Reds 7, Twins 4: Bullpen Struggles, Defense Fails as Twins Lose Fourth Straight

[SF Twins Fan]

Does anyone know if Wallners any options remaining? He needs a reset.

[Danchat]

The defense continues to be brutal, but I don't know what's to be done about it other than getting new players. The Falvine regime failed to draft and develop any hitters that can field and we are reaping the results. How did Lee pass the smell test at AAA with how little range he has?

The bullpen is unviable with the pieces they have, expecting Morris and Acton to close out a close game is not fair to them. It's a shame given how good the starters have been.

It's frustrating with how unexpectedly well some of these hitters have been. Martin has been awesome, Larnach has been an OBP machine despite being a part-time player, and Bell has been worth every penny of his contract and then some.

[Danchat]

25 minutes ago, SF Twins Fan said:

Does anyone know if Wallners any options remaining? He needs a reset.

He has 1 option, but I wouldn't be shocked if he is IL'd and his rehab stint is his reset.

[JD-TWINS]

26 minutes ago, SF Twins Fan said:

Does anyone know if Wallners any options remaining? He needs a reset.

He has options - I’m thinking I.L. after today and then at least a couple - ten week re-set.

🤞🤞🤞

[JD-TWINS]

10 minutes ago, Danchat said:

The defense continues to be brutal, but I don't know what's to be done about it other than getting new players. The Falvine regime failed to draft and develop any hitters that can field and we are reaping the results. How did Lee pass the smell test at AAA with how little range he has?

The bullpen is unviable with the pieces they have, expecting Morris and Acton to close out a close game is not fair to them. It's a shame given how good the starters have been.

It's frustrating with how unexpectedly well some of these hitters have been. Martin has been awesome, Larnach has been an OBP machine despite being a part-time player, and Bell has been worth every penny of his contract and then some.

Lee passed the back-up SS test and the “he’s OK at 3rd or 2B if needed test”. We had CORREA! They drafted Culpepper & Houston in first round the last 2 years - so do not think Lee was the long-term answer.

Lee has options - Keaschall has options - Wallner has option…………Keaschall may need to go to LF with Martin & Larnach platoon in RF ……….. maybe Keaschall and Lee alternate at 2B? Something needs to happen to improve defense in the middle of the infield.

Since Lee has an OPS+ approaching 100………. he should maybe go to 2B and let Gray & Kriedler platoon at SS …….. all once Lewis is back.

[terrydactyls]

two cents worth.....

Right now, I would rather see Houston at SS and Culpepper at 2B, Keashall at1B,  ERod in RF, and leave Martin in LF.  The Twins might lose a lot of games but at least the defense wouldn't be the deciding factor.  And it would make for exciting baseball.

[mark sills]

so if cp is coming up who leaves, or possible trade

[Jacksson]

Two members of the Twins bullpen who saw their trip to St Paul or DFA in jeopardy after the performances of Funderburk, Orze and Sands on Saturday stepped up bigtime and were able to take charge of their own destinies towards professional baseball oblivion by each serving up 3 runs when it really mattered.  First, with a 4-1 lead, Morris gave up 3 runs to tie the game and was followed up by Acton who gave up 3 runs of his own to put the game away for Cincinnati and stick a fork in whatever hope and excitement existed  among the hometown crowd.  The bus transfers to St Paul for both are on Shelton's desk

In related news it was announced  that the entire team will spend the off day Monday occupied with workouts in the following areas:

Fielding Practice = Infield and Outfield

Throwing Practice = Infield  and Outfield

Base Running

Base Stealing

Bunting

Situational hitting with runners on base and/or in scoring position

NOT Striking Out

Reviewing the Rules of the game

Pitchers Not hitting batters

Pitchers NOT walking batters

Pitchers fielding their position

Pitchers throwing fielded balls accurately to the appropriate base.

UNFORTUNATELY, There are ONLY 24 Hours in a day, so it remains to be seen IF any degree of improvement can realistically be expected

[Greglw3]

5 hours ago, USAFChief said:

The pen was "beat up??"

