It Took Nine (9) Games for the 2025 Minnesota Twins to Hit a Bullpen Crunch

[bean5302]

1 hour ago, DJL44 said:

Travis Adams could come up and pitch long relief.

I'd like to see him piggyback with SWR, but Adams just pitched yesterday. Cory Lewis would be a good call for that, I think.

[IndianaTwin]

1 hour ago, Patzky said:

Is there a ten or fourteen day turnaround for recalling Dobnak?

Not sure it's either. 😀

I suspect you are thinking about optioned players. For an optioned player, it's 10 days for a position player and 15 for a pitcher, unless they are replacing someone who goes on the IL, in which case it can happen immediately. 

In Dobnak's case, he was not optioned, but designated for assignment and put on waivers, where no one claimed him. Thus the Twins were able to outright assign him to St. Paul, which is different than optioning.

I don't know what that means in terms of time to stay in St. Paul. Had he been picked up by another team, for example, they could have activated him immediately. Since no one claimed him, I don't know if that means they can call him up sooner than 15 days.

In practical terms, he threw 75 pitches over five innings yesterday, so he's not available until at least Thursday, more likely Friday. 

[bean5302]

16 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

Not sure it's either. 😀

I suspect you are thinking about optioned players. For an optioned player, it's 10 days for a position player and 15 for a pitcher, unless they are replacing someone who goes on the IL, in which case it can happen immediately. 

In Dobnak's case, he was not optioned, but designated for assignment and put on waivers, where no one claimed him. Thus the Twins were able to outright assign him to St. Paul, which is different than optioning.

I don't know what that means in terms of time to stay in St. Paul. Had he been picked up by another team, for example, they could have activated him immediately. Since no one claimed him, I don't know if that means they can call him up sooner than 15 days.

In practical terms, he threw 75 pitches over five innings yesterday, so he's not available until at least Thursday, more likely Friday. 

@IndianaTwin @Patzky

No delay on adding Dobnak to the 40 man roster and calling him up. As noted, Dobnak won't be available for at least 4-5 more days because of the pitches thrown.

When a player is DFA'd, they're exposed to all 29 teams and given an immediate opportunity to be added to another team's active roster. It's not a viable way to manipulate roster limits for what is almost exclusively young player talent so there aren't any mandatory recall timeframes which have to be observed. If a player is good enough for MLB, the chances they have a contract which prevents another team from claiming them before that player has 5 years of service time is almost non-existent.

Dobnak has not been MLB worthy the last few years, but should he continue to impress on his opportunities, the likelihood he gets claimed continues to increase on the DFA/waive/assign/purchase/callup/DFA cycle. After all, Dobnak's contract is $4MM including next year's $1MM buyout. Pretty dirt cheap for a guy who could intrigue a team as a back end starter or long reliever.

The minimum 15 day option rule it to prevent teams from effectively expanding their rosters.

[Twins_Fan_in_NJ]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Guy who can be depended on to pitch multiple innings effectively are unicorns. Generally they're called starters. And if you DO have one, they're unavailable for.several days at a time after you use them once.

They TRIED McCaughan yesterday. He couldn't get through even an inning. 

Because "long relievers" are a good idea that mostly don't exist.

Yup Long relievers are great in theory but in reality, they're not necessarily a thing. 

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, GopherJeff said:

When a SP only pitches 4 or 5 innings, why not use a "long" reliever - someone that can go 2-3 innings - before going to the standard one-inning-per-pitcher route. This could be a dedicated RP or someone that could potentially be a SP when the string of consecutive games, w/o a day off, gets long.

They might not have to pitch 2-3 full innings. Coulombe faced one batter, why can't he pitch in the next inning?

[Parfigliano]

1 hour ago, GopherJeff said:

When a SP only pitches 4 or 5 innings, why not use a "long" reliever - someone that can go 2-3 innings - before going to the standard one-inning-per-pitcher route. This could be a dedicated RP or someone that could potentially be a SP when the string of consecutive games, w/o a day off, gets long.

Rocco not that smart and totally chained to his ways

[Patzky]

6 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

@IndianaTwin @Patzky

No delay on adding Dobnak to the 40 man roster and calling him up. As noted, Dobnak won't be available for at least 4-5 more days because of the pitches thrown.

When a player is DFA'd, they're exposed to all 29 teams and given an immediate opportunity to be added to another team's active roster. It's not a viable way to manipulate roster limits for what is almost exclusively young player talent so there aren't any mandatory recall timeframes which have to be observed. If a player is good enough for MLB, the chances they have a contract which prevents another team from claiming them before that player has 5 years of service time is almost non-existent.

