Twins Land Former Top Prospect Diego Cartaya in Trade With Dodgers

[Hubie29]

I can see why it took a couple months to pull off this high magnitude trade.

[Riverbrian]

49 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Intangibles are important. I believe in intangibles. They are skill boosters. But they aren't skill creators. And if your main "skill" is your intangibles you should be a coach. In my opinion.

 

Intangibles are not understandable. Hard to see how valuable yet possibly passable.

At 10 million dollars... taxable.

[mikelink45]

So far he worth one TD essay and nothing more.  No excitement here.

[Schmoeman5]

5 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

Ouch that hurt. My brain is feeling that. Kinda like eating ice cream too fast. 

OK... but... since I've imagined that .375 OPS. I was reading the wrapper on the ice cream packaging.  

It says that .375 won't solve our problems but it also won't cost 10 million that we don't have. 

Having an option remaining means he can be sent down if he .375's it. And if he uses up that option and he is still .375 OPS'ing it next year. You don't care if he passes through waivers in 2026.  

It's a dice roll... I'd start him in the minors and let him compete with Camargo for next man up. But... I would have my finger on the eject button ready on Vazquez in June if he's going to keep the under .600 crap. 

Vazquez for the past two years has been bypassing the taste buds to drop the entire tub of Bridgeman's directly onto my brain. 

 

 

Is Bridgemans good ice cream?  I'm kind of a snob when it comes to ice cream. San Diego has Neiderfranks. Detroit has Ashbys. Seattle has Tillamook via Oregon. Hey. Instead of brain freeze maybe I should take on the best of each city. Road trips planned for 2025 besides Minnesota will hopefully be Atlanta Cinci Cleveland and Sox or Cubs. Sorry to get off topic. Ice cream = kryptonite

[TopGunn#22]

This is a decent move.  Vasquez was a nobody in the Twins system.  Not one team will miss whatever innings he would have pitched.  My expectations are low for Cartaya.  But he was once highly regarded.  There is "potential" there but a lot needs to be improved and refined.  He's literally a lottery ticket, literally.  If you scratch off and get nothing, you shrug your shoulders and toss the ticket away.  If you win, well, it was against the odds but the investment was worth it.  

[Twodogs]

7 hours ago, HerbieFan said:

Geez, credit to Cody Pirkl for basically calling this one!

https://twinsdaily.com/forums/topic/69293-roki-sasaki-veteran-trades-and-other-big-questions-facing-the-twins-this-offseason/page/2/?&_rid=4351#findComment-1472369

 

Hey I brought it up in a half assed comment even before Cody wrote a well written and informed article about it.  Ha ha.  Hopefully it works out for the Twins, but in reality it's a move that just didn't cost them anything.  Hopin' the Twins can make some noise this year!!  

[Blyleven2011]

I was on the road all day so I checked into trade rumors and saw the twins made a trade ...

I chuckled ...

Once a promising prospect , still improving on defense but hitting has gone south  of the mendoza line , hope in a year he can get it together with a change of scenery  ...

[jorgenswest]

The Twins have one year to fix his bat and his throwing before he is out of options. The upside is there. To have any chance at that upside they have to work with him at AAA for the bulk of the season and find other payers to remove from the 40 when they have a need.

The cost of the trade is not only Jose Vazquez but it is also a 40 man roster spot. At some point the Twins will have a need to remove a fringe player from the 40. If that player doesn’t pass through waivers it will be part of the cost of this deal.

I would have done this deal. Catchers are a premium. He has more upside the other catchers in the organization.

[Blyleven2011]

3 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

Plus WAR doesn't justify enough the defense & intangibles which is essential to catching. & he's considered by most here as a backup catcher. His defense including his intangibles is always dependable, his durability plus scoring a few runs here & there & getting some game-winners what more do you need from a backup catcher he's not a DH, defense matters. Good point NYCTK, why do so many hate him, it's not his fault that Falvey overpaid him (I'm afraid when you put money in Falvey's hands).

Good logic doc  ,

While lots of others don't think Vazquez defense is above average  , I do , so I guess i must be watching the games with rose colored glasses because i see him doing everything right ...

I'll take Vazquez's defense , smarts and durability over jeffers any day  ...

It's falvey and the pohlads who signed off on signing him for 10 million a year and fans should get over that , we needed a solid catcher and they signed one  ...

Is Vazquez worth the money , nobody is worth the money that these players are getting  , in my day there wasn't so many prima donnas  as today , we played because we loved the game ...

