Cody Schoenmann Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 13 Posted April 13 Amidst the rollercoaster of developments those who follow the Minnesota Twins have been forced to endure since the end of the 2023 ALDS Game 4 loss to the Houston Astros, one narrative has remained constant: Minnesota has too many left-handed hitting corner outfielders. From former president of baseball operations Derek Falvey refusing to part ways with Max Kepler when Matt Wallner, Alex Kirilloff, and Trevor Larnach were perceived to be on the cusp of becoming full-time major league contributors to now chief baseball executive Jeremy Zoll opting to roster Larnach (who many view the same as Kepler years ago) and James Outman over an inexperienced, higher-upside bat in Alan Roden or top prospects Emmanuel Rodriguez and Walker Jenkins. Frustration continues to mount around the organization’s positional redundancy, with Twins decision-makers opting to roster Outman over Roden (and to a lesser note, Rodriguez and Jenkins), despite the 28-year-old possessing the third-lowest wRC+ (384 of 386) among hitters with at least 10 plate appearances in baseball this season. Much of that angst is overblown: Outman is occupying the same role DaShawn Keirsey Jr. did early last season, in that he is with the club to enter as a late-game defensive substitution, pinch run, and give Byron Buxton a break from center field once a week. Still, disdain remains. Does Minnesota roster too many left-handed hitting corner outfielders in the majors and Triple-A, or has that narrative become overstated? Let’s take a look. To preface, I want to provide context for the numbers illustrated below. Using FanGraphs’s RosterResource, I sifted through all 30 organizations’ MLB and Triple A depth charts, tallying left-handed hitting position players who have played left and/or right field in the majors and Triple A this season. That player had to net at least one appearance at either corner outfield spot (for example, Kody Clemens counts as one of the Twins' left-handed hitting corner outfielders, despite netting only three innings played in left field this season). Players who exclusively play center field don’t count (for example, Justin Crawford hits left-handed; however, he has only played center field for the Philadelphia Phillies this season, making him ineligible). That being understood, let’s actually take a look: Rank Team LHH cOFs 1 New York Mets 9 2 Chicago White Sox 8 2 Cleveland Guardians 8 2 Tampa Bay Rays 8 5 Baltimore Orioles 7 5 Boston Red Sox 7 5 Houston Astros 7 5 Kansas City Royals 7 5 Minnesota Twins 7 5 Texas Rangers 7 5 Toronto Blue Jays 7 5 St. Louis Cardinals 7 13 Detroit Tigers 6 13 New York Yankees 6 13 Seattle Mariners 6 13 Colorado Rockies 6 13 Milwaukee Brewers 6 18 West Sacramento Athletics 5 18 Los Angeles Angels 5 18 Los Angeles Dodgers 5 18 Miami Marlins 5 18 San Diego Padres 5 18 San Francisco Giants 5 18 Washington Nationals 5 25 Arizona Diamondbacks 4 25 Atlanta Braves 4 27 Chicago Cubs 3 27 Cincinnati Reds 3 27 Pittsburgh Pirates 3 30 Philadelphia Phillies 2 Immediately, one will notice that the Twins are tied for fifth-place with the Orioles, Red Sox, Astros, Royals, Rangers, Blue Jays, and Cardinals, rostering seven left-handed hitting corner outfielders between the parent club and Triple A; The Rays, Guardians, and White Sox ranked above them, tying for second-place with eight; And the Mets took the honor, leading the league with nine rostered between the majors and Triple A. On the flip side, the Cubs, Reds, and Pirates tied for second-fewest in the majors and Triple A with three. The Phillies took the honor of rostering the least, with Brandon Marsh and Gabriel Rincones Jr. being the only two left-handed-hitting corner outfielders across the two levels (this is what happens when Max Kepler takes too much epitrenbolene). Given how much attention this narrative has received within Twins Territory, it is unsurprising to see that the Twins are toward the top of the league in left-handed hitting corner outfielders rostered between the majors and Triple A. As mentioned earlier, though, they keep good company, tied with seven other organizations for fifth place and one left-handed hitting corner outfield subtraction away from tying for 13th with the Tigers, Yankees, Mariners, Rockies, and Brewers. With some of the best and worst organizations residing at both ends of the spectrum, it becomes clear there is no correlation between the number of left-handed hitting corner outfielders an organization rosters in the majors and Triple A and success on the field. Instead, and this will shock you, dear reader, it’s the quality of left-handed-hitting corner outfielders an organization has and how they deploy them. No Mets fans are upset with Brett Baty and Carson Benge receiving the majority of opportunities in both corner outfield positions with Juan Soto injured. Yet, they would be if president of baseball operations David Stearns had prioritized handing MJ Melendez, Mike Tauchman, or Ji Hwan Bae opportunities over them. Falvey prioritizing Kepler over Wallner, Larnach, and