The Twins pen going into today was in about as good shape as can ever be expected past opening weekend in today’s MLB. 

There is no such thing as a low leverage reliever.

 

The truth is they don’t have anyone even close to a legitimate closer or even a reliable setup man. Jeremy Zoll needs to get on the phone.

3 hours ago, SF Twins Fan said:

Does anyone know if Wallners any options remaining? He needs a reset.

He does have an option left and they should call up Roden or Emmanuel Rodriguez and possibly trade for a right HB to platoon in RF or call up Fedko or Gonzalez only to hit vs lefties. Wallner is even worse than last year, very close to inept.

[Bangkok Twins Fan]

I didn't watch the game, but from seeing the box score, that was an impressive game for Ober. He hung in there, limiting the runs and hits and striking out 10 batters. Was that a mirage, or is he finding his groove again?

[DJL44]

32 minutes ago, Bangkok Twins Fan said:

I didn't watch the game, but from seeing the box score, that was an impressive game for Ober. He hung in there, limiting the runs and hits and striking out 10 batters. Was that a mirage, or is he finding his groove again?

Mostly a mirage helped by a generous home plate umpire.

I wish the relievers had been able to take advantage of the large strike zone. One of the problems for both Morris and Acton is they were not using the corners.

[Linus]

Brooks Lee trying to steal home on the back end. I mean sheesh…..

[karcherd]

9 hours ago, JD-TWINS said:

Lee passed the back-up SS test and the “he’s OK at 3rd or 2B if needed test”. We had CORREA! They drafted Culpepper & Houston in first round the last 2 years - so do not think Lee was the long-term answer.

Lee has options - Keaschall has options - Wallner has option…………Keaschall may need to go to LF with Martin & Larnach platoon in RF ……….. maybe Keaschall and Lee alternate at 2B? Something needs to happen to improve defense in the middle of the infield.

Since Lee has an OPS+ approaching 100………. he should maybe go to 2B and let Gray & Kriedler platoon at SS …….. all once Lewis is back.

Any solution with Gray and Kriedler getting regular playing time is not a solution.

[Bodie]

14 hours ago, Peter said:

Crushing devastating sweep-reds had horseshoe up their ass and no business winning all 3!!! 🤬😤😡💩😢need to flush this down toilet and have 4-2 week to stay over.500 and reclaim division!!!

That "horseshoe" is named Terry Fracona. Dude gets his team's best, and does it pretty regularly. One of those "it" guys...

[David Maro]

Little League SS and didn't score 6!!

[JD-TWINS]

27 minutes ago, karcherd said:

Any solution with Gray and Kriedler getting regular playing time is not a solution.

It’s short term for sure - need Houston’s glove there but not sure they (or any team would push that hard w/him) ………….do we not think these two are better defenders at SS? At least Kriedler?

I see Prielipp & Rojas are being brought up for a look ………. maybe the youth will start to flow more aggressively and Culpepper is at SS by Cinco de Mayo?

[bean5302]

12 hours ago, jaimedude said:

Not the way he was pitching. He barely got out of the 8th. Two hard hit balls to the gap in the 9th. After 1 out a 4 pitch walk. Morris to me is more suited to start then come  out of the bullpen in a high leverage spot. I like Morris, but I don't think he is suited for a bullpen role. Honestly I would like Simeon Woods-Richardson and Morris to swap spots. I think Sim more suited to pitch out if the pen and Morris more suited to start and go long. SIM has breaking pitches that would work out of the pen. Like you said Morris is more of a starter. 

So the argument isn't that Morris was cooked because he threw too many pitches, it's that Morris was cooked because his stuff doesn't work in small sample sizes?

Furthermore, because he doesn't have any good breaking/offspeed stuff, he would do better in a longer outing starting games in the rotation where he'd be dramatically more exposed?

I'm not following that logic at all.

