Tigers 4, Twins 0: Outplayed Every Which Way

[hitterscount]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

To be fair, if this were the NFL, Rocco would have been fired already. Possibly years ago after his first late season collapse.

100% , he has no feel for the game, whether when to pull SP’s… constantly pulling the starters that are rolling with low to manageable pitch counts because the opposing lineup is coming up for their 3rd AB, only to have his choice of reliever to immediately squander the lead…. Twice that I remember already this year. Flip flopping Jax and Duran for the closer role… here’s a f** clue… Jax is your setup man and Duran is your closer. This has cost the team a win this year. Leading off with Wallner, absolutely brilliant… not. Starting Gasper at second may have cost them a game. Point being Rocco is awful, costing the team 3 maybe 4 wins with his lame decisions, which is a 6-8 game swing. Here's another thought on pulling starters, it's not like these opposing batters haven't faced them before, multiple times, they know who they are facing as the same the pitcher is well aware of the hitters tendencies. It's asinine to handle the starters the way he does and then look for sympathy because the BP is being overused. Do the players see what most of us see? Are they playing  hard and buying in for a guy that is this lost... Sorry for the rant, but it's time to pull the plug on Rocco. It's early and there is time to bring in fresh leadership, even if it's from the minors or outside the organization. 

[OvertheHill]

I’m all in for blowing this thing up, assuming there’s some new energy and FO personnel and philosophy. Maybe half the current roster are guys that I want to watch play next year. This is pathetic and not getting $1 from me. Can’t imagine how you market this mess. 

[RpR]

12 minutes ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

They need to keep their heads up.  Maybe a team meeting or something to stir the pot.  It's too early to give up on the season.  I'm hoping that when Lewis comes back he can help get things going.  If this does not improve, then Rocco needs to get vocal in the clubhouse.  Anything to get them going.

Or maybe a manager who is a Billy Martin style boss, not one who imitates Flounder from Delta Tau Chi

[TheLeviathan]

27 minutes ago, Hubie29 said:

If there isn't an effort problem, then the talent is worse than what we imagine. 

I mean....I don't know why we aren't drawing that conclusion? 

Our everyday regulars are not good.  Buxton should be a 6 hitter.  France, Julien, Miranda, and Bader (some of whom have been ok) should be backups, not regulars.  Wallner and Correa are starting slow.  No one is hitting the ball for power.

Most teams fielding this feeble of a lineup will at least have them be good defenders.  Or athletic.  These guys are slow, softball types but hit like garbage.  The bullpen has had some hilarious collapses to add three losses, but their margin is low because our regulars are just not that talented.  I'm glad the pitching looks good, but our offense is equally as feeble as our pitching is formidable.  

[Hubie29]

6 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I mean....I don't know why we aren't drawing that conclusion? 

Our everyday regulars are not good.  Buxton should be a 6 hitter.  France, Julien, Miranda, and Bader (some of whom have been ok) should be backups, not regulars.  Wallner and Correa are starting slow.  No one is hitting the ball for power.

Most teams fielding this feeble of a lineup will at least have them be good defenders.  Or athletic.  These guys are slow, softball types but hit like garbage.  The bullpen has had some hilarious collapses to add three losses, but their margin is low because our regulars are just not that talented.  I'm glad the pitching looks good, but our offense is equally as feeble as our pitching is formidable.  

Very well said. But I would say adequate instead of formidable. 

[LastOnePicked]

30 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Our everyday regulars are not good.

That's true. They're just-sub-.500 not good. They're playing like sub-.300 not good. That's the problem. Hovering around .500 keeps you in the hunt until prospects arrive or trades are made. Playing 4-11 baseball in April puts you in a hole that's awfully hard to dig out from.

No one here seems to think this is a great team, but remember that they were predicted to win the Central by several sources, so the talent on paper was certainly seen as better than what's materialized.

This isn't a poor start. This is a historic disaster to start 2025, after a historic disaster to finish 2024. That kind of thing will usually get a manager fired. At least, in organizations that have some semblance of standards for achievement.

[LastOnePicked]

1 hour ago, Seth Stohs said:

How is Baldelli influencing their performance?

Poor Aprils. Poor Septembers. If a manager is going to have an influence on preparedness, tone and feel for the game, it's probably in the way a team starts and ends a season.