Last twins player that I have seen play for the love of the game is luis ( major leaguer )  arraez  ...

[Doctor Gast]

11 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I'm not trying to be combative, honestly want to know your feelings on the below numbers. I agree catching defense matters, but isn't the point of catcher defense to improve the pitching staff so they give up fewer runs? Back-to-back years Jeffers has had the better ERA and RA9 while pretty evenly splitting catching duties (both starting 81 games last year) and having neither catcher get special privileges of catching superior pitchers. Based on these numbers do you truly feel Vazquez is the defensive catcher on the Twins staff?

2023:
Vazquez- ERA: 4.09 RA9: 4.28
Jeffers-    ERA: 3.67 RA9: 3.86

2024:
Vazquez- ERA: 4.34 RA9: 4.63
Jeffers-    ERA: 4.17 RA9: 4.54

Come on you love to be combative. Here you cherry picked on a minor part of what I called intangibles. & came up with that. 

Sabermetrician Bill James also performed research into CERA, finding that while it is possible that catchers may have a significant effect on a pitching staff, there is too much yearly variation in CERA for it to be a reliable indicator of ability.^[1] James used simulations of catchers with assigned defensive values to directly compare CERAs, which influenced Woolner to perform similar simulations but instead using weighted events to calculate pitchers' runs per plate appearance.^[1] Through this, Woolner concluded that even if catchers do have an effect on pitchers' abilities to prevent runs, it is undetectable and thus has no practical usage.^[1]

Intangibles are what they are, intangibles.

What do I think of this data?     I don't trust any data. Because some people can find data & make say what they want it to say. When my eyes & ears tell me differently, usually they are what wins out.

[chpettit19]

30 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Come on you love to be combative. Here you cherry picked on a minor part of what I called intangibles. & came up with that. 

Sabermetrician Bill James also performed research into CERA, finding that while it is possible that catchers may have a significant effect on a pitching staff, there is too much yearly variation in CERA for it to be a reliable indicator of ability.^[1] James used simulations of catchers with assigned defensive values to directly compare CERAs, which influenced Woolner to perform similar simulations but instead using weighted events to calculate pitchers' runs per plate appearance.^[1] Through this, Woolner concluded that even if catchers do have an effect on pitchers' abilities to prevent runs, it is undetectable and thus has no practical usage.^[1]

Intangibles are what they are, intangibles.

I love to challenge things, absolutely. And I love to be challenged, I think everyone should because I think everyone should be able to defend their stances and opinions with well thought out arguments. It's how we maintain a well educated and thoughtful society. But I wasn't challenging anything about intangibles here. In fact, I didn't even say the word "intangibles" in that post. Other people brought up intangibles in other posts. I was challenging the idea that he's a superior defender. You've stated that you essentially don't care if a catcher doesn't hit at all because he's there for defense. What is the defensive purpose of a catcher if it isn't to help pitcher's prevent runs? 

I'm not sure what you want me to take out of that Wikipedia entry. "It is possible that catchers may have a significant effect on a pitching staff." Most of the defensive metrics we have today have a lot of yearly variation.

Carlos Correa's OAA for his career go -18, -2, 23, 11, 4, 10, -3, 1, 5. Not exactly stable. He apparently had no idea how to catch a ball when he arrived. Turned into Ozzie Smith by his 3rd season. And 2 years later was just a little above average before being below average 2 years after that.

JT Realmuto's catcher runs go -8, 5, 5, 21, 5, 7, 13, -9, 0. So he was awful, solidly above average, prime Johnny Bench, then immediately back to solidly above average, really, really good, then completely forgot how to catch, and then average?

Point being that we haven't figured out defensive stats yet and there's year to year variance in basically all of them. You're big on catcher defense. You say it's really the only thing a catcher needs to do. I think it's important, too. But the importance I see in it is managing the pitching staff so that they pitch well and limit runs. Is there a different defensive goal you have for your catchers that isn't focused on the pitchers limiting runs that would make the fact that the pitchers have allowed fewer runs with Jeffers behind the plate both seasons Vazquez has been here not mean anything?

[AlwaysinModeration]

6 hours ago, Fatbat said:

This is not a notable trade at the moment. Its also at best a 27% chance of ever bearing mlb fruit. 

Oddly specific 

[saviking]

Seems like the Dodgers gave him away. Doesn't give me much confidence. 

[TaterTot]

 

Quote

Same with Royce, although his clubhouse issues are concerning to me going forward. 