[stringer bell]

Expecting Gray to be anything more than a replacement player long-term is pretty much like expecting Kody Clemens to be a big league regular. Gray has looked okay at the plate and done a lot of damage with runners in scoring position, but that is an incredibly small sample size and there's not much to suggest he will sustain the good hitting he has done. The reason I didn't think Gray was a real candidate for the utility role was his defense. He made a key error yesterday and he looks to lack range and arm for both third base and shortstop.

Kreidler has the bona fides as a defender, but he's never hit. If we purely want defense, Kreidler should be playing somewhere, but he's probably no better than Outman as a hitter. 

[Trov]

 

11 hours ago, SF Twins Fan said:

Does anyone know if Wallners any options remaining? He needs a reset.

He does have 1 year left of options.  He is dealing with sore ribs thanks to a 95 MPH fastball to them. That cannot be easy to hit when your core muscle is bruised. 

[Trov]

The pen and defense was the downfall, we will hear this a lot this year.  We knew going into the season our defense was going to be bad.  We have subpar defenders at just about every position.  Buck is still good in CF but losing a step and not elite defender anymore.  Outside of him the OF are all below average.  SS well below average defense there.  3B maybe average at best.  2B below average. 1B Clemons grades out above average, but rest are well below average.  Cather we are fine there, but across the board we have terrible range, terrible jumps, outside of a few, terrible arms. Most guys are on team, in their spots because of offense.  We will need the offense to carry. 

The pen is filled with below average guys, and the couple of above average guys cannot pitch every day. We will need some to step up or convert some of our AAA starters to pen guys this year if we want to really compete. 

[stringer bell]

11 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

So the argument isn't that Morris was cooked because he threw too many pitches, it's that Morris was cooked because his stuff doesn't work in small sample sizes?

Furthermore, because he doesn't have any good breaking/offspeed stuff, he would do better in a longer outing starting games in the rotation where he'd be dramatically more exposed?

I'm not following that logic at all.

It was my understanding that the Twins have been grooming Morris for multiple innings out of the bullpen. I wouldn't think the multiple innings would often be the eighth and ninth. He's got okay velocity, but his fastball hasn't been his out pitch in the minors. I was stunned when Shelton sent him out for the ninth. I know that Sands and Funderburk had pitched two day in a row, but there were other guys who could throw the ninth (Orze, Acton and Banda). I'm currently speculating that Banda is either going on the IL or getting a DFA, but Orze and Acton were rested (Acton had warmed up earlier) and the following day (today) is a day off. 

I have consistently said that I thought moving SWR to the bullpen would be a waste since he doesn't have overpowering stuff and his strength is mixing three or four decent pitches. However, his struggles the second and third time through a lineup might indicate that he would be better in shorter outings as a reliever. Still not totally convinced of that.

[karcherd]

17 minutes ago, JD-TWINS said:

It’s short term for sure - need Houston’s glove there but not sure they (or any team would push that hard w/him) ………….do we not think these two are better defenders at SS? At least Kriedler?

I see Prielipp & Rojas are being brought up for a look ………. maybe the youth will start to flow more aggressively and Culpepper is at SS by Cinco de Mayo?

I think short term needs to be put on the back shelf.  This year should be about seeing what you have and then knowing what holes need to be filled for next year.  Giving AB's and or regular playing time to these journeyman AAAA players is just setting them back long term.  And it is not really adding a significant number of wins this year.  Make Lee the utility guy and install Culpepper at short.

[stringer bell]

Not really a place for this, so I'll put it in the game recap thread--today marks Taylor Rogers official ten years of service time. The players all seem to pay an inordinate amount of attention to this, so it must be a really big deal. Buxton reached the threshold earlier this month and Josh Bell will go over ten years late in this season, although who knows if it will be with the Twins.

[LewFordLives]

13 hours ago, jaimedude said:

Not the way he was pitching. He barely got out of the 8th. Two hard hit balls to the gap in the 9th. After 1 out a 4 pitch walk. 

100 percent agree. He was unable to locate his breaking pitches and the Reds were just sitting on his fastball, which he inevitably had to throw because he was always behind in the count.