But if managers don't matter much, as some here suggest, then what could possibly be the harm in replacing him?

I don't get the Rocco defense at this point. I think it's played out, and I don't think it holds water anymore. We've seen the results. The outcomes are clear. Yup, he's a good guy. He'd be a great neighbor. He's not a great manager. Let's go try and get one.

[Woof Bronzer]

1 hour ago, Seth Stohs said:

I don't see a lack of effort from anybody. Correa had a late double, and he's always alert on defense. I would hope no one is actually questioning the effort. 

If your takeaway from these 15 games is "Look at these alert, hard-working guys" then we are watching different sports.  

[T.O.]

2 hours ago, FlyingFinn said:

Kasper (or Gasper or Casper)? Whoever that guy is, like a ghost, I agree he should disappear.

Gasper the friendly toast?

[D.C Twins]

1 hour ago, Seth Stohs said:

How is Baldelli influencing their performance?

He's not...and that is actually part of the problem

[D.C Twins]

1 hour ago, Seth Stohs said:

I don't see a lack of effort from anybody. Correa had a late double, and he's always alert on defense. I would hope no one is actually questioning the effort. 

(narrator's voice) They are questioning the effort

[T.O.]

1 hour ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

Rocco needs to get vocal in the clubhouse.  Anything to get them going.

Is he capable of getting vocal? He can blow up at an umpire but otherwise it's hard to tell if he's even breathing.

Set aside his managerial decisions. If the manager acts like he doesn't care it's bound to rub off on the players.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

They demoted Miranda after the game today, and promoted Lee? 

Do not approve. The last thing these guys need is to be embarrassed. It feels like most every player on the roster doesn't have his head in the game right now. Their heads are not in it. You can tell by looking at them. I guarantee you there are fielders standing out there forgetting the number of outs, but not getting exposed like Miranda did. Sit Miranda on the bench for a couple games if you need to make a statement.

Anyway, the more intelligent transaction would have been to promote Lee before yesterday's game, and let go of Gasper. Which was discussed in last night's game thread. As it happened, Gasper made the final out last night with the tying run on third base. 

And on it goes with this organization. 

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, Hubie29 said:

Very well said. But I would say adequate instead of formidable. 

So far that's fair, but I see a good pitching staff.  It's weird 15 games in...but they feel like they're pressing knowing tht more than 2 runs equals a loss.

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, LastOnePicked said:

That's true. They're just-sub-.500 not good. They're playing like sub-.300 not good. That's the problem. Hovering around .500 keeps you in the hunt until prospects arrive or trades are made. Playing 4-11 baseball in April puts you in a hole that's awfully hard to dig out from.

No one here seems to think this is a great team, but remember that they were predicted to win the Central by several sources, so the talent on paper was certainly seen as better than what's materialized.

This isn't a poor start. This is a historic disaster to start 2025, after a historic disaster to finish 2024. That kind of thing will usually get a manager fired. At least, in organizations that have some semblance of standards for achievement.

Sure, but they won't play at this pace all year either.  They'll likely end up a 75ish win team.  The only way that was going to be different is if the Twins got leaps out of Wallner, Julien, Larnach, Lee, etc.  That doesn't appear to be the case, or certainly isn't so far.

It's a disaster but the biggest culprits were there to be seen a month ago: shoddy infield defense and a lineup that leaves a lot to be desired.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, hitterscount said:

Leading off with Wallner, absolutely brilliant… not.

He's leading the team with a .370 OBP. Isn't that what you want from your leadoff hitter? I think the Wallner as leadoff hitter experiment has been the most successful thing they've tried.

[knothole61]

5 hours ago, tlkriens said:

The Minnesota Twins 4-11 start is tied for the worst 15 game start to begin a season in team history. You have to go back to the 1904 Washington Senators (1-14) to find a worse 15 game start in franchise history.

Great stat...interestingly enough, 1904 was the first season I can remember in my long Senators/Twins fandom. Casey Patten, a strong lefty, was my favorite player during a dismal 38-113 season (.252) when the boys finished a cool 55.5 games out of first. How close will the 2025 Twins come to equalling that ignominy?

[tony&rodney]

Said this elsewhere, would people be calling for the Vikings head coach to be fired if they lost their first game playing poorly and were behind by a 7 points in the third quarter of the second game of the year. Maybe.