Dobnak has not been MLB worthy the last few years, but should he continue to impress on his opportunities, the likelihood he gets claimed continues to increase on the DFA/waive/assign/purchase/callup/DFA cycle. After all, Dobnak's contract is $4MM including next year's $1MM buyout. Pretty dirt cheap for a guy who could intrigue a team as a back end starter or long reliever.

The minimum 15 day option rule it to prevent teams from effectively expanding their rosters.

Thanks for clarifying! 

[Mark G]

I don't mean for this to be considered off topic, but it reminds me of a debate going on today about paying college athletes; is it way past due and the athletes should have been getting paid all along, or is it destroying college athletics, one paper cut at a time until it bleeds to death.  It is a debate that can't be won until hind sight gives us a crystal clear picture of the era.

This is similar in my extremely humble opinion.  Starters doing their job as baseball has always seen it in the past and relievers backing them up, or starters settling for 4 or 5 innings of all out effort and bullpens having to pitch 40-45% of the innings in a season.  How does a good manager handle the workloads of each, and on and on and on.  Again, it is a debate that will never be truly over until hindsight gives us that clear picture of the era.  

One of the prime areas of the debate is the role of the "long reliever" and what that even means anymore.  Growing up, the long man was what Dobnak did in his game early on.  2 innings or just over that was nowhere near what a "long" reliever was, it was what ever a reliever was needed for that game.  You had 10 man pitching staffs, and starters were expected to pitch their games.  Now, I am told that was on another planet far, far away in the galaxy and cannot be considered in "today's" game.  Today we have options, DFA, outright release, free agent signings.........sorry, I can't keep up with it all.  We have 13 man staffs and can't keep them healthy even into May, needing pipelines from AAA all season just to get through a season, and if the AAA guys were good enough to be here, they wouldn't be in AAA........now I really can't keep up with it all.  

Now, I will be told everything I have been told over recent years, and I will roll my eyes, just as a lot of you all are rolling yours at me now.  😉  But, as I was saying, it is a debate that is great to have, but will never be won until hind sight wins it for us.  As for today, the starters had better get their game together, or the overuse of the pen is going to be our downfall.  But, as always, I could be wrong.  As a matter of fact, I can still remember the time I was.  🤭

[IndianaTwin]

19 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

@IndianaTwin @Patzky

No delay on adding Dobnak to the 40 man roster and calling him up. As noted, Dobnak won't be available for at least 4-5 more days because of the pitches thrown.

When a player is DFA'd, they're exposed to all 29 teams and given an immediate opportunity to be added to another team's active roster. It's not a viable way to manipulate roster limits for what is almost exclusively young player talent so there aren't any mandatory recall timeframes which have to be observed. If a player is good enough for MLB, the chances they have a contract which prevents another team from claiming them before that player has 5 years of service time is almost non-existent.

Dobnak has not been MLB worthy the last few years, but should he continue to impress on his opportunities, the likelihood he gets claimed continues to increase on the DFA/waive/assign/purchase/callup/DFA cycle. After all, Dobnak's contract is $4MM including next year's $1MM buyout. Pretty dirt cheap for a guy who could intrigue a team as a back end starter or long reliever.

The minimum 15 day option rule it to prevent teams from effectively expanding their rosters.

Thanks. I suspected that the was the case on DFAs for the reason you explained, but I didn't want to offer it as a declarative statement. 

 

And I've thought the same on the probability of Dobnak being claimed inching up, particularly if he continues to show something. Also add in that the remaining obligation is already under $4M in that the Twins have paid a portion of this year's salary. The remaining obligation will also be inching down. By mid-year for example, a claiming team will only be on the hook for $2.5M ($1.5 for the remainder of this year and $1M for the buyout).

The nice thing, of course, is that if he pitches well enough for other teams to consider claiming him, he's likely pitched well enough that the Twins don't want to DFA him. 

 

[mikelink45]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

Around here, that'd be grounds for writers designating him as a dark horse for the 2025 Cy Young along with the rest of the elite Twins' rotation.

Seriously, though, nice for Henriquez to look good out of the gate like that for Miami. It'll get him a longer leash this year and he might even catch on long term as a middle reliever. That said, a 4.50 FIP last year in AAA to go along with his career AAA ERA of 5.09 don't sparkle very much.

But then it is Miami and somehow they have figured out how to use pitcher to their maximum strength.

