzer]

1 minute ago, jmlease1 said:

Quick question: who is the CEO of the NY Mets?

Follow-up question: are all businesses structured exactly the same?

🙄

Steve Cohen and no.  What's your point?

Do you think Steve Cohen has any responsibility for running the Mets?  

[Coach]

The Buck stops here.  Get well soon.

[Coach]

When one door closes another one opens.  Welcome in Walker. 

[jmlease1]

4 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Steve Cohen and no.  What's your point?

Do you think Steve Cohen has any responsibility for running the Mets?  

That comparing a sports team owner to typical business CEO isn't likely very analogous. It's just not how most of these teams work and acting like it's otherwise is being done for other purposes.

Yes, Steve Cohen is ultimately responsible for how the Mets are run...but Steve Cohen doesn't personally run the Mets on a day to day basis. Right?

Maybe Tom Pohlad does...or will, or something else. But him being around a lot more and been much more publicly accessible doesn't mean he's personally acting to run the day to day business of the MN Twins

[Woof Bronzer]

5 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Are you under the assumption that no criticizes Steve Cohen for his Met's failures? Because that would be a bad assumption. 

If you asked Mets fans:  whose fault is this disaster, a) Steve Cohen or b) someone else?

....how many would answer b?  I'm guessing not many?  

[USAFChief]

13 minutes ago, NYCTK said:

Prepare for it to get even stupider during the lockout. Lots of know-nothing fans will be blaming the players instead of their bosses that initiate it. 

Billionaire Tom Pohlad is planning on locking out his employees on December 1st because he doesn't think he has enough money. And a majority of fans are pathetically going to applaud his actions. 

I, for one, hope there's no strike or lockout.

I also hope there's a reasonable salary cap and floor. With real revenue sharing.  MLB desperately needs both. 

If it takes a work stoppage to get there, so be it. 

But we're off topic here.

[NYCTK]

2 minutes ago, LA Vikes Fan said:

Look, a know a lot of you hate the Pohlads, And with good reason ... Tom is better than Joe and by a wide margin.

Based on what are you claiming that? 

"He gets the "communication thing""? Ok. And what about the baseball thing? I feel like understanding the industry is at least as important as being a PR guy.

Because, as much as you might have hated Joe, he was the one in charge (ostensibly) when the Twins finally made the good decision to trade off assets at the 2025 Trade Deadline. And Tom was the one in charge when that rebuild was halted, resulting in a half-measure that left the Minnesota Twins in a worse position both in the short and long term. 

So, no, I don't buy this idea that Tom is clearly better just because he's able to string together words that alleviate fan concerns. For the same reason Tim Brewster is no longer Head Coach of the Minnesota Golden Gophers. 

8 minutes ago, LA Vikes Fan said:

We may actually have found the Pohlad who can tell his elbow from a hole in the ground and he's running the team. Let's not let the well deserved scorn for the family's ownership tenure get int the way of giving a guy who has shown some signs of competence a chance. 

I honestly don't know how you're this naive about the Pohlads. It's the same ownership group, just with a different figurehead. Which is why we've seen no actual change in organizational philosophy in 35 years.

Like father, like son, like nephew, like brother. 

 

[Cris E]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

The idea Tom Pohlad is making IL decisions is next level idiocy. 

Truth.  If he were riding this hard, Ryan would be pitching tonight. 

The owner sets goals and talks to the press and gives $20 to fans when announcers sit in the outfield, but as far as actual baseball stuff he's only going to get involved when lots of money is at stake (Correa contracts) or they are at a whiteboard in Florida in December.  Once he's communicated his goals and set the budget the baseball guys have to take over and make it work. 

Make no mistake, his shadow looms over Zell every day, but Zell and Shelton are the ones letting Buxton play every day. Tom may actually be asking if a sub-.600 OPS is helping much, but when Byron can roll a single past the SS and get the fanbase excited you know what direction everyone in the office is going to vote.  This season has been about hope, and that can be laid at Pohlad's feet.

[NYCTK]

3 minutes ago, Woof Bronzer said:

If you asked Mets fans:  whose fault is this disaster, a) Steve Cohen or b) someone else?

....how many would answer b?  I'm guessing not many?  