FWIW, I'm not a football fan, so I don't know how it works. The Twins are down. They still have not played 10% of the schedule. Atlanta is in last place, and the Angels are in first place. 

I'm not enamored of how the team was put together, three years running now. This is the team Falvey put together. Baldelli, Maki, and the trainers did not choose this team. My biggest complaint is the style of play but the team still has plenty of opportunities to find a winning path. The pitching staff is good. If the Twins can play just slightly below average defense and hit, they should be better ...... soon.

[h2oface]

3 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Finally, a little accountability 

Kinda. Only if you have an option. No accountability for the high paid. Just excuses. But Miranda’s lackadaisical effort was a showcase of the effort and focus this team is showing. I mean, he didn’t even bother to look at the ump, OR EVEN TOUCH SECOND. 
 

Look at the pitching depth that performed well, and the reward is immediate DFA for a managers mismanagement. 

[Vanimal46]

5 hours ago, thelanges5 said:

This roster is going to get somebody fired and it will probably be Rocco. However, this roster was built by the front office. Not Rocco’s fault that he can’t field a team of 26 major leaguers. 

The way this roster is playing will definitely get Rocco fired. If it remains this way he’ll be gone by the end of the month. However, Rocco IMO is just a symptom, and not the cause of the rancid stench coming from this organization. 

The Pohlads aren’t gonna be paying 2 manager salaries, so if Rocco is indeed fired, then Jayce Tingler better get ready to pull double duty as a manager and bench coach. 

[mikelink45]

Their are times where we are unable to come up with appropriate posts.  The team has left me postless.

[knothole61]

5 hours ago, shimrod said:

Twins are beginning to look like one of those movies so bad they're funny. Maybe, to attract viewers, management can hire the MST3K gang to do the broadcast. No more monotone Morneau, no more smarmy, patronizing Provus. Just lean into the comedic possibilities of the 2025 Minnesota Twins. 

 

Okay, Morneau is not a spellbinder, but he's so damn sincere it's hard for me to hate him.  He was such an incredible player until he took one too many shots to his head, and that's really so sad. I think that he had Hall of Fame potential. Provus is actually quite good, I think, a real professional. The cloying deference to the team kind of comes with the territory as a big time broadcaster--yes? It's akin to the coverage of the Masters golf tournament where the hidebound traditionalists who run Augusta insist upon decorum in the broadcast team (Jim Nance is the prototype here) and heaven forbid that anyone call members of the gallery either fans, or the crowd, or even the gallery, it's always patrons...always patrons! Slip up on that one and you'll never be back there again behind the mic. I love the tourney but always get the feeling that those in charge would like to turn the clock back to 1928, or so.     

[T.O.]

11 minutes ago, knothole61 said:

Okay, Morneau is not a spellbinder, but he's so damn sincere it's hard for me to hate him.  He was such an incredible player until he took one too many shots to his head, and that's really so sad. I think that he had Hall of Fame potential. Provus is actually quite good, I think, a real professional. The cloying deference to the team kind of comes with the territory as a big time broadcaster--yes?

I like Morneau because he is sincere and thoughtful. Provus is great.
I would think it's in their contracts that they not speak ill of the players, manager, FO, Owners, etc. I don't think they have a choice.

[knothole61]

3 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

To be fair, if this were the NFL, Rocco would have been fired already. Possibly years ago after his first late season collapse.

And...if your 2 NFL losses were to the tune of 35-6 and 31-0 you might be a bit more concerned. 

[knothole61]

3 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

Jose Miranda makes barely over the league minimum. 

Also, if mental errors or lack of concentration got a person fired, would any of us have jobs? 

Wow...well then, are any of us highly-paid athletes? Is it all just the same Seth? 

[USAFChief]

3 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

How is Baldelli influencing their performance?

How is a MLB manager influencing their performance?

Is this a serious question??

Just in case:

Who sets the lineup? Makes substitutions? Makes pitching decisions?

Who sets priorities? Provides means and strategies  to achieve them? Rewards positive behaviors and punishes poor ones?  Who establishes what a team works on and prioritizes from February to October? 