[Reptevia]

2 hours ago, GopherJeff said:

When a SP only pitches 4 or 5 innings, why not use a "long" reliever - someone that can go 2-3 innings - before going to the standard one-inning-per-pitcher route. This could be a dedicated RP or someone that could potentially be a SP when the string of consecutive games, w/o a day off, gets long.

HERETIC!  How dare you question the roster construction or Rocco’s flawless management!!!

[IndianaTwin]

31 minutes ago, Mark G said:

...  But, as always, I could be wrong.  As a matter of fact, I can still remember the time I was.  🤭

🤭

What's the saying? I was wrong once -- it was the time I thought I was wrong, but I wasn't. 😀

 

[Russ]

If you watch a TV broadcast, we're told of a elite bullpen 

[bean5302]

19 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

But then it is Miami and somehow they have figured out how to use pitcher to their maximum strength.

Miami relief pitching and starting pitching ERA rank:
2024 = 22nd and 29th
2023 = 21st and 8th
2022 = 22nd and 8th
2021 = 7th and 13th
2020 = 26th and 14th
2019 = 25th and 16th
2018 = 30th and 20th
2017 = 21st and 26th

The Marlins have had quite a bit of success with trades as they sell off all their assets, but they've got very little in the way of draft/development. Alcantara, Lopez, Luzardo, they were all trade acquisitions. Braxton Garrett was a 7th overall draft pick who looks like he's panning out, though. Aside from that, the reliever history isn't stunningly great or anything.

[KBJ1]

Zebby, Dobnak, Festa, whoever as the long reliever to piggyback SWR or whoever makes the most sense.

[The Great Hambino]

A manager can't really help it much if his starters are constantly failing to get to the fifth inning.  Stack a few of those together, and no amount of effective bullpen management will avoid the crunch.

But a manager absolutely can control starter usage when they are pitching effectively, or at least aren't letting the game get away early.  You don't know what the next few days will being you in terms of start length (especially with this rotation so far) so you need to squeeze whatever you can out of them when they're on to avoid using bullpen resources when you don't have to.

Not that he's had a lot of chances in this department so far this year, but I think Rocco has shown mixed results in this area.  It's easy to imagine him pulling Lopez after 6 in his good start based on track record, but letting him take the 7th meant one less bullpen arm compromised going forward.  On the other hand, I know Ober was about as sharp as a butter knife in his second start, but he was at 84 pitches with a 5 run lead going into the 5th.  I think he should've sent him out instead of going to the bullpen there.  Even if he doesn't finish the inning, you're giving yourself a chance to save one more arm going forward.  But he didn't, and then Paddack does his thing the following day, and now you're relying on SWR to relieve the stress on your bullpen with no off days in sight.  Not a good spot to be in.

And if we must keep Paddack around for the time being, can we at least get him away from SWR in the rotation?  I'm starting to get Bundy-Archer vibes with that arrangement

[djm24]

1 hour ago, Russ said:

If you watch a TV broadcast, we're told of a elite bullpen 

I don't watched the broadcasts, but if they were referring to the Twins bullpen, I wonder what was in the kook-aid they were drinking!

[Bodie]

6 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Nobody needs to be sent down. The 4 available relievers are plenty adequate. Panic is not much of a plan. Going forward the Twins will need to think about where Paddack realistically fits, but Falvey won't allow that change yet. Falvey sets the roster, Baldelli decides who plays.

WTF is Paddack getting into ANY  game that is within 10 runs???

And after yesterday's game, I'd amend that to games where the Twins are down 10.  Wouldn't trust him to come in for the 9th up 10-0.  Put him out with this week's trash.  3 years later, but... that's where he belongs. 

[Road trip]

Any franchise that can re-invent the 2 inning reliever would have a serious competitive advantage.

This type of pitcher used to be common... many pitchers would would make 40-50 appearances and throw 100 innings of relief.  Heck, guys like Mike Marshall and Bill Campbell used to blow past 100 innings with ease.  Even flame throwers like Rich Gossage did it many times.  This type of reliever disappeared roughly a generation ago. 

Modern strategy has changed that.  Teams are trading short term progress (win today, or even "win this at-bat") at the cost of long term setbacks (burn out the bullpen by June... or earlier).  It's a bad trade.

[jorgenswest]

A few bullpen use notes…

The bullpen has faced 28 batters in high leverage situations according to Baseball Reference.

• 10 Jax
• 6 Varland
• 4 Alcala
• 3 McCaughan and Sands
• 1 Topa and Coulombe

Did I forget anyone?