Clubhouse issues? I wasn’t aware of any clubhouse issues with Royce Lewis, seems like a nice guy to me.

[Jocko87]

45 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Intangibles are what they are, intangibles.

Sbrnerds hate intangibles mainly because they can't be measured.  Data boys hate anything they can't measure, often to their detriment.  Teams and coaches love them.  But both agree that the player has to be able to play first.

8 hours ago, Fire Dan Gladden said:

Sorry, but any other year and this move is barely a blip on the radar.  The Twins needed another system catcher and they got one for nothing.  At least this move gives us something to talk about.

But today, 100+ posts.

I can't really see that this does anything for the 2025 squad.  It feels as simple as a former top prospect catcher, available for a song, to a team with jack nothing in the minor league catching ranks.  We've talked many times about the lack of anyone who can catch in the organization and this just makes sense from that standpoint.  

 

[dxpavelka]

Interesting that a team that has only used two catchers at the big league level for two season has now traded for two more in three weeks.

[Greglw3]

12 hours ago, HerbieFan said:

Geez, credit to Cody Pirkl for basically calling this one!

Yep! Now I wish Cody would teach me how to will Jurickson Profar onto our roster!

[Greglw3]

Even as an often critic of Falvey, given that they’re literally on the budget that I was on as a kid when we went to the Ben Franklin 5 and 10 cent store (usually $1), I like this move a lot. A closer look at his minor league stats shows 4 different stops with very high OBP, upwards of .400 and above. Even last year as a 22 year old, he did hit 11 homers and I think a .354 OBP.

I also look at it like, if you’re going to take a guy that couldn’t fit, it’s best to do it from the free spending, talent laden Dodgers. I bet this will age well, you don’t get ranked the Dodger’s #1 prospect for any reason but you’re very talented.

I like the Gasper move too due to his on base proclivity.

I didn’t like the Mike Ford move.

It would be nice if the soon to be owners could say, Hey Derek, you have the green light to expand the payroll by 30 million.

[Althebum82]

The Twins were down a couple of minor league catchers to help handle spring training.  This is his value.  Do not expect anything more than that. 

[Doctor Wu]

15 hours ago, High heat said:

You would assume Vasquez or Jeffers will be on the move shortly.

I wouldn't make an assumption like that just yet. We added some catching depth, but it's still basically another minor league player who is not quite ready for the show.

[Mark G]

Personally, I am speechless; I still can't get over Brandon throwing in the word superfluous.  Haven't seen that word in years and it proves just how good this writing staff truly is.  😇 

[Mark G]

8 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

I love to challenge things, absolutely. And I love to be challenged, I think everyone should because I think everyone should be able to defend their stances and opinions with well thought out arguments. It's how we maintain a well educated and thoughtful society. But I wasn't challenging anything about intangibles here. In fact, I didn't even say the word "intangibles" in that post. Other people brought up intangibles in other posts. I was challenging the idea that he's a superior defender. You've stated that you essentially don't care if a catcher doesn't hit at all because he's there for defense. What is the defensive purpose of a catcher if it isn't to help pitcher's prevent runs? 

I'm not sure what you want me to take out of that Wikipedia entry. "It is possible that catchers may have a significant effect on a pitching staff." Most of the defensive metrics we have today have a lot of yearly variation.

Carlos Correa's OAA for his career go -18, -2, 23, 11, 4, 10, -3, 1, 5. Not exactly stable. He apparently had no idea how to catch a ball when he arrived. Turned into Ozzie Smith by his 3rd season. And 2 years later was just a little above average before being below average 2 years after that.

JT Realmuto's catcher runs go -8, 5, 5, 21, 5, 7, 13, -9, 0. So he was awful, solidly above average, prime Johnny Bench, then immediately back to solidly above average, really, really good, then completely forgot how to catch, and then average?

Point being that we haven't figured out defensive stats yet and there's year to year variance in basically all of them. You're big on catcher defense. You say it's really the only thing a catcher needs to do. I think it's important, too. But the importance I see in it is managing the pitching staff so that they pitch well and limit runs. Is there a different defensive goal you have for your catchers that isn't focused on the pitchers limiting runs that would make the fact that the pitchers have allowed fewer runs with Jeffers behind the plate both seasons Vazquez has been here not mean anything?

Personally, I enjoy your give and takes.  When I read a story and the comments afterwards, I intentionally look for Chpettit19 and Doctor Gast; two of the most knowledgeable and detailed folks on the site.  So when you talk to each other I immediately perk up.  Don't ever stop; I don't always agree, but I always learn something.  