Kirilloff seasons ago, and now Zoll handing Outman a corner outfield spot over Roden because the former no longer has minor league options, is why such disdain has grown around the club’s handling of that position player archetype. And while that angst is justified, one thing needs to be understood: The Twins' decision-making process regarding left-handed-hitting corner outfielders has been sound. Outman has been utilized so sparingly that him not yet generating a hit over 15 plate appearances while striking out at a 53.3% rate has been inconsequential. Roden is more deserving of a 26-man roster spot than Outman. Given the minimized role he would have with the major league club, however, it makes more sense for the optionless Outman to occupy this very minimal role than Roden, particularly this early in the season. Again, Minnesota has a high number of left-handed hitting corner outfielders between the majors and Triple A in relation to the rest of the league. Still, it is not an excessive amount whatsoever, with the club’s current left-handed hitting corner outfield tandem (Wallner and Larnach) being primary contributors to the lineup’s early-season success at the plate. View full article
twinsfansd Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 Not so much how many left handers they have, but moreso the lack of right handed alternatives. Twins_Fan_For_Life and Melissa 2
MN Brian Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 I applaud the attempt to quantify this, but do you feel that a filter that captures 3 innings of work by Kody Clemens is the best filter to use here? Or was it selected to help define a narrative?
Whammy Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 Somewhere in the article, I would suggest listing the 7 lefties the Twins/Saints have used. Cody Schoenmann 1
Cody Schoenmann Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 14 Author Posted April 14 1 minute ago, amjgt said: Somewhere in the article, I would suggest listing the 7 lefties the Twins/Saints have used. Twins: Wallner, Larnach, Outman, Clemens Saints: Roden, Rodriguez, Jenkins Whammy and Western SD Fan 2
Whammy Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 3 minutes ago, MN Brian said: I applaud the attempt to quantify this, but do you feel that a filter that captures 3 innings of work by Kody Clemens is the best filter to use here? Or was it selected to help define a narrative? What filter/threshold would you suggest that would be narrative free? 1 inning? 1 start? Include injured guys who WILL see time? 20 innings? Include CF who played in the corners some last year?
Cody Schoenmann Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 14 Author Posted April 14 5 minutes ago, MN Brian said: I applaud the attempt to quantify this, but do you feel that a filter that captures 3 innings of work by Kody Clemens is the best filter to use here? Or was it selected to help define a narrative? I included every left-handed hitting position player who is listed as a LF or RF on FanGraphs or has appeared at either corner outfield position this season. I'm not trying to push a narrative by including Clemens. My main point with the Twins is that Outman is really the only redundancy; still, him being redundant has yet to negatively affect the team in any real manner, making the redundancy largely inconsequential. Western SD Fan, arby58, Craig Arko and 2 others 5
Dman Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 Point well taken, but I think the angst is more about the fact that pretty much every lefty you mentioned doesn't hit left handed pitching that well and right handers generally do a better job of that. Not sure that's the case for the other teams players. You could argue that since lefties generally will see more right handed pitching it makes sense to carry more of them I guess, but we see that most teams do value roster balance in their lineups so I don't think people clamoring for that are off base. While I appreciate you adding Clemens to the list as someone who has played outfield I don't see him as a legit outfielder. It should be noted that Mendez is still playing in the outfield and he is on the 40 man so he should count as well IMO. Personally I think the Twins have too many outfielders on their 40 man, but that's just me. DJL44 and arby58 2
Western SD Fan Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 Great job on the article and great research @Cody Schoenmann. My main concern with Larnach was that he appeared to be a redundancy of Wallner and having them both out there would negatively impact the lineup. In previous years, both in the same lineup would be similar to being trapped in a Bermuda Triangle where AB's go to die. Additionally, in previous years, there was little base stealing or even going from first to third on a single, neither could seem to hit with RISP, or hit enough HR's to make up the difference. The way a potential lineup was constructed also gave the idea that there was not going to be enough AB's for all of the LH bats. Credit the schedule that led us down a path that we haven't had to cross that path yet. Shelton has definitely brought in a new philosophy and the players have responded. As of now, this does not look as bad as it did before the season started and some of us (me included) may have overreacted. The Outman situation is untenable, but we have had players like him before such as Keirsey Jr and Billy Hamilton, although I agree that Roden needs to replace Outman as soon as possible. LA Vikes Fan and Cody Schoenmann 2