Who decides if infeld/outfield is taken, DAILY? Determines cutoff rotation strategies and ensures every member of the team understands and follows them? Who determines what remedial actions are necessary when those rotation strategies dont haooen? Who decides to bring the infield in in the second inning? Have his pitcher forego the slide step, his catcher stay on one knee, and NEVER EVER pitch out even in obvious stealing situations?

Who decides batting practice is required, or leaves it up to players? 

Who decides if it's ok to jog to 1st on ground balls and pop-ups?

I can go on and on but you already know all this. You're just not willing to admit these, and many other things, fall on the manager.

And the results are quite apparent. They've been apparent for some time--a long tims--even if full impact has been masked by playing in the ALC.

Fire his ass.

People lose their jobs for poor performance all the time, in all walks of life. Rocco is nothing special, deserving of his job just because someone gave it to him, or because he said hi to you once in Ft Myers.

Baseball managers have been getting fired for 150 years. This is a zero sum business. For every loss, someone wins. And that's the ultimate job performance metric. 

 

 

 

[Parfigliano]

5 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

I've read all the comments and agree with most of them , time is now for a shake up ...

Rocco needs to go and some coaching to ...

Alot of players not doing good , what is the real reason  , manager and coaching , have the players lost respect of their manager and coaches , I say yes they have , Lopez not telling maki he pulled his hammy is a clear sign that they are losing the managerial's respect ...

I almost wish there wasn't a game tomorrow because I like to stay busy but I also like watching baseball but feel I'm wasting my time on my team ...

Watch the Mets.  It's what I do 

[Parfigliano]

4 hours ago, Linus said:

My Twins fan experience today was to turn on the radio and listen to Attebery talk about the size of Bruce Bochy head for an entire half inning. Turned it off. Got home and turned on the TV just in time to see Miranda’s brilliant baserunning. Turned it off.

The Twins are horrible at fundamentals and have been for years. 

Drives me nuts when other network/team broadcasters talk about how TC plays the game the right way... fundamentally sound.  Yeah under TK, Gardy, Molitor.

 

[Parfigliano]

4 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

How is Baldelli influencing their performance?

For sure not in any positive direction.

[Seth Stohs]

41 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

How is a MLB manager influencing their performance?

Is this a serious question??

Just in case:

Who sets the lineup? Makes substitutions? Makes pitching decisions?

Who sets priorities? Provides means and strategies  to achieve them? Rewards positive behaviors and punishes poor ones?  Who establishes what a team works on and prioritizes from February to October? 

Who decides if infeld/outfield is taken, DAILY? Determines cutoff rotation strategies and ensures every member of the team understands and follows them? Who determines what remedial actions are necessary when those rotation strategies dont haooen? Who decides to bring the infield in in the second inning? Have his pitcher forego the slide step, his catcher stay on one knee, and NEVER EVER pitch out even in obvious stealing situations?

Who decides batting practice is required, or leaves it up to players? 

Who decides if it's ok to jog to 1st on ground balls and pop-ups?

I can go on and on but you already know all this. You're just not willing to admit these, and many other things, fall on the manager.

And the results are quite apparent. They've been apparent for some time--a long tims--even if full impact has been masked by playing in the ALC.

Fire his ass.

People lose their jobs for poor performance all the time, in all walks of life. Rocco is nothing special, deserving of his job just because someone gave it to him, or because he said hi to you once in Ft Myers.

Baseball managers have been getting fired for 150 years. This is a zero sum business. For every loss, someone wins. And that's the ultimate job performance metric. 

I get that, and I get that if the Twins don't turn things around within (potentially) weeks, firing Baldelli will just happen because that's what teams do. 

Who makes the lineup? Who comes up with substitutions, etc? That is all the manager, but 1.) the manager doesn't determine the roster, and who those bench options are. The manager also isn't the one not hitting. He's not the one pitching. He's not the one fielding. 

Priorities and strategies? That'd be the front office, GMs, POB, managers, coaches, advisors.

Who decides if batting practice or infield is taken. The game time, the weather the training staff, players, manager, 

Jogging down the bases on GB or FO... Trainers in conjunction with the manager, front office, etc. 

Yes, the manager is the one who pretty much always takes the blame and gets fired, but we all know that it's so much more than that. We also know that it's largely on the players... or on the front office for the players on the roster that are responsible.