[chpettit19]

9 hours ago, Jocko87 said:

Sbrnerds hate intangibles mainly because they can't be measured.  Data boys hate anything they can't measure, often to their detriment.  Teams and coaches love them.  But both agree that the player has to be able to play first.

I'm probably considered a "sbrnerd" or "data boy," but I love intangibles. Said I believe in them in this thread. They're important. They boost skills. They were actually discussed quite frequently and very positively in every analytics job I had. Nobody "hated" them. They may have wished they could measure them, but they didn't hate them nor deny their existence. Like you said, a guy needs to be able to play first, though. Otherwise, they're just a coach. 

I do struggle with the idea of people outside the clubhouse/organization having too strong of opinions on intangibles and player personalities, though. We can gather a little bit of info from interviews and what the media tell us, but we're not in the clubhouse. It's why I personally stick to stats as much as I can. I can't tell you what the interpersonal relationships are in the clubhouse. There is actually at least one poster on here who can speak to things a little due to a personal relationship to a player on the Twins roster, but, to my knowledge, none of the rest of us know any of them personally. 

People are always welcome to disagree, and this is a hard to define subject that's easy to disagree on. But, for me, if you can't define/describe that player's intangibles beyond using the word intangibles, or show where their intangibles are improving the performance of the team you haven't convinced me of anything. If the team performs worse with you and your intangibles on the field than the guy who replaces you then I don't really care about your intangibles. I just want the Twins to win. And what gives the Twins the best chance to win are the guys who perform best on the field. 

Manuel Margot can bring a whole wheel barrel of intangibles with him to the plate to pinch hit, but if he goes 0-30 doing it that wheel barrel doesn't impress me and I still don't want him on the team. 

[Riverbrian]

11 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Is Bridgemans good ice cream?  I'm kind of a snob when it comes to ice cream. San Diego has Neiderfranks. Detroit has Ashbys. Seattle has Tillamook via Oregon. Hey. Instead of brain freeze maybe I should take on the best of each city. Road trips planned for 2025 besides Minnesota will hopefully be Atlanta Cinci Cleveland and Sox or Cubs. Sorry to get off topic. Ice cream = kryptonite

As far as I'm concerned. Ice Cream should never be off-topic. There's the wheel, Printing Press, Ice Cream, Telephone and the slinky in the top 5 greatest inventions of all time. 

Mom used to buy Bridgeman's Vanilla by the tub. All Ice Cream is great but... this would be the lower end stuff... it's vanilla flavored air. 

Don't get me wrong... Mom and I were the founding members of the Bridgeman's Ice Cream Club at our house. Eventually, I'd end up saying... Mom... It's you and I. Forget the Bowls... we just need a couple of spoons.  

Later on I discovered Gelato and premium ice cream, I left the club with fond memories. 

I wish I had a recommendation for you in regards to the best ice cream in Minneapolis. I'm sure you will get some decent recommendations.

For a chain... Cold Stone does a nice job with ice cream. 

 

[AlwaysinModeration]

I think this article should be retitled “Twins land former — and soon to be current — top prospect Diego Cartaya.”

[Doctor Gast]

On paper, this looks like a great move, a once top prospect for a nobody in the DSL. Cartaya used to be on my catcher prospect dream list. Power was his calling card & defense was his weakness. He fell off everybody's list when he couldn't hit in the high MiLB. Why was he so terrible? Did pitchers find his "kryptonite"? Was it because of his chronic back problems? Maybe a combination of both? Why did LAD pass on Cartaya for unknown Feduccia? All these are red flags. Can Cartaya adjust to AAA & if so how long would it take for him to adjust to MLB? Can he overcome his chronic back pain? To limit his performance & playing time. Can he improve his defense? To the last question, I doubt it unless he brings techniques from LAD & continues to work on them. Can Cartaya become that promising young catcher who can take the bull by the horns & lead? I have a lot of doubts & questions that don't have answers about Cartaya.

Now, Jose Vasquez, nobody knows about him. The fact that LAD targeted him, gives him merit. This kinda has a Cave/ Gil feeling. Except Cave was a MLB-ready cOF (never a CF sub that they claimed) & Cartaya is a ways away. Hope for a premium position for a unknown. Cave didn't work out, eventually Gil did. Hope Cartaya can work out eventually as at least a backup catcher. But that's all it is, hope. Time will only tell if LAD can develop Vasquez into a successful MLB pitcher.