If you ask "does Steve Cohen bear responsibility for the failures of the Mets" you'd get a pretty strong majority saying yes! 

You don't see a lot of fans reflexively defending Steve Cohen, because that would be ridiculous! As it is to defend Mr. Pohlad.

[Hpyeet]

When older, broken down players start dragging down results, bring in your best younger talent.  Buxton 0 for last 18 with RISP.  He looked bad last night, struck out on a ball a foot outside.  It's not that complicated.  IL Buxton indefinitely until he's 110%, which may never happen.  Let's see.......who do the Twins have......a great outfielder who could fill in.............hmmmmm, gee, well I'm stumped.

[DJL44]

One day too late to claim Outman off waivers…

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

28 minutes ago, LA Vikes Fan said:

This quote has little if anything to do with making personnel decisions. He is working on "earning back the trust of the fans". That is exactly what the CEO should do - big picture customer relations and brand management - but it's  far cry from making IL decisions. Remember, he is a CEO, not an absentee owner/controlling shareholder. His job is running the Twins organization, not just sitting back in the owner's suite clipping coupons. None of us shown that they have any idea of how involved he is with day to day decisions. Is he involved in big decisions? Of course he is he's the CEO. Is putting Buxton on the IL a big enough decision for the organization that the CEO is involved in making the decision as compared to just being advised?  No one here knows. 

Look, a know a lot of you hate the Pohlads, And with good reason, I might add. Jim was a mediocrity at running a baseball franchise, Joe was beyond bad, he was a complete disaster. Poor decision maker, zero feel for customer/client relations and communication. Tom is better than Joe and by a wide margin. He gets the "communication thing" and seems at least to genuinely understand that the Twins are nothing without customer loyalty. We don't know if he's involved in personnel decisions but if he is - he gets a B/B- for the trade deadline, an A- for the promotion of Culpepper, and a D or incomplete for the handling of Jenkins. I understand waiting on Jenkins to show you he's ready but he did that 2-3 weeks ago and it's time to get him up. All of those grades are be much better than Joe and frankly better than most of what Jim did, too.  We may actually have found the Pohlad who can tell his elbow from a hole in the ground and he's running the team. Let's not let the well deserved scorn for the family's ownership tenure get int the way of giving a guy who has shown some signs of competence a chance. 

I don't hate Tom.  I also don't think the Pohlad's are evil. You are also extrapolating much more regarding IL decisions than what I intended.  I could discuss more on that but I think I've made it clear in this thread how I perceived that decision making occurring.  The Twins are a smaller market team.  Tom was naive and drastically unprepared and had unrealistic expectations- he admitted as much in July.  Tom makes it very clear in this live interview he feels the landscape has changed and Falvey's time as leading the organization had come to an end.  Falvey came out with an interview either right before or right after.  His statement basically was Tom's management style was much different than Joe's and it just became clear that a separation was the best outcome.  Tom and Falvey admitted they could not coexist.   Now other assumptions can be included - but these are the interviews and statements that came out in January.  Tom has continually reinforced with additional statements and being much more front and center and much more actively involved and engaged - which he stated in this interview.    The specific quote shows how Tom planned to manage and achieve - specifically the fan engagement, regaining the players trust but coincides with all the other statements on how he was going to manage.   The quotes are not finding a smoking gun situation as to how daily decisions are made, but they paint a very clear picture how it likely occurs.   

For me this discussion has taken its course.   Having taken several management courses its clear Tom is more of an authoritarian and micromanager in his management style.  All management styles can work, but all have strengths and weaknesses.    I personally am much more of a delegator and democratic or laissez-faire in my management style - but even if those are your baselines you often have to change from time to time.  Often with disciplining or handling a significant issue I would tend to become more authoritarian.  I am sure Tom delegates at time and maybe is delegate more to Zoll than I think he is doing- at the very least its much more collaborative than anything we have had before.     

[HarmonK03]

1 hour ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Who hired those employees?  

Does the CEO have the power to replace incompetent employees with better ones?  

Yes he does and I have never disputed.  I have been saying for months that I wanted a Senior Advisor brought in until he gets rid of Zoll.  The timing of Falvey's leaving did make it difficult to make any major changes but that is why a Senior Advisor would have been a good idea.