Cody Schoenmann Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 14 Author Posted April 14 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dman said: Point well taken, but I think the angst is more about the fact that pretty much every lefty you mentioned doesn't hit left handed pitching that well and right handers generally do a better job of that. Not sure that's the case for the other teams players. You could argue that since lefties generally will see more right handed pitching it makes sense to carry more of them I guess, but we see that most teams do value roster balance in their lineups so I don't think people clamoring for that are off base. While I appreciate you adding Clemens to the list as someone who has played outfield I don't see him as a legit outfielder. It should be noted that Mendez is still playing in the outfield and he is on the 40 man so he should count as well IMO. Personally I think the Twins have too many outfielders on their 40 man, but that's just me. There's really only like 10 LHH cOFs who hit LHP well and most of those players are stars like Cody Bellinger, Corbin Carroll, Kyle Tucker, and James Wood. Wallner actually fares well against LHP. He has a 102 wRC+ over 130 plate appearances against them since last year. Still, though, LHH cOFS who hit LHP well are few and far between. The Twins are lucky to have one in Wallner. Edited April 14 by Cody Schoenmann Dman and Richie the Rally Goat 2
Greggory Masterson Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 14 Posted April 14 We don't want to admit it, but the league has never had fewer good righty outfielders as we have right now. Per an article by Mike Petriello, there were only 16 starting right-handed outfielders with an an OPS+ of 100 or better: Ronald Acuña Jr., Jo Adell, Randy Arozarena, Harrison Bader, Byron Buxton, Jackson Chourio, Austin Hays, Teoscar Hernández, Aaron Judge, Wyatt Langford, Ramón Laureano, Andy Pages, Heliot Ramos, Julio Rodríguez, Fernando Tatis Jr., Taylor Ward. Right-handed outfielders as a whole had a 100 OPS+. Everyone's outfielders are left-handed, especially in the corners, because a lot of those righties listed are center fielders. Craig Arko, bean5302, Dman and 4 others 7
Cody Schoenmann Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 14 Author Posted April 14 6 minutes ago, Greggory Masterson said: We don't want to admit it, but the league has never had fewer good righty outfielders as we have right now. Per an article by Mike Petriello, there were only 16 starting right-handed outfielders with an an OPS+ of 100 or better: Ronald Acuña Jr., Jo Adell, Randy Arozarena, Harrison Bader, Byron Buxton, Jackson Chourio, Austin Hays, Teoscar Hernández, Aaron Judge, Wyatt Langford, Ramón Laureano, Andy Pages, Heliot Ramos, Julio Rodríguez, Fernando Tatis Jr., Taylor Ward. Right-handed outfielders as a whole had a 100 OPS+. Everyone's outfielders are left-handed, especially in the corners, because a lot of those righties listed are center fielders. when did you become a silver caretaker?
Greggory Masterson Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 14 Posted April 14 6 minutes ago, Cody Schoenmann said: when did you become a silver caretaker? Has Bonnes been taking part of my paycheck and putting it back into the site? Richie the Rally Goat and C-Gangster 2
DJL44 Old-Timey Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 “Outman has been utilized so sparingly that his not yet generating a hit over 15 plate appearances while striking out at a 53.3% rate has been inconsequential. Roden is more deserving of a 26-man roster spot than Outman. Given the minimized role he would have with the major-league club, however, it makes more sense for the optionless Outman to occupy this very minimal role than Roden, particularly this early in the season.“ Why is “guy so bad he doesn’t deserve playing time” a role with a 13 player roster? Richie the Rally Goat, Dman, LambchoP and 1 other 4
Cody Schoenmann Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 14 Author Posted April 14 5 minutes ago, DJL44 said: “Outman has been utilized so sparingly that his not yet generating a hit over 15 plate appearances while striking out at a 53.3% rate has been inconsequential. Roden is more deserving of a 26-man roster spot than Outman. Given the minimized role he would have with the major-league club, however, it makes more sense for the optionless Outman to occupy this very minimal role than Roden, particularly this early in the season.“ Why is “guy so bad he doesn’t deserve playing time” a role with a 13 player roster? The only alternative is Roden and he probably deserves to start more than twice a week.