[Doctor Gast]

On paper, this looks like a great move, a once top prospect for a nobody in the DSL. Cartaya used to be on my catcher prospect dream list. Power was his calling card & defense was his weakness. He fell off everybody's list when he couldn't hit in the high MiLB. Why was he so terrible? Did pitchers find his "kryptonite"? Was it because of his chronic back problems? Maybe a combination of both? Why did LAD pass on Cartaya for unknown Feduccia? All these are red flags. Can Cartaya adjust to AAA & if so how long would it take for him to adjust to MLB? Can he overcome his chronic back pain? To limit his performance & playing time. Can he improve his defense? To the last question, I doubt it unless he brings techniques from LAD & continues to work on them. Can Cartaya become that promising young catcher who can take the bull by the horns & lead? I have a lot of doubts & questions that don't have answers about Cartaya.

Now, Jose Vasquez, nobody knows about him. The fact that LAD targeted him, gives him merit. This kinda has a Cave/ Gil feeling. Except Cave was a MLB-ready cOF (never a CF sub that they claimed) & Cartaya is a ways away. Hope for a premium position for a unknown. Cave didn't work out, eventually Gil did. Hope Cartaya can work out eventually as at least a backup catcher. But that's all it is, hope. Time will only tell if LAD can develop Vasquez into a successful MLB pitcher.

[Doctor Gast]

On paper, this looks like a great move, a once top prospect for a nobody in the DSL. Cartaya used to be on my catcher prospect dream list. Power was his calling card & defense was his weakness. He fell off everybody's list when he couldn't hit in the high MiLB. Why was he so terrible? Did pitchers find his "kryptonite"? Was it because of his chronic back problems? Maybe a combination of both? Why did LAD pass on Cartaya for unknown Feduccia? All these are red flags. Can Cartaya adjust to AAA & if so how long would it take for him to adjust to MLB? Can he overcome his chronic back pain? To limit his performance & playing time. Can he improve his defense? To the last question, I doubt it unless he brings techniques from LAD & continues to work on them. Can Cartaya become that promising young catcher who can take the bull by the horns & lead? I have a lot of doubts & questions that don't have answers about Cartaya.

Now, Jose Vasquez, nobody knows about him. The fact that LAD targeted him, gives him merit. This kinda has a Cave/ Gil feeling. Except Cave was a MLB-ready cOF (never a CF sub that they claimed) & Cartaya is a ways away. Hope for a premium position for a unknown. Cave didn't work out, eventually Gil did. Hope Cartaya can work out eventually as at least a backup catcher. But that's all it is, hope. Time will only tell if LAD can develop Vasquez into a successful MLB pitcher.

[Doctor Gast]

On paper, this looks like a great move, a once top prospect for a nobody in the DSL. Cartaya used to be on my catcher prospect dream list. Power was his calling card & defense was his weakness. He fell off everybody's list when he couldn't hit in the high MiLB. Why was he so terrible? Did pitchers find his "kryptonite"? Was it because of his chronic back problems? Maybe a combination of both? Why did LAD pass on Cartaya for unknown Feduccia? All these are red flags. Can Cartaya adjust to AAA & if so how long would it take for him to adjust to MLB? Can he overcome his chronic back pain? To limit his performance & playing time. Can he improve his defense? To the last question, I doubt it unless he brings techniques from LAD & continues to work on them. Can Cartaya become that promising young catcher who can take the bull by the horns & lead? I have a lot of doubts & questions that don't have answers about Cartaya.

Now, Jose Vasquez, nobody knows about him. The fact that LAD targeted him, gives him merit. This kinda has a Cave/ Gil feeling. Except Cave was a MLB-ready cOF (never a CF sub that they claimed) & Cartaya is a ways away. Hope for a premium position for a unknown. Cave didn't work out, eventually Gil did. Hope Cartaya can work out eventually as at least a backup catcher. But that's all it is, hope. Time will only tell if LAD can develop Vasquez into a successful MLB pitcher.

[mikelink45]

13 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Is Bridgemans good ice cream?  I'm kind of a snob when it comes to ice cream. San Diego has Neiderfranks. Detroit has Ashbys. Seattle has Tillamook via Oregon. Hey. Instead of brain freeze maybe I should take on the best of each city. Road trips planned for 2025 besides Minnesota will hopefully be Atlanta Cinci Cleveland and Sox or Cubs. Sorry to get off topic. Ice cream = kryptonite

Yes - it is very good, but Sebastian Joe's in Minneapolis and Love's in Duluth are the best in MN.   - Leopold's in Savannah is a great place.