But the idea that Tom P. is saying who to put on the IL or that he wants them to trade for Tommy Nance is ludicrous.  He gives direction and JZ identifies how to carry to carry out that direction and what moves and players will help him meet the objectives given to him.

[Craig Arko]

38 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Craig - yes at times we have to make assumptions.  However there is ample statements and facts on the record in regards not only how active Tom is involved in the decision making the process and the day to day operations.  The assumption that Tom has a laissez fair or hands off approach to decision making and delegates everything to Zoll has no basis that the factual record shows.  Tom has been clear since Day 1 he was going to be active as the face of the franchise and in the decision making process. Falvey left and stated this was the exact reason that he felt him and Tom could not work together for the future.  Falvey preferred to lead the organization with more of a hands of approach from ownership similar to Joe - and I would argue with a more realistic idea of what a successful season likely was.    

No, we always have to make assumptions. That’s the basis of any rational argument. The point is being able to recognize (and be able to examine) what are assumptions and what are conclusions. And then recognizing that the conclusions are only as good as the assumptions. Right?

There’s this gizmo I learned studying formal logic with many names (I learned it as the ‘Munchhausen trilemma’) that posits all rational arguments must rely on feet of sand. I kinda like it. It’s an assumption, of course.

Anyway, I have no clue as to what Pohlad, Falvey, and Zoll might have discussed in private, so I draw no conclusions. And continue to mourn Dolly.

[ashbury]

19 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

One day too late to claim Outman off waivers…

Bullet.  Dodged.

[weitz41]

Tristan Gray's or Matt Wallner's reaction.

[Hawkeye Bean Counter]

25 minutes ago, Craig Arko said:

No, we always have to make assumptions. That’s the basis of any rational argument. The point is being able to recognize (and be able to examine) what are assumptions and what are conclusions. And then recognizing that the conclusions are only as good as the assumptions. Right?

There’s this gizmo I learned studying formal logic with many names (I learned it as the ‘Munchhausen trilemma’) that posits all rational arguments must rely on feet of sand. I kinda like it. It’s an assumption, of course.

Anyway, I have no clue as to what Pohlad, Falvey, and Zoll might have discussed in private, so I draw no conclusions. And continue to mourn Dolly.

Tom and Falvey made clear statements on how the relationship and expectations had changed and Tom's management style.  Those aren't assumptions those are facts.  How it relates to to the daily decision making.  I can't find the specific podcast but I believe it was the skor north podcast and maybe multiple podcasts.  There was a discussion right after Nance was traded for.  They discussed even if Tom was not actively involved with the specific decision to trade for Nance - although they speculated he was - Zoll knew exactly what Tom wanted by Tom's statements to the media stating why do they have to wait til the trade deadline to trade for players.       

[HarmonK03]

41 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

I don't hate Tom.  I also don't think the Pohlad's are evil. You are also extrapolating much more regarding IL decisions than what I intended.  I could discuss more on that but I think I've made it clear in this thread how I perceived that decision making occurring.  The Twins are a smaller market team.  Tom was naive and drastically unprepared and had unrealistic expectations- he admitted as much in July.  Tom makes it very clear in this live interview he feels the landscape has changed and Falvey's time as leading the organization had come to an end.  Falvey came out with an interview either right before or right after.  His statement basically was Tom's management style was much different than Joe's and it just became clear that a separation was the best outcome.  Tom and Falvey admitted they could not coexist.   Now other assumptions can be included - but these are the interviews and statements that came out in January.  Tom has continually reinforced with additional statements and being much more front and center and much more actively involved and engaged - which he stated in this interview.    The specific quote shows how Tom planned to manage and achieve - specifically the fan engagement, regaining the players trust but coincides with all the other statements on how he was going to manage.   The quotes are not finding a smoking gun situation as to how daily decisions are made, but they paint a very clear picture how it likely occurs.   