Jim H Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 I am not sure replacing Outman with Roden solves anything, directly. Using Larnach or Wallner as mostly fulltime DH, and using Roden as a fulltime corner outfielder would perhaps be a better look than current useage. Also trading either Larnach or Wallner would also open a slot for Roden. Replacing Outman with Roden without making other adjustments isn't the only choice here. LA Vikes Fan 1
bean5302 Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 32 minutes ago, Greggory Masterson said: We don't want to admit it, but the league has never had fewer good righty outfielders as we have right now. Per an article by Mike Petriello, there were only 16 starting right-handed outfielders with an an OPS+ of 100 or better: Ronald Acuña Jr., Jo Adell, Randy Arozarena, Harrison Bader, Byron Buxton, Jackson Chourio, Austin Hays, Teoscar Hernández, Aaron Judge, Wyatt Langford, Ramón Laureano, Andy Pages, Heliot Ramos, Julio Rodríguez, Fernando Tatis Jr., Taylor Ward. Right-handed outfielders as a whole had a 100 OPS+. Everyone's outfielders are left-handed, especially in the corners, because a lot of those righties listed are center fielders. The percentage of valuable right handed batters vs left handed batters remains at a striking 50/50 split. Even going back 20 years to 2005, if a player had 2.0+ fWAR, they were 50/50 RHH vs. LHH despite only 10% of the US population being lefty.
MN Brian Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 1 hour ago, amjgt said: What filter/threshold would you suggest that would be narrative free? 1 inning? 1 start? Include injured guys who WILL see time? 20 innings? Include CF who played in the corners some last year? For sure there are challenges with any selected filter. It likely goes back to the original hypothesis from my perspective, which is that the Twins have more left-handed hitting corner outfielders than other organizations. So what defines a player as a corner outfielder? It doesn't feel right to say anyone who plays there. I think that a player who plays the majority of their time in the corner outfield position might be a better criteria but certainly there are other options. You raise a great point in regards to injured players that I had not considered. To be clear, I'm not saying that Cody did choose that filter to define a narrative. No way for me to know that answer. And the answer may be similar no matter what the selection criteria may be, I haven't invested the effort that Cody did to know. But my comment is reflective of my spidey sense tingling while reading his article =) (edited to reflect the response is to amjgt not Cody)
MN Brian Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 1 hour ago, Cody Schoenmann said: I included every left-handed hitting position player who is listed as a LF or RF on FanGraphs or has appeared at either corner outfield position this season. I'm not trying to push a narrative by including Clemens. My main point with the Twins is that Outman is really the only redundancy; still, him being redundant has yet to negatively affect the team in any real manner, making the redundancy largely inconsequential. Fair enough. My comment wasn't really that Clemens was included, but that if that type of player was included in the count for the Twins that it could easily be skewing the numbers being reported for other teams even more.
Nshore Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 I don't have a problem with left handed outfielders. I'm left handed myself. I PREFER left handed outfielders. But can they play the game of baseball. Ty Cobb, Stan Musial, and Ted Williams were left handed outfielders. Just find players of their caliber. Ok Cobb was CF - but still. Mike Sixel 1
Cody Schoenmann Twins Daily Contributor Posted April 14 Author Posted April 14 (edited) 33 minutes ago, MN Brian said: Fair enough. My comment wasn't really that Clemens was included, but that if that type of player was included in the count for the Twins that it could easily be skewing the numbers being reported for other teams even more. Nothing has been intentionally skewed. It’s possible that I missed a LHH position player who LF or RF on a team or two. I looked over each team three times to confirm, though. Again, human error is possible on my end, but if there are any mistakes it’s within a 1-2 player margin and accidental. Edited April 14 by Cody Schoenmann
Wedman13 Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 3 hours ago, Cody Schoenmann said: Twins: Wallner, Larnach, Outman, Clemens Saints: Roden, Rodriguez, Jenkins It just won't stop. "Wallner being a primary contributor to the teams early success at the plate". What? Really well thought out article but again do we always need to prop up Matt to pull it off.....because he's from (but left) here? Even he knows it's not working. I hope for every kids' success but it shouldn't be gifted. LA Vikes Fan 1
Wedman13 Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 3 hours ago, Cody Schoenmann said: I included every left-handed hitting position player who is listed as a LF or RF on FanGraphs or has appeared at either corner outfield position this season. I'm not trying to push a narrative by including Clemens. My main point with the Twins is that Outman is really the only redundancy; still, him being redundant has yet to negatively affect the team in any real manner, making the redundancy largely inconsequential. So the main point of the post inconsequential? Ok, got it??