The 8th man in the pen has pitched 10.2 innings. Varland is next from the bullpen at 6. Topa and Sands have 4 each. Duran(3.1), Coulombe(3.1), Alcala(3) and Jax(2.2) each about 3.

[jmlease1]

Would the Twins be better off from a bullpen standpoint if they sequenced their starters like this? Lopez-SWR-Ryan-Ober-Paddack? Since they seem to not let SWR go as deep, but he's also less likely to get skipped for health than Paddack, wouldn't this fit better and give you a better chance of not overstressing your bullpen? Ryan and Lopez are both pretty proven as inning-eaters (as much as anyone is in today's game), and even when they're not as sharp they have the best chance of gutting out 5-6 innings, while also showing an ability to go 6-7 with reasonable consistency.

probably too radical, and would bruise someone's ego too much by their placement.

[USAFChief]

32 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

Would the Twins be better off from a bullpen standpoint if they sequenced their starters like this? Lopez-SWR-Ryan-Ober-Paddack? Since they seem to not let SWR go as deep, but he's also less likely to get skipped for health than Paddack, wouldn't this fit better and give you a better chance of not overstressing your bullpen? Ryan and Lopez are both pretty proven as inning-eaters (as much as anyone is in today's game), and even when they're not as sharp they have the best chance of gutting out 5-6 innings, while also showing an ability to go 6-7 with reasonable consistency.

probably too radical, and would bruise someone's ego too much by their placement.

How do you get there from here any time soon? 

Gonna  need a minimum of one properly timed off day to make changes to the rotation. 

Could use a bullpen day I guess, but that doesn't do much to take innings off the pen. At least in the short term.

Maybe a rainout, if properly timed.

Personally I don't think it's the order anyway. I'd rather take Paddack out of the rotation than move him within it. 

[jmlease1]

13 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

How do you get there from here any time soon? 

Gonna  need a minimum of one properly timed off day to make changes to the rotation. 

Could use a bullpen day I guess, but that doesn't do much to take innings off the pen. At least in the short term.

Maybe a rainout, if properly timed.

Personally I don't think it's the order anyway. I'd rather take Paddack out of the rotation than move him within it. 

probably can't do it now, or at least not until the all-star break without either an injury or some off-days. But might have made a lot more sense to start the season. I'm unenthusiastic about paddack as well, but as long as he's healthy he's going to get some additional chances; having him in the "5th" spot makes him the easiest to skip IMHO.

not sure how we'd get there, but it might be a better way to structure your rotation in general, rather than go "best-2nd best-3rd best-4th best-5th best".

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

11 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

not sure how we'd get there, but it might be a better way to structure your rotation in general, rather than go "best-2nd best-3rd best-4th best-5th best".

I feel like they did that recently, I vaguely remember some dustup about who got to start on opening day and it wasn't the acknowledged Ace of the staff (Berrios? Gray? Don't remember) because they wanted to arrange the starters optimally. And that generated some discussion. But now it's back to 1-2-3-4-5, right.

I feel like it's easier to juggle guys around the rotation than not, somebody skips a day, add in a bullpen day, and shazam you have a new pitching order. MIght even be wise to look at favorable matchups on the schedule ahead. Just be sure to get buy-in from the pitchers and let them know! 

[Russ]

Does MLB follow the Milb where they are off every Monday with Tuesday thru Sunday series to avoid "all the games before the next day off" ?

[mikelink45]

17 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Miami relief pitching and starting pitching ERA rank:
2024 = 22nd and 29th
2023 = 21st and 8th
2022 = 22nd and 8th
2021 = 7th and 13th
2020 = 26th and 14th
2019 = 25th and 16th
2018 = 30th and 20th
2017 = 21st and 26th

The Marlins have had quite a bit of success with trades as they sell off all their assets, but they've got very little in the way of draft/development. Alcantara, Lopez, Luzardo, they were all trade acquisitions. Braxton Garrett was a 7th overall draft pick who looks like he's panning out, though. Aside from that, the reliever history isn't stunningly great or anything.

Thanks for the correction. I meant Tampa Bay for got my Florida James mixed up. Although Miami has come up with enough good pictures that they've traded them around and unfortunately for the team they make lousy trades. 

[jorgenswest]

After two times through the rotation the 8th man in the bullpen is the Twins leader in innings pitched with 13. They are on pace to get 210.2 innings from that spot in the bullpen. In those 13 innings they have given up 8 hits, struck out 9 and walked 3 with an ERA of 1.38.