For me this discussion has taken its course.   Having taken several management courses its clear Tom is more of an authoritarian and micromanager in his management style.  All management styles can work, but all have strengths and weaknesses.    I personally am much more of a delegator and democratic or laissez-faire in my management style - but even if those are your baselines you often have to change from time to time.  Often with disciplining or handling a significant issue I would tend to become more authoritarian.  I am sure Tom delegates at time and maybe is delegate more to Zoll than I think he is doing- at the very least its much more collaborative than anything we have had before.     

What isn't mentioned is that Falvey was given the additional responsibilities of the business side in addition to the baseball in 2025.  This is what Tom P, wanted to split back into two roles again the same as it was prior to Dave St. Peter stepping down.  My understanding this is how most baseball teams operate.  Falvey wanted to continue to do both, I would not call that micro management, but a smart division of responsibilities.

I always assumed when Falvey was given those additional duties that it was an interim until a new owner came into place as the team was for sale at the time.  But I don't know what his understanding was, so if he left because of broken promises, we won't know that.  But the splitting of the two positions makes sense.

[TheLeviathan]

Odd thread here....

I'll go back to what @Danchatsaid early - Buxton's contract is an easy win for this franchise.  He's wildly outplayed what we have paid him.  I'm glad he got life changing money and a chance to live out his dream here.  At the same time, as I said when it was signed, his injury history sets up a lot of potential for tragedy and we saw that unfold the last few weeks.  He was a husk of the player he's been and it lead to one of the more depressing injuries I've seen happen.

I hope he's able to come back.

The lack of reading comprehension for @nicksaviking's rather basic point is stunning too.  Tom Pohlad pointed the north star of the organization in a direction - logic and odds be damned - and last night a guy who shouldn't have been playing got hurt at the expense of that floundering pipedream.  I'm sure Buxton, Shelton, and all the actual decision makers agree with him in this push.  Sometimes though, the adults in the room, need to be able to admit the truth of the situation and stop playing pretend.

I wish that had happened prior to Buck going down.

[old nurse]

3 hours ago, USAFChief said:

The idea Tom Pohlad is making IL decisions is next level idiocy. 

Well, we do agree on something. 

[old nurse]

3 hours ago, USAFChief said:

The idea Tom Pohlad is making IL decisions is next level idiocy. 

After glancing through the thread I would  guess people took your statement as a challenge.

[Craig Arko]

24 minutes ago, Hawkeye Bean Counter said:

Tom and Falvey made clear statements on how the relationship and expectations had changed and Tom's management style.  Those aren't assumptions those are facts.  How it relates to to the daily decision making.  I can't find the specific podcast but I believe it was the skor north podcast and maybe multiple podcasts.  There was a discussion right after Nance was traded for.  They discussed even if Tom was not actively involved with the specific decision to trade for Nance - although they speculated he was - Zoll knew exactly what Tom wanted by Tom's statements to the media stating why do they have to wait til the trade deadline to trade for players.       

Okay. I suppose I’m not that interested in drawing any specific conclusions about it. Things will play out as they will.

Anyway, please excuse the interruption. 

[weitz41]

I'm a little confused how Buxton reinjuring his hip turned into Tom Pohlad is making IL decisions.

What I got from all this is Buxton wanted to play in the field of dreams game (that's a once in a career game) and also wants to help with the playoff push. I'd guess there was more than one discussion about if he should. Between Buck, Med staff, Zoll and Tom Pohlad they decided to give it a shot. I highly doubt any one person made that decision. So, he came back at 🤷‍♂️ 80%. Unfortunately, that has not worked out. Now reinjured and likely out for most if not all of the remaining season. Get healthy Buck in the unlikelihood of a wildcard series.

Next man up.

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, weitz41 said:

I'm a little confused how Buxton reinjuring his hip turned into Tom Pohlad is making IL decisions.

What I got from all this is Buxton wanted to play in the field of dreams game (that's a once in a career game) and also wants to help with the playoff push. I'd guess there was more than one discussion about if he should. Between Buck, Med staff, Zoll and Tom Pohlad they decided to give it a shot. I highly doubt any one person made that decision. So, he came back at 🤷‍♂️ 80%. Unfortunately, that has not worked out. Now reinjured and likely out for most if not all of the remaining season. Get healthy Buck in the unlikelihood of a wildcard series.

Next man up.

It has never worked out, yet they do it year after year. Just like refusing to IL him right away, and playing with a shorter bench. Over and over. No matter who the manager and GM are. WTF?