JADBP Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 3 hours ago, Western SD Fan said: Great job on the article and great research @Cody Schoenmann. My main concern with Larnach was that he appeared to be a redundancy of Wallner and having them both out there would negatively impact the lineup. In previous years, both in the same lineup would be similar to being trapped in a Bermuda Triangle where AB's go to die. Additionally, in previous years, there was little base stealing or even going from first to third on a single, neither could seem to hit with RISP, or hit enough HR's to make up the difference. The way a potential lineup was constructed also gave the idea that there was not going to be enough AB's for all of the LH bats. Credit the schedule that led us down a path that we haven't had to cross that path yet. Shelton has definitely brought in a new philosophy and the players have responded. As of now, this does not look as bad as it did before the season started and some of us (me included) may have overreacted. The Outman situation is untenable, but we have had players like him before such as Keirsey Jr and Billy Hamilton, although I agree that Roden needs to replace Outman as soon as possible. UNTENABLE....Just the perfect word there! There are so many players that can hit better than 0.000! Even worse than untenable, he has hit exactly 0.000 with 10 runners in scoring position. The sad part of letting Outman flail at the plate is that you are damaging his psyche and degrading his skills. He needs a reset. He needs to escape the pressure of MLB. Based on his history, I don't think he is suddenly going to get 5 hits in the next 10 AB. Zoll needs to understand that he has to let go of the bad trade. Its done and you can't fix it. Move on. And, don't worry that he is out of options, NO ONE is going to claim an untenable hitter batting 0.000.
Doctor Gast Verified Member Posted April 14 Posted April 14 I really don't care how many LH cOFers other teams have. How many of them do the Twins really need? If we have 2 LH cOFers & a LH utility player or switch-hitters with a couple in AAA, IMO, we are doing pretty well & have plenty of depth. Where we can trade the surplus to fill where we are weak.
DJL44 Old-Timey Member Posted April 15 Posted April 15 5 hours ago, Nshore said: I don't have a problem with left handed outfielders. I'm left handed myself. I PREFER left handed outfielders. But can they play the game of baseball. Ty Cobb, Stan Musial, and Ted Williams were left handed outfielders. Just find players of their caliber. Ok Cobb was CF - but still. I don’t think the Twins have ever had a player of that caliber in their 60 year history. I’m sure they would be better if they added an inner circle Hall of Famer but it’s not super helpful advice.
dxpavelka Verified Member Posted April 15 Posted April 15 10 hours ago, twinsfansd said: Not so much how many left handers they have, but moreso the lack of right handed alternatives. seems like the two go hand in hand
ashbury Verified Member Posted April 15 Posted April 15 11 hours ago, twinsfansd said: Not so much how many left handers they have, but moreso the lack of right handed alternatives. 51 minutes ago, dxpavelka said: seems like the two go hand in hand To paraphrase a very old baseball adage, "I don't want left-handed batters. I want batters that can hit right-handed pitching."
Mike Sixel Old-Timey Member Posted April 15 Posted April 15 9 hours ago, Cody Schoenmann said: The only alternative is Roden and he probably deserves to start more than twice a week. Why? He's 26. I'm sure he'd rather make MLB money..... If he's up and great, he'll play. The Great Hambino 1
old nurse Verified Member Posted April 15 Posted April 15 15 hours ago, Cody Schoenmann said: Twins: Wallner, Larnach, Outman, Clemens Saints: Roden, Rodriguez, Jenkins A lot of disingenuous to call the utility player as a corner outfielder
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