[stringer bell]

9 hours ago, Jacksson said:

Two members of the Twins bullpen who saw their trip to St Paul or DFA in jeopardy after the performances of Funderburk, Orze and Sands on Saturday stepped up bigtime and were able to take charge of their own destinies towards professional baseball oblivion by each serving up 3 runs when it really mattered.  First, with a 4-1 lead, Morris gave up 3 runs to tie the game and was followed up by Acton who gave up 3 runs of his own to put the game away for Cincinnati and stick a fork in whatever hope and excitement existed  among the hometown crowd.  The bus transfers to St Paul for both are on Shelton's desk.

Both guys have barely been big leaguers and I think it's a lot to ask to throw them into a tight game in the late innings. Further, Acton allowed one (1) hit and all runs against him were unearned. The tenth inning is on the defense ten times more than the pitcher IMHO.

[thelanges5]

47 minutes ago, Trov said:

 

He does have 1 year left of options.  He is dealing with sore ribs thanks to a 95 MPH fastball to them. That cannot be easy to hit when your core muscle is bruised. 

He should take Royce‘s spot on the 10 day IL. 

[bean5302]

55 minutes ago, stringer bell said:

It was my understanding that the Twins have been grooming Morris for multiple innings out of the bullpen. I wouldn't think the multiple innings would often be the eighth and ninth. He's got okay velocity, but his fastball hasn't been his out pitch in the minors. I was stunned when Shelton sent him out for the ninth. I know that Sands and Funderburk had pitched two day in a row, but there were other guys who could throw the ninth (Orze, Acton and Banda). I'm currently speculating that Banda is either going on the IL or getting a DFA, but Orze and Acton were rested (Acton had warmed up earlier) and the following day (today) is a day off. 

I have consistently said that I thought moving SWR to the bullpen would be a waste since he doesn't have overpowering stuff and his strength is mixing three or four decent pitches. However, his struggles the second and third time through a lineup might indicate that he would be better in shorter outings as a reliever. Still not totally convinced of that.

I'm not debating whether Morris belongs in the rotation or the bullpen. I challenged the assertion Morris was "cooked" because he threw 28 pitches already. Then, when the OP's position changed to Morris would be better as a rotation guy because his stuff doesn't move, I challenged that logic.

I have never believed Morris was being groomed for a middle reliever mop up guy since I don't think teams ever invest effort into grooming that worthless roster position. I think he's been viewed as short term injury replacement depth or possibly a #5 rotation arm, but it's entirely possible he could be the 26th man on a roster as a middle innings mop up guy.

[garn from vancouver]

more and more it appears lee is not the shortstop of the future - he is just the shortstop of right now. and heavens to betsy, why is outman still around? i think my wife thought i was going to shoot the tv once they started booting the ball around in the 10th. 

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, stringer bell said:

It was my understanding that the Twins have been grooming Morris for multiple innings out of the bullpen. I wouldn't think the multiple innings would often be the eighth and ninth. He's got okay velocity, but his fastball hasn't been his out pitch in the minors. I was stunned when Shelton sent him out for the ninth. I know that Sands and Funderburk had pitched two day in a row, but there were other guys who could throw the ninth (Orze, Acton and Banda). I'm currently speculating that Banda is either going on the IL or getting a DFA, but Orze and Acton were rested (Acton had warmed up earlier) and the following day (today) is a day off. 

I have consistently said that I thought moving SWR to the bullpen would be a waste since he doesn't have overpowering stuff and his strength is mixing three or four decent pitches. However, his struggles the second and third time through a lineup might indicate that he would be better in shorter outings as a reliever. Still not totally convinced of that.

Morris shouldn’t have gone out for the 9th but it isn’t about stuff or whether he’s a single or multiple inning guy. That inning was stressful and he worked really hard but was successful. The adrenaline had to be high. Then he went into the dugout and the adrenaline had to crash. What could have been a win to build on turned into a loss that he needs to overcome. 

[DJL44]

I should give Caratini some credit for yesterday. He pairs well with Ober.