[KirbyDome89]

2 hours ago, Woof Bronzer said:

It's wild that you don't think Tommy is a hands on owner.  He literally tells us that he is over and over again.  

Does the buck stop at the top or not?  Does Tommy have any accountability over the decisions made by the organization he runs or not?  

What exactly has he been hands on with? He's a better public speaker than Joe, and I think he's been given undue credit because he's more polished, but there was time to spend over the winter and he opted to keep the checkbook closed. The deadline was definition half measure stuff. I guess the Twins are running more promotions? 

Of course he's accountable as the CEO, that's not what's being argued. 

2 hours ago, Woof Bronzer said:

Jim Pohlad literally stepped in and negotiated the Correa salary dump.  This was barely one year ago!  The Pohlads meddle whenever they see fit.  Tommy has been telling us this since the minute he stepped in. 

Why oh why do Twins fans continue to give the Pohlads the benefit of the doubt?  This is a family that literally tried to get the team contracted out of existence 25 years ago!  I just do not get it.  

The Pohlad's have meddled when it comes to payroll, and historically nothing else. They've largely been seen as a "hands off," ownership group when it comes to personnel decisions. Can you name a single instance where any of them stepped in to mandate playing time decisions? That's the claim here...

2 hours ago, Woof Bronzer said:

The idea that the Twins organization was powerless to stop an injured player from playing, to the detriment of both the player and the team as a whole, is perhaps the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard!  That is next level dysfunction and the Pohlads should sell the team this afternoon.  

Obviously they're not powerless, but this certainly isn't the first time Buxton has played injured, and it's not like the Twins in general have a great track record regarding keeping injured players on the active roster. How many times have we watched this club play short handed for a week+ only for somebody to hit the IL retroactively? 

I mean, Alex Jackson is literally just burning an active roster spot right now lol. Yeah, that's dysfunction, and terrible roster management, but if this club is ok with making that decision MULTIPLE times during an alleged playoff push, Idk why Buxton trying to play through injury is suddenly coming from the top.  

1 hour ago, Woof Bronzer said:

The idea that rich and powerful people have zero accountability for their anything they ever do is pounded into us day after day.  Judging by this thread it sure seems to be working.  Who knew "Leaders are responsible for the organizations they run" would someday be a subversive political opinion worthy of ridicule, but that's 2026 America for ya.  

Tbh, I think you and a few others are conflating a lack of belief that Tom Pohlad is pulling day to day roster strings with some sort of weirdo Billionaire boot licking. Multiple things can be true at once. The Pohlads can be a terrible ownership group, and an overall plague on society, while the Twins FO can be prone to making awful roster decisions. 

Occam's Razor here; is Tom Pohlad dog whistling to Zoll through media comments, and the game of telephone trickles down to Shelton when he's filling out a lineup card, or does the manager see his best player (who is admittedly struggling) give him the thumbs up as far as availability? I'm more prone to believe it's the latter. 

[KirbyDome89]

57 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Odd thread here....

I'll go back to what @Danchatsaid early - Buxton's contract is an easy win for this franchise.  He's wildly outplayed what we have paid him.  I'm glad he got life changing money and a chance to live out his dream here.  At the same time, as I said when it was signed, his injury history sets up a lot of potential for tragedy and we saw that unfold the last few weeks.  He was a husk of the player he's been and it lead to one of the more depressing injuries I've seen happen.

I hope he's able to come back.

The lack of reading comprehension for @nicksaviking's rather basic point is stunning too.  Tom Pohlad pointed the north star of the organization in a direction - logic and odds be damned - and last night a guy who shouldn't have been playing got hurt at the expense of that floundering pipedream.  I'm sure Buxton, Shelton, and all the actual decision makers agree with him in this push.  Sometimes though, the adults in the room, need to be able to admit the truth of the situation and stop playing pretend.

I wish that had happened prior to Buck going down.

If Tom Pohlad had said nothing, do you think Buxton is on the IL with this team trying to cling to a WC spot? I don't. 

Concur that the adults in the room need to act as such, but how the Twins handle these situations predates Tom Pohlad opening his mouth.